John Ramsey on Oprah

[Ames]

SleuthyGal,

Thats one theory, another theory is that she was molested and the size-12's were placed on her after the size-6's containing incriminating forensic evidence were removed. Another theory which combines elements of the latter two, is that there was a bedwetting incident, but that the sexual assault and size-12's are on her to mask prior abuse? The clue once again are the size-12's, since no intruder staged or real would consider redressing JonBenet.

The timeline for purchasing the size-12's is simple, they were purchased in November but the Xmas-Gifts were purchased in December and wrapped in FAO Schwartz paper then mailed out to the Ramsey's who then hid them down in the basement, but some people think that the gifts in the basement also contained the size-12's?

See in bottom left of this picture, in the wine-cellar, the Schwartz wrapped gift

A more complete picture:

I do not think Patsy redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, the interview evidence demonstrates this, nor do I think JonBenet redressed her self.

I reckon it was a male member of the Ramsey family who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, only a guy could make such a dumb mistake, Patsy would have known to use a pair of size-6's.


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I totally agree with that. I believe that John did it, too. You are right...ONLY a guy could make such a dumb mistake, with the sizes. (Wait? Aren't YOU a dude?)

Although, I am having second thoughts on whether she was redressed at all. Since I do believe in the bedwetting scenario (I know that you don't), and her longjohns and way too big panties were wet with urine, I wonder how the ME could tell that it was post mortem, or if ANYBODY really CAN tell if the urine stain happened while she was dead or alive? My thought on the touch dna is that she could have POSSIBLY worn those too big bloomies under her longjohns (the longjohns would have kept them up), all under her black velvet pants that she wore to the party. Someone helped her pull her pants, longjohns (because they are so tight) and panties down to go to the bathroom, and that is where the touch DNA came from. As SuperDave says..."I am just spit balling", I will try not to hit anybody in the eye. :crazy:

 

[UKGuy]

I totally agree with that. I believe that John did it, too. You are right...ONLY a guy could make such a dumb mistake, with the sizes. (Wait? Aren't YOU a dude?)

Although, I am having second thoughts on whether she was redressed at all. Since I do believe in the bedwetting scenario (I know that you don't), and her longjohns and way too big panties were wet with urine, I wonder how the ME could tell that it was post mortem, or if ANYBODY really CAN tell if the urine stain happened while she was dead or alive? My thought on the touch dna is that she could have POSSIBLY worn those too big bloomies under her longjohns (the longjohns would have kept them up), all under her black velvet pants that she wore to the party. Someone helped her pull her pants, longjohns (because they are so tight) and panties down to go to the bathroom, and that is where the touch DNA came from. As SuperDave says..."I am just spit balling", I will try not to hit anybody in the eye. :crazy:

Ames,
The assumption is because JonBenet's bladder was empty this was due to a post-mortem release?

To wear size-12's plus longjohns to a party seems a bit extreme, but its possible. Although this one can be decided on by using fiber analysis of both the longjohns and JonBenet's black velvet pants, fibers on both would confirm your theory.


Here's a thought for you, since its fairly certain that Patsy did not redress JonBenet in those size-12's, then why should she redress JonBenet in longjohns at all. I reckon it was the same person who placed the size-12's onto JonBenet who redressed her in the longjohns? I wonder if they tested the longjohns for Patsy's dna, or was this ignored?

Another feature of the size-12's is that I doubt if Burke knew they existed at all, they were purchased in November, even if they were wrapped in the basement for Xmas, why should Burke think of looking amongst Xmas gifts for underwear, instead of looking where he knows he will find some e.g. JonBenet's bathroom dresser?

This leaves John as the person who may have redressed JonBenet in those size-12's?


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[BBB167893]

How did they know exactly? On what day did she purchase them? Which sizes and how many of which sizes? Did she return 1 set? On which day was that? Hence my question about records from the Bloomingdales computers and not from PR's interviews, LE searches or people's recollections.

Okay, I get it.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Okay, I get it.

:highfive:

Yep! I am always interested in data that is not about what a witness or suspect says but info that is independently verifiable for accuracy (or for inaccuracies) and then see how it matches up to what a human said.

 

[PolyGraph]

Sorry guys, not sure which Wednesday it is, but it's either tomorrow or a week from tomorrow. The commerical went by so fast, I missed it. It's a brand new show.

This outta be Rich!!!

 

[SleuthyGal]

And man would I LOVE to sit down with Steve Thomas over a beer or 3 and ask him about a thousand questions and then just listen to everything he has to say. I really think he's an unsung hero in this case (if there is one). He kept his focus right where it should have been--on the victim and on what the evidence was. IMHO, of course.

 

[PolyGraph]

thinaire,
you have to watch, just to see if does some tongue flicking at oprah?


It will probably never go to court now that patsy has passed on, but i am certain it will eventually be revealed for what it is e.g. A coverup. There is big money involved, skeletons etc, so one day the story will be told.


.

hahahaah tongue flicking rothf! He does that rediculously alot

 

[PolyGraph]

I saw the commercial for this and was dumbfounded that Oprah of all people would have John Ramsey (still a person of interest) on her show. Not the sort of thing she is into and was in a line up of shocking new things she was going to have on this new season. Shocking to say the least.

Who knows nedthan, maybe this is her chance to be passive agressive and torture him and he doesnt know whats coming! We wish right?

 

[PolyGraph]

I totally agree with that. I believe that John did it, too. You are right...ONLY a guy could make such a dumb mistake, with the sizes. (Wait? Aren't YOU a dude?)

Although, I am having second thoughts on whether she was redressed at all. Since I do believe in the bedwetting scenario (I know that you don't), and her longjohns and way too big panties were wet with urine, I wonder how the ME could tell that it was post mortem, or if ANYBODY really CAN tell if the urine stain happened while she was dead or alive? My thought on the touch dna is that she could have POSSIBLY worn those too big bloomies under her longjohns (the longjohns would have kept them up), all under her black velvet pants that she wore to the party. Someone helped her pull her pants, longjohns (because they are so tight) and panties down to go to the bathroom, and that is where the touch DNA came from. As SuperDave says..."I am just spit balling", I will try not to hit anybody in the eye. :crazy:

ITA...I believe they are putting too much emphasis on the DNA which could have come from anywhere, whos to say that the DNA did not come off the longjohns and end up in her undies??? DNA can come from anywhere so that is rediculous that they think it HAS GOT TO BE AN INTRUDER just because *a small amount* of DNA was on here so what! Did LE take all of the DNA at the Whites party??? Did they test who the Longjohns were made by, sold from, people who packaged them? Until all of that is done then TR cannot say that it was 100% the intruders DNA. That is so rediculous its such Beurocratic BS that the Ramseys were not charged its not even funny! Any other parents would have hung in the gallows had this happened.

Just an off topic question but who of you all out there wish that instead of the 'angry lynch mob protestors' that are in front of the Anthony's house, wish that they were in front of Ramsey's house??? lol

 

[PolyGraph]

And man would I LOVE to sit down with Steve Thomas over a beer or 3 and ask him about a thousand questions and then just listen to everything he has to say. I really think he's an unsung hero in this case (if there is one). He kept his focus right where it should have been--on the victim and on what the evidence was. IMHO, of course.

Steve Thomas I wish I could do this::blowkiss:

 

[angelwngs]

And man would I LOVE to sit down with Steve Thomas over a beer or 3 and ask him about a thousand questions and then just listen to everything he has to say. I really think he's an unsung hero in this case (if there is one). He kept his focus right where it should have been--on the victim and on what the evidence was. IMHO, of course.

Someone contact him and lets all chip in fo his fee and meet him at the hotel confrerence room of his choosing and do just that...

That would be nice!

 

[DeeDee249]

PR bought the Bloomies panties (either 1 or 2 sets) during her November shopping trip to NY (where JBR was along) and made a second trip to NY in December where she purchased gifts at FAO Schwartz. It is entirely possible that the size 12s bought for Jenny were included with and wrapped up in a gift from FAO Schwartz. Even if the gift had arrived already wrapped, there is no reason why the panties couldn't have been added later, simply by carefully opening the wrapping paper and resealing it. I still maintain that those size 12s were wrapped up in a gift in the basement where no intruder (even one who knew the family) would have known they'd be in there. The "partially wrapped" gifts listed in the crime scene evidence were not partially wrapped at all IMHO, but partially UNWRAPPED. Big difference. They were unwrapped specifically to look for those panties. That night.

 

[JMO8778]

PR bought the Bloomies panties (either 1 or 2 sets) during her November shopping trip to NY (where JBR was along) and made a second trip to NY in December where she purchased gifts at FAO Schwartz. It is entirely possible that the size 12s bought for Jenny were included with and wrapped up in a gift from FAO Schwartz. Even if the gift had arrived already wrapped, there is no reason why the panties couldn't have been added later, simply by carefully opening the wrapping paper and resealing it. I still maintain that those size 12s were wrapped up in a gift in the basement where no intruder (even one who knew the family) would have known they'd be in there. The "partially wrapped" gifts listed in the crime scene evidence were not partially wrapped at all IMHO, but partially UNWRAPPED. Big difference. They were unwrapped specifically to look for those panties. That night.

I agree,and IMO,JR knew they were there,and he redressed her.he just wasn't sure which box they were in.that is likely only something Patsy would have known.

 

[UKGuy]

PR bought the Bloomies panties (either 1 or 2 sets) during her November shopping trip to NY (where JBR was along) and made a second trip to NY in December where she purchased gifts at FAO Schwartz. It is entirely possible that the size 12s bought for Jenny were included with and wrapped up in a gift from FAO Schwartz. Even if the gift had arrived already wrapped, there is no reason why the panties couldn't have been added later, simply by carefully opening the wrapping paper and resealing it. I still maintain that those size 12s were wrapped up in a gift in the basement where no intruder (even one who knew the family) would have known they'd be in there. The "partially wrapped" gifts listed in the crime scene evidence were not partially wrapped at all IMHO, but partially UNWRAPPED. Big difference. They were unwrapped specifically to look for those panties. That night.

DeeDee249,
I've never seen it recorded anywhere that Patsy used FAO Schwartz on the November trip, that would make the wrapping of the size-12's in their wrapping paper all the more likely?

Even if the gift had arrived already wrapped, there is no reason why the panties couldn't have been added later, simply by carefully opening the wrapping paper and resealing it.

From your theory this would mean that the partially wrapped gift had been unwrapped twice, would this not be apparent to those itemizing the gifts as partially wrapped?

What we don't know is if Patsy had the size-12's and whatever else was purchased at Bloomingdales mailed out to Boulder? My guess is this is what she did e.g. pay by charge card, special mail delivery then allows Patsy to continue with her introducing JonBenet to the cultural delights of New York?

Patsy's says this about the gifts:

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.

This amnesia is Patsy's standard defense, I just do not believe it, especially when combined with her interview statements regarding the size-12's. Patsy did not know JonBenet had been redressed in the size-12's nor that the remaining pairs were missing from the house!

Now in a sense John's statements from DOI contradict Patsy's:

Also from DOI
Quote:
DOI, page2:
"Patsy and I savored the night before Christmas, helping Santa Claus put everything in place". "We had made several trips to the basement, where Patsy kept the wrapped gifts stashed away".

DOI, page 5:
"Patsy got busy preparing for our early morning departure the next day to Charlevoix, Michigan. She had some last minute gift wrapping to finish for John Andrew, and Melinda, the older children from my first marriage. There were a few things for the Charlevoix neighbor kids as well as a few special gifts for Stewart, Melinda's fiance, who would join us for this first ever family Christmas get together at our summer cottage in Charlevoix.

DOI, page 7:
"I always loved hanging around airports, and Christmas Day was no different. I loaded some of the gifts that were going to Michigan and made sure the plane was ready to go".

So here is John telling us he helped out with the Xmas gift preparations, and that also he and Patsy retrieved wrapped gifts stashed away in the basement, so does Patsy have to open every gift prior to name-tagging them for Xmas-day? How does she know which gifts to fetch, so either the gifts were partially wrapped or name-tagged?

It appears the gifts may have all been partially wrapped, otherwise any tape, ribbon, or string etc would make it apparent that the gifts were indeed partially unwrapped?

Either way I think it is more circumstantial evidence to support the opinion that it was John who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's?


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[UKGuy]

I agree,and IMO,JR knew they were there,and he redressed her.he just wasn't sure which box they were in.that is likely only something Patsy would have known.

JMO8778,
Sure looks that way, now did John relocate those gift-boxes into the wine-cellar, since some think its an unlikely place to store xmas-gifts, although the locking mechanism being at the top of the door was supposed to be a deterrent to Burke and JonBenet?

That is did John redress JonBenet before or after Patsy staged the wine-cellar crime-scene?


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[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Sure looks that way, now did John relocate those gift-boxes into the wine-cellar, since some think its an unlikely place to store xmas-gifts, although the locking mechanism being at the top of the door was supposed to be a deterrent to Burke and JonBenet?

yes,I think he did..and only a man would leave them there! lol.question is..just because he redressed JB,doesn't mean he didn't ask Patsy where they were,or if she had any just like the ones JB was wearing (without asking about sizes).any thoughts on that?

That is did John redress JonBenet before or after Patsy staged the wine-cellar crime-scene?


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good question..what do you think? is there any way to tell?

 

[SleuthyGal]

This whole Size 12 panties thing is so ridiculous. Those panties were too big on JBR by a factor of 2! To pretend that Patsy meant to purchase size 12s for JB to wear is ridiculous....of course she didn't intend for JB to wear the size 12s. That a pair of size 12s ended up on JB throws the hinky meter to the far right. It just does. It is not reasonable to assume that JB wore those size 12s at any other time, nor when she was alive. IMHO of course.

 

[MizzChiff]

When a girl is supposed to wear a size 8, a size 10 is too big until she's about to outgrow the size 8.

Regarding the male DNA on JB undergarments -- any man in his right mind isn't going to help a little girl that isn't his in the bathroom, most will look around dumb-founded looking for a female to help, IMO.

 

[twinkiesmom]

When a girl is supposed to wear a size 8, a size 10 is too big until she's about to outgrow the size 8.

Regarding the male DNA on JB undergarments -- any man in his right mind isn't going to help a little girl that isn't his in the bathroom, most will look around dumb-founded looking for a female to help, IMO.

But these were Ramsey friends, and they did help toilet her...I remember reading this in PMPT, and believing this was a sexually abused child....no normal parent would allow a strange male to change their kid's diaper much less wipe a toddler or preschooler.

JBR was a child with no boundaries, and no one was protecting her innocence.

 

[MizzChiff]

It should be up to parents to teach their child boundaries, but when they don't - other adults do not have to go along. I just wonder how the Ramseys ended up with friends that also didn't have boundaries.
Are your thoughts that she was being abused by someone outside the family? One of these 'helpful' friends?