JBR, PR and UMI

[BBB167893]

Ad hominem.

But accurate. Everything I said in that, others have already said. Don't kill the messenger.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

WF you are ON it.

What would be needed. What would be needed so as to be able to calmly compose the note and later to be able to move JBR without disturbing occupants or neighbors? These are most challenging aspects of IDI case.

Hmm...

OK answer:

Entry to the house and time in the house while nobody is there. Standard burglar stuff. This is NOT unusual. Happens 100's of times a day. In JBR's case this time is used to learn the house, where stuff is, write the note, fashion the weapons, and find a place to hide during the time the R's are there.

Cord for the neck and wrists, and tape for the mouth are going to work a lot better to quiet/control/restrain JBR than asking her nicely or using a knife or gun. It HAS to be a coincidence for RDI that JR/PR would just so happen to select wrist and neck ligatures as staging, when they are also the exact weapon of choice for an intruder needing to move JBR silently.

 

[BBB167893]

If JonBenét was hit on the head first there would be some length of time between the time you would even think of staging this crime - then you would have to go out and you would have to find duct tape, you would have to find cord and you would have to construct a garrote and you would have to tie her hands, and you would have to bring her down into the basement.

Precisely. Perhaps anywhere from 20 to 60 minutes? Hint hint...

That would have taken all that time to do this, there would have been massive bleeding.

Oh, really? Are you so sure about that? Because I'm sure not! Neither is Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, who said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

So, it's ludicrous even to think the head blow came first.

Is it, now?

LOU SMIT - Somebody brutally bludgeoned JonBenét that night. This is a brutal massive head wound. Head wounds normally bleed very profusely. If someone is hit on the head with any force at all it will either swell or it will bruise or it will bleed. In the case of JonBenét, even the coroner did not see a head wound. There was no swelling, there was no bleeding that was visible, there was no bruising.

This from a man who admits he never even spoke with Drs. Spitz, Wright or Brega. His reasoning for not doing so should give anyone who fancies themselves objective pause.

Parents don't kill in that manner. They bash, they throw the child down, they hit them on the head and they do things of that nature.

AHEM!

Garroting requires a deliberation, you have to think about it, you have to throw the rope around the neck. In this particular case you had to create an exact kind of knot, he had to twist the knot, all while that child is still alive. Most of the time that's a sexual kind of killing.

All of that assumes the perp knows their victim IS still alive.

BOB RUSSELL - We spent five or six hours going through some of the evidence and the pictures he has and at that time I became convinced that the Ramseys didn't do this.

Given his source, I'd trust that about as far as I can throw an aircraft carrier.

Russel's view is widely respected. He's an expert on violent crimes against children. He was spokesman for the US National District Attorney's Association on the subject.

Then he ought to know better.

Super, remove the request you attributed to me.

Sure thing, even though you didn't say "please."

NARRATOR - Since then, Mike Dobersen has conducted experiments on anaesthetized pigs. The Tazer stun gun exactly replicated the injuries on JonBenét and the distance, 3.5 centimeters, between those injuries.

That's wrong. The measurements on Cutter's website specifically show that they do not match. Moreover, Doberson's credibility is about zero in this regard, and that's being generous. He couldn't recognize those marks on a body he actually SAW. You expect me to believe he's got a stranglehold on this one?

First of all, it was done in a very calm and controlled way. The person was not writing in panic. I have interviewed many many murderers - and even psychopaths, after a murder they're extremely agitated. It is very difficult for them even to sit down. In my estimation there is just absolutely no way that they could have written that note after that murder. I believe that this note was written before the murder.

He could have said all of that at the meeting with the FBI when they said the exact opposite. He said NOTHING. You're whistling in the wind, Fang. MurriFlower and madeleine talk about credibility problems on MY side? That's NOTHING compared to what I could do with these people, if not for the fact that I already HAVE, in a big way.

 

[BBB167893]

Entry to the house and time in the house while nobody is there. Standard burglar stuff. This is NOT unusual. Happens 100's of times a day. In JBR's case this time is used to learn the house, where stuff is, write the note, fashion the weapons, and find a place to hide during the time the R's are there.

And not leave a trace of himself in all that time?

It HAS to be a coincidence for RDI that JR/PR would just so happen to select wrist and neck ligatures as staging, when they are also the exact weapon of choice for an intruder needing to move JBR silently.

Not only does it not HAVE to be a coincidence, I don't think it was, just for the reasons you suggest.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And not leave a trace of himself in all that time?

NP.

Just some scant DNA in some telltale spots. Oh, and the handwriting.

Not only does it not HAVE to be a coincidence, I don't think it was, just for the reasons you suggest.

You're reverse engineering my ideas, I think. Because I don't think you've ever accused JR and PR of devising a fiendish method for moving JBR silently, simply to appear as having done so.

 

[MurriFlower]

SuperDave;

Oh, really? Are you so sure about that? Because I'm sure not! Neither is Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, who said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

Well, there you go. I thought it was established that there was evidence found at autopsy of bleeding in the brain! What we were talking about was external signs - swelling, bleeding (from the wound as well as nose, ears) and bruising. What does Dr Brega say about a head bash, 8 inches long, with no external signs then?

 

[BBB167893]

Just some scant DNA in some telltale spots. Oh, and the handwriting.

The first is iffy at best, and you KNOW my feelings on the second!

You're reverse engineering my ideas, I think. Because I don't think you've ever accused JR and PR of devising a fiendish method for moving JBR silently, simply to appear as having done so.

You're partly right: I never have done that. I should have been more specific. You say that's what a kidnapper would have done. That's why they did it that way: because that's "what a criminal would have done." They do it on TV that way, right?

 

[BBB167893]

Well, there you go. I thought it was established that there was evidence found at autopsy of bleeding in the brain!

There WAS. My POINT is that even if there wasn't, it's foolish to assume that it came last.

What we were talking about was external signs - swelling, bleeding (from the wound as well as nose, ears) and bruising.

That's not the impression I got from Fang's post, but okay.

What does Dr Brega say about a head bash, 8 inches long, with no external signs then?

Not a thing. But Drs. Spitz, Henry, Wright and Lee have made their findings:

--Wright: "She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled."

--Henry: "Basically a blood clot in the brain."

--Spitz: "Someone took a lot of time to stage sexual assault and strangulation after she was unconscious."

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The first is iffy at best, and you KNOW my feelings on the second!

The first is more than IDI could've hoped for. Additional DNA to be found at the crime scene that matches the underwear DNA would've caused you some jawdrop issues if you knew it back in the old factory worker days.

Your feelings on the second are not relevant. PR passed the test that was put to her under the worst possible conditions. It was BPD's own conditions on their own turf. That is, she gave as she agreed to give many exemplars, and they didn't turn around and arrest her for the murder. Thats really when the case for RDI went out the window and hasn't been back since.

You're partly right: I never have done that. I should have been more specific. You say that's what a kidnapper would have done. That's why they did it that way: because that's "what a criminal would have done." They do it on TV that way, right?

Neck and wrist ligatures are the weapons of choice for any intruder faced with the problem of moving JBR silently.

 

[BBB167893]

The first is more than IDI could've hoped for.

It still is, if you get my meaning.

Additional DNA to be found at the crime scene that matches the underwear DNA would've caused you some jawdrop issues if you knew it back in the old factory worker days.

If only because I wasn't aware of the problems with the science.

Your feelings on the second are not relevant.

We'll see about that...

PR passed the test that was put to her under the worst possible conditions.

Not even CLOSE, HOTYH.

It was BPD's own conditions on their own turf. That is, she gave as she agreed to give many exemplars, and they didn't turn around and arrest her for the murder.

Read what Pete Hofstrom had to say, HOTYH. It's not a straight shot from one to the other, not by a damn sight. madeleine knows what I mean. You present a false scenario. They didn't arrest her because the DA's office wouldn't go for it. Don't take my word for it either. The police were quite confident with what they had in regard to the handwriting. The DA was looking for reasons not to pursue a case. Like I said, don't take my word for it. It's in the books, and not just mine.

Thats really when the case for RDI went out the window and hasn't been back since.

That's nonsense.

Neck and wrist ligatures are the weapons of choice for any intruder faced with the problem of moving JBR silently.

I doubt THIS kind are. You could have at least addressed what I had to say.

 

[MurriFlower]

Super Dave:There WAS. My POINT is that even if there wasn't, it's foolish to assume that it came last.

Nup, you said Dr Brega was comenting only on bleeding inside the brain.

"We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

Super Dave: That's not the impression I got from Fang's post, but okay

.
OK, well, I won't speak for Fang then, but I was talking about the lack of swelling, bruising, bleeding externally. I'm pretty sure you have previously tried to explain this away by saying it was the 'shock' that caused blood to go somewhere else? This doesn't explain why other head injuries (falls, motor vehicle accidents, etc) where 'shock' is also present, do swell, bruise and bleed externally. I feel sure that the reason for the absence of these external signs could only be that the bash and strangle were at/near the same time.

Super Dave: Not a thing. But Drs. Spitz, Henry, Wright and Lee have made their findings:

--Wright: "She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled."

--Henry: "Basically a blood clot in the brain."

--Spitz: "Someone took a lot of time to stage sexual assault and strangulation after she was unconscious."

Well, you quoted Dr Brega as 'the expert', so if she didn't comment I suppose it's cause she wasn't asked that question.

Whether these others were correct or if their quotes were taken out of context is unknown.

Perhaps some of these people are attributing her lack of struggle to being unconscious due to the head bash, when it may have been induced by GHB.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Read what Pete Hofstrom had to say, HOTYH. It's not a straight shot from one to the other, not by a damn sight. madeleine knows what I mean. You present a false scenario. They didn't arrest her because the DA's office wouldn't go for it. Don't take my word for it either. The police were quite confident with what they had in regard to the handwriting. The DA was looking for reasons not to pursue a case. Like I said, don't take my word for it. It's in the books, and not just mine..

I don't think you really understand, do you?

Put yourself in PR's shoes. She's agreed to provide exemplars under BPD's terms. This includes verbatim RN word for word, right and left handed. She does so, and in doing so is aware that BPD will churn and churn on it for days and days.

A month goes by and no arrest. Dont you get it? IT DOESN'T MATTER WHY THERE WAS NO ARREST. PR and her attorneys agreed to place herself in jeopardy by providing handwriting samples, and no action was taken against her as a result. This IMPLIED the handwriting analysis ended in her favor, which killed RDI outright. It doesn't matter if there was a positive handwriting match but the DA wouldn't go for it, or any other story.

 

[BBB167893]

Nup, you said Dr Brega was comenting only on bleeding inside the brain.

Yes, we've established that.

OK, well, I won't speak for Fang then, but I was talking about the lack of swelling, bruising, bleeding externally. I'm pretty sure you have previously tried to explain this away by saying it was the 'shock' that caused blood to go somewhere else?

Something like that.

This doesn't explain why other head injuries (falls, motor vehicle accidents, etc) where 'shock' is also present, do swell, bruise and bleed externally.

Who says it has to? As I've said many times, head wounds are extremely quirky.

I feel sure that the reason for the absence of these external signs could only be that the bash and strangle were at/near the same time.

I understand that.

Well, you quoted Dr Brega as 'the expert', so if she didn't comment I suppose it's cause she wasn't asked that question.

I didn't say she was "THE expert." And as far as I know, she may not have been asked that question, or she may have and the paper didn't print it. That wouldn't shock me either.

Whether these others were correct or if their quotes were taken out of context is unknown.

I think I posted the larger ones elsewhere not too long ago.

Perhaps some of these people are attributing her lack of struggle to being unconscious due to the head bash, when it may have been induced by GHB.

MurriFlower, there are some places even I won't go.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think you really understand, do you?

Back at you, brother.

Put yourself in PR's shoes. She's agreed to provide exemplars under BPD's terms. This includes verbatim RN word for word, right and left handed. She does so, and in doing so is aware that BPD will churn and churn on it for days and days.

One, she didn't "agree." Non-testimonial evidence would have been gotten one way or another. Two, considering she had her own experts at that point, I wouldn't have been too worried. Three, this doesn't take into account a lot of other things. Just off the top of my head, the fact that I'm not using the same pen, which would make a big difference.

A month goes by and no arrest. Dont you get it?

I "get it" more than you realize.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHY THERE WAS NO ARREST.

On the contrary! It goes to the very HEART of the matter.

PR and her attorneys agreed to place herself in jeopardy by providing handwriting samples, and no action was taken against her as a result.

I assert that there would have been anywhere else.

This IMPLIED the handwriting analysis ended in her favor, which killed RDI outright.

Read PMPT and tell me that. Let me ask you something, HOTYH: if the police had been investigating an indigent laborer who couldn't afford the kind of legal heavy-hitters the Rs had and his results were the same as PR's do you think for a MINUTE that the DA would have hesitated to throw the book at him? Not on your life!

It doesn't matter if there was a positive handwriting match but the DA wouldn't go for it, or any other story.

"Doesn't matter?" I wish I could say things like that with a straight face.

 

[WHITEFANG]

What we were talking about was external signs - swelling, bleeding (from the wound as well as nose, ears) and bruising.

Wecht stated when a person's head is damaged like Joni's was, at the top, the heart keeps beating, carrying blood from the carotid arteries to the brain for some time. The coroner found one and one half teaspoons of blood, much less than if her death hadn't already occurred or was imminent.

"If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."

Wecht's statement is consistent with those of others' who say they have seen skull fractures without considerable bleeding or swelling.

 

[BBB167893]

Wecht stated when a person's head is damaged like Joni's was, at the top, the heart keeps beating, carrying blood from the carotid arteries to the brain for some time. The coroner found one and one half teaspoons of blood, much less than if her death hadn't already occurred or was imminent.

Does that take into account severe shock? I'm just asking here.

Let me know when you get around to some of Wecht's other statements, That should prove most interesting.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"Doesn't matter?" I wish I could say things like that with a straight face.

I don't think you understand. RDI's fate was sealed when the BPD couldn't put the ransom note pen in PR's hand. They tried to, but they failed. The implications are that PR didn't write the note.

Who needs DNA?

 

[WHITEFANG]

SUPER

Read PMPT and tell me that. Let me ask you something, HOTYH: if the police had been investigating an indigent laborer who couldn't afford the kind of legal heavy-hitters the Rs had and his results were the same as PR's do you think for a MINUTE that the DA would have hesitated to throw the book at him? Not on your life!

"Even within forensic disciplines that are more firmly grounded in science, evidence is often made to sound more precise than it should. For example, analysts will testify that hairs from a crime scene “match” or “are consistent with” defendants’ hair – but because scientific research on validity and reliability of hair analysis is lacking, they have no way of knowing how rare these similarities are, so there is no way to know how meaningful this evidence is." Innocence Project

There have been 254 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States

• 17 of the 254 people exonerated through DNA served time on death row.

• The average length of time served by exonerees is 13 years. The total number of years served is approximately 3,240.

• The true suspects and/or perpetrators have been identified in 111 of the DNA exoneration cases.

Since 1989, there have been tens of thousands of cases where prime suspects were identified and pursued—until DNA testing (prior to conviction) proved that they were wrongly accused.

Leading Causes of Wrongful Convictions

These DNA exoneration cases have provided irrefutable proof that wrongful convictions are not isolated or rare events, but arise from systemic defects that can be precisely identified and addressed. For more than 15 years, the Innocence Project has worked to pinpoint these trends. IP

 

[WHITEFANG]

Does that take into account severe shock? I'm just asking here. SD

Ask Wecht.

 

[WHITEFANG]

One, she didn't "agree." Non-testimonial evidence would have been gotten one way or another. SD

How?

Two, considering she had her own experts at that point, I wouldn't have been too worried. SD

You are not suggesting they were at fault for hiring the best quality legal help they could afford? Maybe as good a question would be, "Shouldn't our system of justice guarantee an equivalent degree of expertise on par with the best in the profession, at least in capital murder cases, to anyone under investigation?"

Three, this doesn't take into account a lot of other things. Just off the top of my head, the fact that I'm not using the same pen, which would make a big difference. SD

Did they charge her with a crime? Did she have to provide them with a sample?