John Ramsey on Oprah

[twinkiesmom]

Didn't Phil Spector have unknown DNA on his genitalia at the time of the Lana Clarkson murder that had to have been picked up from a public restroom (based on a firm timeline)?

It occurred to me that males (especially young ones) tend to pee on the seat...It seems likely they could shed epithelial cells in urine. I wonder if that could be the source of the unknown DNA? It's not like JBR could have hovered and squat...she sat on the White toilet seat that had been used by everyone at the party.

 

[DeeDee249]

And as slack as PR was that possibility would not suprise me at all. JBR could have grabbed the size 12's in a rush to go outside and play with her new bike, put on the longjohns under whatever she top pants she wore during the day on the 25th. When PR got into the argument with JB about wanting her to wear the red top to match mom, she could have stormed off and said, "Fine then dress yourself..." JB could easily have taken off the top pants and replaced them with the ones she wore to the Whites party and only bothered to change her top after adding the top pants to the longjohns and size 12's. Also, the long johns would have held the much too big size 12 closer to her body so they would not have felt as uncomfortable....

The size 12s had to have come from the unwrapped gifts in the basement, the ones that actually appear in crime scene photos. If they had been available to JBR to use, the other 6 pairs would have been found and taken into evidence along with ALL the rest of her underwear. There were no other size 12s. There would have been no reason for the Rs to hide/remove them- if they had not had some link to the crime or staging. So the fact they were not there suggests PR is lying about giving Jenny's gift to JBR instead.
The fact that the Rs sent along a pack of size 12 months (or was it years?) later means that they or Aunt P DID remove them from the house before LE gathered evidence there. It has never been made public as far as I know, if the Rs sent 6 pairs (with the "Wednesday" pair that was found on JBR still in custody as evidence) or the complete set of 7 pairs, obviously proving that this was a new set and not the original set PR admitted to purchasing for Jenny. Would they really be that stupid?
As far as the small amount of blood (a few drops) on the panties not corresponding to the significant amount of blood that would have necessitated wiping down of her thighs/pubic area- obviously her panties had been pulled down for the vaginal assault, no matter which pair she had been wearing. The long johns had no blood- meaning either they had been pulled off completely, or the amount of blood that dripped after wiping was not enough to stain the long johns, only to stain the panties.

 

[angelwngs]

The size 12s had to have come from the unwrapped gifts in the basement, the ones that actually appear in crime scene photos. If they had been available to JBR to use, the other 6 pairs would have been found and taken into evidence along with ALL the rest of her underwear. There were no other size 12s. There would have been no reason for the Rs to hide/remove them- if they had not had some link to the crime or staging. So the fact they were not there suggests PR is lying about giving Jenny's gift to JBR instead.
The fact that the Rs sent along a pack of size 12 months (or was it years?) later means that they or Aunt P DID remove them from the house before LE gathered evidence there. It has never been made public as far as I know, if the Rs sent 6 pairs (with the "Wednesday" pair that was found on JBR still in custody as evidence) or the complete set of 7 pairs, obviously proving that this was a new set and not the original set PR admitted to purchasing for Jenny. Would they really be that stupid?
As far as the small amount of blood (a few drops) on the panties not corresponding to the significant amount of blood that would have necessitated wiping down of her thighs/pubic area- obviously her panties had been pulled down for the vaginal assault, no matter which pair she had been wearing. The long johns had no blood- meaning either they had been pulled off completely, or the amount of blood that dripped after wiping was not enough to stain the long johns, only to stain the panties.

Not if there was only one size 12 pair of undies in the house. They could have been a nieces or any child who spent the night there or in Mich. and accidently left the undies behind.

Didn't the R's later send a brand new pack of size 12 undies to Boulder from Atlanta many months after the murder??? (or did my mind just invent that...???...) If so was the "Wednesday" pair missing from that pack???

 

[angelwngs]

There is GREAT irony in John's stating on Oprah that pagents were not a big part of JB's life. His points to prove this were that JB did many other things besides pagents. He said she took violin lessons, took piano lessons, and rock climbing lessons. Of all those things he mentioned, with the exception maybe of 'rock climbing lessons', (which in DOI Patsy says they had just 'signed JB up for rock climbing lessons, NOT that she had actually participated in any lessons prior to her death), ALL of these activities could and most assuredly would have been used in the talent portion of PAGENTS! It is a bold faced lie for JR to say that pagents were NOT Patsy's primary focus with JB's life and he more than proved it when he listed all of those extra curricular activities in which she was involved!

 

[DeeDee249]

Not if there was only one size 12 pair of undies in the house. They could have been a nieces or any child who spent the night there or in Mich. and accidently left the undies behind.

But PR admits to purchasing a set for Jenny just a few weeks before on her shopping trip to NYC. According to her, there should have been 6 other pairs in the house. None were found, save for the pair on JBR. If any had been left by a friend of JBR, they would not be that size, and a coincidence that they were the same as panties purchased by PR from Bloomingdale's would not go unnoticed. I don't believe it was explored as an option.
Actually, in the interview where PR is asked about those Bloomies panties on her daughter, it is discussed as their being part of the set bought by PR from Bloomingdale's in New York.

 

[JMO8778]

There is GREAT irony in John's stating on Oprah that pagents were not a big part of JB's life. His points to prove this were that JB did many other things besides pagents. He said she took violin lessons, took piano lessons, and rock climbing lessons. Of all those things he mentioned, with the exception maybe of 'rock climbing lessons', (which in DOI Patsy says they had just 'signed JB up for rock climbing lessons, NOT that she had actually participated in any lessons prior to her death), ALL of these activities could and most assuredly would have been used in the talent portion of PAGENTS! It is a bold faced lie for JR to say that pagents were NOT Patsy's primary focus with JB's life and he more than proved it when he listed all of those extra curricular activities in which she was involved!

indeed,and the fact he denies that the pageants were being so overdone,is suspect,imo..it lends credence to the suspicions that Patsy was dressing JB up to look much older than she was for reasons outside the pageants themselves.otherwise,what would be so harmful in admitting Patsy had put a lot of investment and time into them?

 

[angelwngs]

But PR admits to purchasing a set for Jenny just a few weeks before on her shopping trip to NYC. According to her, there should have been 6 other pairs in the house. None were found, save for the pair on JBR. If any had been left by a friend of JBR, they would not be that size, and a coincidence that they were the same as panties purchased by PR from Bloomingdale's would not go unnoticed. I don't believe it was explored as an option.
Actually, in the interview where PR is asked about those Bloomies panties on her daughter, it is discussed as their being part of the set bought by PR from Bloomingdale's in New York.

Yep. I know all that. But since when did PR tell the truth?

 

[Ames]

But in that case, wouldn't this mean JonBenet had been wearing the far too large size 12 Bloomies underpants to the Whites' party also?

No, she could have had another pair of panties on. at the party...but, the Touch DNA could have transferred to the size 12 Bloomies, after John or Patsy put them on her, after the accident.... and pulled up the long johns. It was just a thought...

 

[Ames]

Didn't Phil Spector have unknown DNA on his genitalia at the time of the Lana Clarkson murder that had to have been picked up from a public restroom (based on a firm timeline)?

It occurred to me that males (especially young ones) tend to pee on the seat...It seems likely they could shed epithelial cells in urine. I wonder if that could be the source of the unknown DNA? It's not like JBR could have hovered and squat...she sat on the White toilet seat that had been used by everyone at the party.

Excellent point! The thought of Phil Spector's genitalia makes me want to throw up, though.

 

[UKGuy]

The size 12s had to have come from the unwrapped gifts in the basement, the ones that actually appear in crime scene photos. If they had been available to JBR to use, the other 6 pairs would have been found and taken into evidence along with ALL the rest of her underwear. There were no other size 12s. There would have been no reason for the Rs to hide/remove them- if they had not had some link to the crime or staging. So the fact they were not there suggests PR is lying about giving Jenny's gift to JBR instead.
The fact that the Rs sent along a pack of size 12 months (or was it years?) later means that they or Aunt P DID remove them from the house before LE gathered evidence there. It has never been made public as far as I know, if the Rs sent 6 pairs (with the "Wednesday" pair that was found on JBR still in custody as evidence) or the complete set of 7 pairs, obviously proving that this was a new set and not the original set PR admitted to purchasing for Jenny. Would they really be that stupid?
As far as the small amount of blood (a few drops) on the panties not corresponding to the significant amount of blood that would have necessitated wiping down of her thighs/pubic area- obviously her panties had been pulled down for the vaginal assault, no matter which pair she had been wearing. The long johns had no blood- meaning either they had been pulled off completely, or the amount of blood that dripped after wiping was not enough to stain the long johns, only to stain the panties.

DeeDee249,

The size 12s had to have come from the unwrapped gifts in the basement, the ones that actually appear in crime scene photos.

Maybe , maybe not. Remember John was in and out of the wine-cellar transferring xmas-gifts to his plane, So if there were any size-12's in there he might know about them since Patsy may have said just leave those behind?

If you re-read Patsy's question and answer session you will find that she suggested that two packs of size-12's were purchased at Bloomingdales. One for Jenny and one for JonBenet. Later during the interview she professes memory loss repeatedly for being unable to restate whether she purchase one or two packs of Bloomingdales size-12's!

So this is when the investigators demolish Patsy's story regarding JonBenet and the size-12's. The interviewer asks Patsy if there had been two packs of Bloomingdales size-12's purchased then there should be another pack of size-12's lying about the house? Patsy agrees, then she is told that there are no size-12's in JonBenet's panty drawer.

Now the question of interest to those who think that the size-12's originated in the basement is: why was the remaining 6-pairs of size-12's removed?

Also if Patsy simply returns 6-pairs then she is returning crime-scene evidence, but what if she returned a full pack of seven, unopened, later claiming this must be the second set I purchased for Jenny?

So someone removed the size-12's theoretically all 13 pairs, yet Patsy claims she placed 7 pairs into JonBenet's panty drawer. Now Patsy was the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, as some claim, then why should she tell the investigators that she placed 7-pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales into JonBenet's panty drawer? She would know in advance that they were gone?

So the big question is why bother to remove 6-pairs of size-12's? This a staging error, so big the Ramsey's later returned a pack of size-12's.

The conclusion that I draw from the above is that Patsy was not person who removed the crime-scene evidence, or even requested it be removed by some other third party.

e.g. Patsy during her interview is lying through her teeth, ignorant that the size-12's had been removed from the crime-scene, possibly right up until the point where she is gently reminded that if two packs of size-12's were purchased then another pack should be elsewhere in the house?

 

[UKGuy]

But PR admits to purchasing a set for Jenny just a few weeks before on her shopping trip to NYC. According to her, there should have been 6 other pairs in the house. None were found, save for the pair on JBR. If any had been left by a friend of JBR, they would not be that size, and a coincidence that they were the same as panties purchased by PR from Bloomingdale's would not go unnoticed. I don't believe it was explored as an option.
Actually, in the interview where PR is asked about those Bloomies panties on her daughter, it is discussed as their being part of the set bought by PR from Bloomingdale's in New York.

DeeDee249,

Actually, in the interview where PR is asked about those Bloomies panties on her daughter, it is discussed as their being part of the set bought by PR from Bloomingdale's in New York.

Patsy states on more than one occassion in that interview that I/we took the decision to place the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.

 

[UKGuy]

But in that case, wouldn't this mean JonBenet had been wearing the far too large size 12 Bloomies underpants to the Whites' party also?

rashomon,
Maybe , maybe not. If she wore the longjohns to the White's then fibers from the longjohns would be found on the inside of the black velvet pants that JonBenet wore to party.

Discoverey of such fibers would demolish Patsy's statement about undressing JonBenet for bed and placing the longjohns clean onto JonBenet.


.

 

[BBB167893]

rashomon,
Maybe , maybe not. If she wore the longjohns to the White's then fibers from the longjohns would be found on the inside of the black velvet pants that JonBenet wore to party.

Discoverey of such fibers would demolish Patsy's statement about undressing JonBenet for bed and placing the longjohns clean onto JonBenet.


.

And to my knowledge, they never performed that test.

 

[UKGuy]

And to my knowledge, they never performed that test.

SuperDave,
Well they still have her black velvet pants in storage. So this theory can be tested at any point. Also Holly Smith checked all JonBenet's clothing. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material. My guess is that fiber analysis will have been done?



.

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave,
Well they still have her black velvet pants in storage. So this theory can be tested at any point. Also Holly Smith checked all JonBenet's clothing. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material. My guess is that fiber analysis will have been done?



.

I'm just saying I don't know.

 

[angelwngs]

DeeDee249,

Maybe , maybe not. Remember John was in and out of the wine-cellar transferring xmas-gifts to his plane, So if there were any size-12's in there he might know about them since Patsy may have said just leave those behind?

If you re-read Patsy's question and answer session you will find that she suggested that two packs of size-12's were purchased at Bloomingdales. One for Jenny and one for JonBenet. Later during the interview she professes memory loss repeatedly for being unable to restate whether she purchase one or two packs of Bloomingdales size-12's!

So this is when the investigators demolish Patsy's story regarding JonBenet and the size-12's. The interviewer asks Patsy if there had been two packs of Bloomingdales size-12's purchased then there should be another pack of size-12's lying about the house? Patsy agrees, then she is told that there are no size-12's in JonBenet's panty drawer.

Now the question of interest to those who think that the size-12's originated in the basement is: why was the remaining 6-pairs of size-12's removed?

Also if Patsy simply returns 6-pairs then she is returning crime-scene evidence, but what if she returned a full pack of seven, unopened, later claiming this must be the second set I purchased for Jenny?

So someone removed the size-12's theoretically all 13 pairs, yet Patsy claims she placed 7 pairs into JonBenet's panty drawer. Now Patsy was the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, as some claim, then why should she tell the investigators that she placed 7-pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales into JonBenet's panty drawer? She would know in advance that they were gone?

So the big question is why bother to remove 6-pairs of size-12's? This a staging error, so big the Ramsey's later returned a pack of size-12's.

The conclusion that I draw from the above is that Patsy was not person who removed the crime-scene evidence, or even requested it be removed by some other third party.

e.g. Patsy during her interview is lying through her teeth, ignorant that the size-12's had been removed from the crime-scene, possibly right up until the point where she is gently reminded that if two packs of size-12's were purchased then another pack should be elsewhere in the house?

:clap::clap::clap::clap: Excellent....

 

[Ames]

And as slack as PR was that possibility would not suprise me at all. JBR could have grabbed the size 12's in a rush to go outside and play with her new bike, put on the longjohns under whatever she top pants she wore during the day on the 25th. When PR got into the argument with JB about wanting her to wear the red top to match mom, she could have stormed off and said, "Fine then dress yourself..." JB could easily have taken off the top pants and replaced them with the ones she wore to the Whites party and only bothered to change her top after adding the top pants to the longjohns and size 12's. Also, the long johns would have held the much too big size 12 closer to her body so they would not have felt as uncomfortable....

That is possible, but if she wore those size 12's to the party, then there goes the bedwetting theory, which is what I have believed in all of these years. Does anyone know if those size 12 bloomies had urine on them, like the longjohns did? If so, then maybe the urine, which was thought to have been released post mortem, actually was released when she wet the bed. Here's a thought....I do believe that JB was wearing that Red turtleneck when she went to bed that night, as Patsy has previously stated, before changing her story. What if she really did wear the size 12 bloomies and the longjohns under her velvet pants, to the party...and Patsy just changed her shirt and left the longjohns (and size 12 Bloomies) on her, and this is what she was wearing when she went to bed...and wet the bed. And this is the urine that was found. I have always thought that somehow JB fell into the side of the tub, or toilet...as Patsy was angrily trying to remove that turtleneck, possibly slinging JB around with the shirt, as she tried to pull if off, with JB's head still stuck in the collar of it. JB's head came out...and forcibly hit the tub, toilet or sink. But, there would have had to have been urine on the size 12 panties, for her wearing them to the WHite's and later to bed to make any sense.

 

[UKGuy]

That is possible, but if she wore those size 12's to the party, then there goes the bedwetting theory, which is what I have believed in all of these years. Does anyone know if those size 12 bloomies had urine on them, like the longjohns did? If so, then maybe the urine, which was thought to have been released post mortem, actually was released when she wet the bed. Here's a thought....I do believe that JB was wearing that Red turtleneck when she went to bed that night, as Patsy has previously stated, before changing her story. What if she really did wear the size 12 bloomies and the longjohns under her velvet pants, to the party...and Patsy just changed her shirt and left the longjohns (and size 12 Bloomies) on her, and this is what she was wearing when she went to bed...and wet the bed. And this is the urine that was found. I have always thought that somehow JB fell into the side of the tub, or toilet...as Patsy was angrily trying to remove that turtleneck, possibly slinging JB around with the shirt, as she tried to pull if off, with JB's head still stuck in the collar of it. JB's head came out...and forcibly hit the tub, toilet or sink. But, there would have had to have been urine on the size 12 panties, for her wearing them to the WHite's and later to bed to make any sense.

Ames.
The Autopsy Report reads:

...

The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over
the crotch area and anterior legs. No defects are identified. Beneath
the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the
words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine
stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas
of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.

 

[JMO8778]

:clap::clap::clap::clap: Excellent....

it is,UK has a real knack for that.
I would venture to say Patsy was probably busy otherwise while John finished up w the staging,writing the ransom note would be my guess.

 

[Ames]

Ames.
The Autopsy Report reads:

Thank you so much UKGuy! I couldn't remember. So, what if she DID wear those big panties to the Whites..with those longjohns under her velvet pants. And when she got home, and walked in on her own....Patsy helped her change into the red turtleneck and removed the velvet pants. She then later went to bed...after her pineapple snack of course. The pineapple is probably what made her wet the bed in the first place. So, maybe she wasn't changed into the longjohns or the size 12 panties afterall...maybe she wore them both to the White's party, and that is where they were contaminated by someone elses DNA...maybe someone that helped her go potty. A six year old wouldn't be able to pull long johns down without help...IMO. I would also like to know how those velvet pants fastened...zipper in back? front? or elastic waist? My 6 year old owns several pair of slacks that zip in the back...if JB's was like this, then she would have had to have help getting those down too, along with the longjohns. I would like to know if every single person at the White's party gave DNA samples.