John Ramsey on Oprah

[SleuthyGal]

I know this is not a popular thing to do, but I look at the issue of abuse almost as if it's a completely separate issue aside from the murder. The abuse may or may not have been connected to JBR's murder; who can say? The autopsy indicates 'chronic' irritation of those cells but from what I can tell the experts don't agree on whether JBR suffered ongoing sexual abuse/molestation or not.

So for me it only serves to muddy the murder investigation waters and doesn't help point to who the murderer is. (yeah, yeah, I know 'unknown DNA was found...')

But as I said the other day, DNA doesn't explain ANY of the other facts that we know are related directly to this crime (RN, fibers, etc, etc.)

So once again I'm back to looking at ONLY the facts that I know for sure are connected to this crime...and those facts happen to point to this being an 'inside' job/murder with the Ramsey's as being responsible for JBR's death and subsequent coverup. IMHO.

 

[twinkiesmom]

It should be up to parents to teach their child boundaries, but when they don't - other adults do not have to go along. I just wonder how the Ramseys ended up with friends that also didn't have boundaries.
Are your thoughts that she was being abused by someone outside the family? One of these 'helpful' friends?

I don't think the friends guilty of anything. The lack of boundaries suggests that PR was an incest victim, and incest does seem to occur generationally. I do not know who the perpetrator(s) were or if they are still living today.

 

[JMO8778]

I know this is not a popular thing to do, but I look at the issue of abuse almost as if it's a completely separate issue aside from the murder. The abuse may or may not have been connected to JBR's murder; who can say? The autopsy indicates 'chronic' irritation of those cells but from what I can tell the experts don't agree on whether JBR suffered ongoing sexual abuse/molestation or not.

So for me it only serves to muddy the murder investigation waters and doesn't help point to who the murderer is. (yeah, yeah, I know 'unknown DNA was found...')

But as I said the other day, DNA doesn't explain ANY of the other facts that we know are related directly to this crime (RN, fibers, etc, etc.)

So once again I'm back to looking at ONLY the facts that I know for sure are connected to this crime...and those facts happen to point to this being an 'inside' job/murder with the Ramsey's as being responsible for JBR's death and subsequent coverup. IMHO.

at the least,I think the incest ties in with the decision not to seek medical help for JB after the head injury occurred.JR said "I regret,I regret.." at the Fernies that night,when he'd been drinking.the only thing that makes sense to me is he regretted his prior conduct with JB.
At the most,it is directly responsible for her death,as Patsy stated "WE didn't mean for this to happen...",that night at the F's as well,when she was highly medicated.

 

[angelwngs]

at the least,I think the incest ties in with the decision not to seek medical help for JB after the head injury occurred.JR said "I regret,I regret.." at the Fernies that night,when he'd been drinking.the only thing that makes sense to me is he regretted his prior conduct with JB.
At the most,it is directly responsible for her death,as Patsy stated "WE didn't mean for this to happen...",that night at the F's as well,when she was highly medicated.

I totally agree. I thought JR said "I'm sorry. I'm sorry" rather than "regret" and was usherer outside immediately by the Father H and Mr F. And I think this is why PR looked though parted fingers as Det French topped the stairs from his trip to the basement. I think the R's expected LE to find JB and were suprised that they didn't and JR had to do it himself. I think that is why there was so little communication and interaction between JR and PR on the morning of the 26th.

Have you ever noticed, people who lie seem to be able to do it much more effectively with other people when they do not have to look into the eyes of someone who knows them well immediately after they've verbalized teir lie? I think this kept them avoiding each other that entire day.

 

[BBB167893]

And man would I LOVE to sit down with Steve Thomas over a beer or 3 and ask him about a thousand questions and then just listen to everything he has to say. I really think he's an unsung hero in this case (if there is one). He kept his focus right where it should have been--on the victim and on what the evidence was. IMHO, of course.

He's only one of several people!

 

[BBB167893]

ITA...I believe they are putting too much emphasis on the DNA which could have come from anywhere, whos to say that the DNA did not come off the longjohns and end up in her undies??? DNA can come from anywhere so that is rediculous that they think it HAS GOT TO BE AN INTRUDER just because *a small amount* of DNA was on here so what! Did LE take all of the DNA at the Whites party??? Did they test who the Longjohns were made by, sold from, people who packaged them? Until all of that is done then TR cannot say that it was 100% the intruders DNA. That is so rediculous its such Beurocratic BS that the Ramseys were not charged its not even funny! Any other parents would have hung in the gallows had this happened.

I can't say I disagree!

Just an off topic question but who of you all out there wish that instead of the 'angry lynch mob protestors' that are in front of the Anthony's house, wish that they were in front of Ramsey's house??? lol

In my weakest moments, maybe. I'm not proud of it.

 

[BBB167893]

It should be up to parents to teach their child boundaries, but when they don't - other adults do not have to go along. I just wonder how the Ramseys ended up with friends that also didn't have boundaries.
Are your thoughts that she was being abused by someone outside the family? One of these 'helpful' friends?

That's what my brother thinks. When this "news" broke, he gloated for a week!

 

[BBB167893]

at the least,I think the incest ties in with the decision not to seek medical help for JB after the head injury occurred.JR said "I regret,I regret.." at the Fernies that night,when he'd been drinking.the only thing that makes sense to me is he regretted his prior conduct with JB.
At the most,it is directly responsible for her death,as Patsy stated "WE didn't mean for this to happen...",that night at the F's as well,when she was highly medicated.

That's how I look at it, as well. For now, anyway.

 

[SleuthyGal]

at the least,I think the incest ties in with the decision not to seek medical help for JB after the head injury occurred.

That head injury, from what I remember reading in the autopsy report, was so substantial that it alone could have been fatal. Their decision not to seek medical attention seems to me to be directly related to the severity of that injury, which I believe was the result of Patsy's sudden rage/explosion at JB. If there was prior incest that may have cemented things in their mind as to why it was important not to seek medical attention, but honestly, I think the cracked skull was likely reason enough...and I believe it was the entire reason for the staging and coverup that occurred afterwards. They didn't want to admit they (or Patsy) had killed their daughter, even accidentally. The rest is all the crap to make it appear as something else. I'm not saying there wasn't incest...I'm just saying that the head injury alone was enough for them to panic and stage. IMHO.

 

[UKGuy]

yes,I think he did..and only a man would leave them there! lol.question is..just because he redressed JB,doesn't mean he didn't ask Patsy where they were,or if she had any just like the ones JB was wearing (without asking about sizes).any thoughts on that?


good question..what do you think? is there any way to tell?

JMO8778,

just because he redressed JB,doesn't mean he didn't ask Patsy where they were,or if she had any just like the ones JB was wearing (without asking about sizes).any thoughts on that?

I'm fairly certain Patsy did not know JonBenet was redressed in those size-12's or that the remainder were missing otherwise she would had a cover story in place. So John could have hardly asked Patsy where he could find a pair of JonBenet's pants, think about it, Patsy states she redressed JonBenet in those longjohns retrieved from her bathroom, so why not fetch a pair of size-6's at the same time?

This one is a puzzle, Patsy says she redressed JonBenet in the longjohns, yet we think it was probably John who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, without Patsy's knowledge.

So one clue must be the missing size-6's, why would Patsy want to remove JonBenet's size-6's only to replace them with size-12's that become urine-stained? See that does not make any sense.

good question..what do you think? is there any way to tell?

It looks like John redressed JonBenet in both the size-12's and longjohns before Patsy enacted the wine-cellar staging, possibly wiping JonBenet down with the size-6's as per Coroner Meyer's comments about mis-matching blood-stains on her size-12's and genitals? Maybe thats why JonBenet was so overdressed e.g. to hide stuff from Patsy, otherwise Patsy would be aware she had been re-dressed in the size-12's? Also if anyone wants to suggest that Patsy wiped Jonbenet down in or outside the wine-cellar then again she would be aware that JonBenet was wearing size-12's?



Either Patsy intended JonBenet to be wearing the Barbie-Gown, or John attempted to add it at a later point in time, or it arrived there accidently, something I find bizarre given a staging is being contrived?

Now on the subject of the flashlight, one Dr John Bond a forensic research scientist at the University of Leicester has discovered a method for lifting fingerprints from metallic surfaces, particularly bullets, after they have been wiped clean, and the more processed food you eat means the more likely you are to leave legible prints. So one wonders if this method could be applied to the flashlight?
Links:
Fingerprint breakthrough hope in US double murder probe
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/uol-fbh082708.php

New Fingerprint Breakthrough by Forensic Scientists
http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-fingerprint-university-metal_131610570.html

.

 

[DeeDee249]

That head injury, from what I remember reading in the autopsy report, was so substantial that it alone could have been fatal. Their decision not to seek medical attention seems to me to be directly related to the severity of that injury, which I believe was the result of Patsy's sudden rage/explosion at JB. If there was prior incest that may have cemented things in their mind as to why it was important not to seek medical attention, but honestly, I think the cracked skull was likely reason enough...and I believe it was the entire reason for the staging and coverup that occurred afterwards. They didn't want to admit they (or Patsy) had killed their daughter, even accidentally. The rest is all the crap to make it appear as something else. I'm not saying there wasn't incest...I'm just saying that the head injury alone was enough for them to panic and stage. IMHO.

Yes, the head injury alone would have killed her. But the vaginal erosion, bruising and other evidence of sexual abuse were there. Someone at some time in the past (not too distant past) was sexually abusing her. If it was a parent, or someone the parents had caught in the act, like a sibling, that is reason enough for 2 things- not calling for medical help while she was still alive, and staging it to look like a stranger/intruder kidnapping, sexual assault/murder. Remember it was the head bash that was NOT apparent. The autopsy alone discovered that. So here they have a dead or dying child that now has to be explained away. How did she die? They can't call for help without providing an explanation of how she got into this condition. With the head bash invisible, a cause of death has to be evident. That's how the garrote came into play. The materials were there- right in PR's paint tote. So a plot was hastily concocted to make this look like a kidnapping gone wrong, really wrong).
I must say the scream gives me a lot to think about. I do believe neighbor Melanie Stanton heard the scream, as she originally said she did. Keep in mind this was December- windows would have been closed. EXCEPT for the broken basement window and the fact that a vent pipe in the basement was found to lead to the alley outside, and LE tested whether a scream in the basement would be heard across the street where Melanie lived, and it could. It could also be heard in the parent's bedroom on the third floor. So we now have either 1. a live JBR who was frightened or injured enough to cause that scream. 2. a horrified PR who saw her daughter and screamed.
That places her in the basement alive, so that does kind of put a damper on the "throwing her into a sink/tub/faucet" idea.
The Rs said that JBR often slept with her window open, so if the scream happened in her bedroom, it would still have to be proved that it could be heard across the street from there, and be proved that there was an open bedroom window in her room. I don't think there was, and I don't think anyone bothered to look. With Arndt giving JR freedom to check the house and not doing do herself, we really don't know. Obviously Officer French missed the open window (as well as the latched wineceller door) on his inspection of the house, so I doubt he'd have checked her room.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think it entirely possible that the FAO Schwartz-wrapped gifts were unwrapped to add the panties, then later unwrapped to fid them to put on JBR. I myself use Scotch Magic Tape (a kind of cellophane tape) to wrap gifts because it can be carefully pulled off to open the paper. It can be done. There would be NO way to tell the difference between partially UN-wrapped gifts and partially wrapped gifts, especially by LE, and from what I can tell, this was a cursory glance around the room. Here is a link showing the corner of a gift wrap from FAO Schwartz in the wineceller. It appears just a short distance from the white blanket. The tape is visible on the blanket. There is NO way that PR (or anyone else) kept gifts, wrapped or not, in that filthy room with mold all over the floor. There were probably several boxes (more than one, anyway) wrapped for Jenny, so more than one box may have had a tag that said "Jenny" and that's why more than one box may have been opened to look for the panties. Even if there were only 1 box that said "Jenny" it still had to be opened to get the size 12 Bloomies out. Just imagine for a moment LE observing that room- seeing a gift-wrapped box that looks like the paper is half on and half off. Not RIPPED off, just opened. So I can see how easy it would be to describe the scene as "some partially wrapped gifts" without looking too closely to see.
Here's the link: http://www.acandyrose.com/149blanket.jpg

 

[UKGuy]

I think it entirely possible that the FAO Schwartz-wrapped gifts were unwrapped to add the panties, then later unwrapped to fid them to put on JBR. I myself use Scotch Magic Tape (a kind of cellophane tape) to wrap gifts because it can be carefully pulled off to open the paper. It can be done. There would be NO way to tell the difference between partially UN-wrapped gifts and partially wrapped gifts, especially by LE, and from what I can tell, this was a cursory glance around the room. Here is a link showing the corner of a gift wrap from FAO Schwartz in the wineceller. It appears just a short distance from the white blanket. The tape is visible on the blanket. There is NO way that PR (or anyone else) kept gifts, wrapped or not, in that filthy room with mold all over the floor. There were probably several boxes (more than one, anyway) wrapped for Jenny, so more than one box may have had a tag that said "Jenny" and that's why more than one box may have been opened to look for the panties. Even if there were only 1 box that said "Jenny" it still had to be opened to get the size 12 Bloomies out. Just imagine for a moment LE observing that room- seeing a gift-wrapped box that looks like the paper is half on and half off. Not RIPPED off, just opened. So I can see how easy it would be to describe the scene as "some partially wrapped gifts" without looking too closely to see.
Here's the link: http://www.acandyrose.com/149blanket.jpg

DeeDee249,
You may be correct, but on the balance of probability I reckon not. We have been told nothing about any gifts for Jenny being stored in the wine-cellar. This possibility is central to Patsy's version of events yet she tells us nothing about storing the size-12's in the basement, the investigators make no mention of potential gifts for Jenny, which could be confused as being for JonBenet. John himself tells us that the gifts left in the wine-cellar were Burke's birthday gifts, and this tallies with xmas-day having been and gone, including John's account that he loaded some xmas-gifts onto his plane for the vacation flight.

So in the absence of hard facts anything can be construed but if Patsy , John or the investigators have not mentioned any Jenny gifts e.g. their locations, then making the size-12's materialize in the wine-cellar seems to go beyond the known facts?

Partially wrapped is ambiguous, since the gifts may simply have the paper folded around them with no tape, string or ribbon applied. Then again it may mean precisely what you suggest Partially Unwrapped similar to the glass half full analogy. Which I tend to agree with since why should FAO Schwartz mail out partially-wrapped gifts, particularly with no product tags?

So although it appears that the gifts have been opened it does not folllow they must have been opened to retrieve the size-12's, however neat that notion seems to fit?

 

[SleuthyGal]

See I think it's so easy to get mired down in the possibilities of this case that the challenge here is sticking only to the salient facts and questions.

- Would a kidnapper simply fail to kidnap and instead hang out, write a looooong 3 page note in the manner/style of a 40+ yr old southern woman in a writing style that included Patsy Ramsey? Really? What are the odds?

- Would a small foreign faction actually refer to themselves as a 'small foreign faction?' Hee. That one just gets me. C'mon!

- Would an intruder know about size 12 panties tucked away either in a drawer or stashed in the basement?

- Why would an intruder/failed kidnapper put size 12 day-of-the-week panties on JBR? Let's get real here!

- Would an intruder just happen to wear clothing that just happened to match the red sweater of Patsy Ramsey when said intruder/member of small foreign faction placed tape across JBR's mouth, put the garrote on JBR's neck? How would said intruder know about this paintbrush in Patsy Ramsey's paintbox? Those red sweater fibers were found in there too.

The old saying, "When you hear hoof beats think horses and not zebras comes to mind." As well as "Occam's razor." What is the most simple path to the answer without adding in unnecessary flotsam?

This was an 'inside' job. There was no kidnapper looking for a ransom of $118,000 (please.). BTW, said kidnapper never called. There was no 'small foreign faction' (unless you count the Ramsey family).

There was no kidnapping or kidnapping attempt in the Ramsey house on Xmas night, 1996.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

I'm fairly certain Patsy did not know JonBenet was redressed in those size-12's or that the remainder were missing otherwise she would had a cover story in place. So John could have hardly asked Patsy where he could find a pair of JonBenet's pants, think about it, Patsy states she redressed JonBenet in those longjohns retrieved from her bathroom, so why not fetch a pair of size-6's at the same time?

This one is a puzzle, Patsy says she redressed JonBenet in the longjohns, yet we think it was probably John who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, without Patsy's knowledge.

So one clue must be the missing size-6's, why would Patsy want to remove JonBenet's size-6's only to replace them with size-12's that become urine-stained? See that does not make any sense.


It looks like John redressed JonBenet in both the size-12's and longjohns before Patsy enacted the wine-cellar staging, possibly wiping JonBenet down with the size-6's as per Coroner Meyer's comments about mis-matching blood-stains on her size-12's and genitals? Maybe thats why JonBenet was so overdressed e.g. to hide stuff from Patsy, otherwise Patsy would be aware she had been re-dressed in the size-12's? Also if anyone wants to suggest that Patsy wiped Jonbenet down in or outside the wine-cellar then again she would be aware that JonBenet was wearing size-12's?

yes,thanks,that absolutely fits it all together.

Either Patsy intended JonBenet to be wearing the Barbie-Gown, or John attempted to add it at a later point in time, or it arrived there accidently, something I find bizarre given a staging is being contrived?

indeed it is odd,what do you make of it? only thing that comes to mind is JR saying 'that shouldn't be there',and so it seems it stuck to the blanket by accident,with neither aware of it(?) My guess is they were using the night vision goggles q'd about in the interviews,and so visibility was reduced to the point that neither noticed it.

Now on the subject of the flashlight, one Dr John Bond a forensic research scientist at the University of Leicester has discovered a method for lifting fingerprints from metallic surfaces, particularly bullets, after they have been wiped clean, and the more processed food you eat means the more likely you are to leave legible prints. So one wonders if this method could be applied to the flashlight?
Links:
Fingerprint breakthrough hope in US double murder probe
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/uol-fbh082708.php

New Fingerprint Breakthrough by Forensic Scientists
http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-fingerprint-university-metal_131610570.html

.

..possible,but it would be a miracle to get Spacey Lacy to agree to it! IMO things like this..improvements in technology...are one reason Lacy helped tie her successors hands up before he/she even takes office..I imagine John was worried about that as well.

 

[angelwngs]

See I think it's so easy to get mired down in the possibilities of this case that the challenge here is sticking only to the salient facts and questions.

- Would a kidnapper simply fail to kidnap and instead hang out, write a looooong 3 page note in the manner/style of a 40+ yr old southern woman in a writing style that included Patsy Ramsey? Really? What are the odds?

- Would a small foreign faction actually refer to themselves as a 'small foreign faction?' Hee. That one just gets me. C'mon!

- Would an intruder know about size 12 panties tucked away either in a drawer or stashed in the basement?

- Why would an intruder/failed kidnapper put size 12 day-of-the-week panties on JBR? Let's get real here!

- Would an intruder just happen to wear clothing that just happened to match the red sweater of Patsy Ramsey when said intruder/member of small foreign faction placed tape across JBR's mouth, put the garrote on JBR's neck? How would said intruder know about this paintbrush in Patsy Ramsey's paintbox? Those red sweater fibers were found in there too.

The old saying, "When you hear hoof beats think horses and not zebras comes to mind." As well as "Occam's razor." What is the most simple path to the answer without adding in unnecessary flotsam?

This was an 'inside' job. There was no kidnapper looking for a ransom of $118,000 (please.). BTW, said kidnapper never called. There was no 'small foreign faction' (unless you count the Ramsey family).

There was no kidnapping or kidnapping attempt in the Ramsey house on Xmas night, 1996.

Logic. Oh, how I do LOVE logic! :clap:

 

[JMO8778]

This one is a puzzle, Patsy says she redressed JonBenet in the longjohns, yet we think it was probably John who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, without Patsy's knowledge.

I agree,I'm just wondering,how do you think he knew where to find the size 12's,or that they were there,ie-that Patsy had bought them?

So one clue must be the missing size-6's, why would Patsy want to remove JonBenet's size-6's only to replace them with size-12's that become urine-stained? See that does not make any sense.

as well as it doesn't make any sense for it to be a soiling rage incident!

It looks like John redressed JonBenet in both the size-12's and longjohns before Patsy enacted the wine-cellar staging, possibly wiping JonBenet down with the size-6's as per Coroner Meyer's comments about mis-matching blood-stains on her size-12's and genitals? Maybe thats why JonBenet was so overdressed e.g. to hide stuff from Patsy, otherwise Patsy would be aware she had been re-dressed in the size-12's? Also if anyone wants to suggest that Patsy wiped Jonbenet down in or outside the wine-cellar then again she would be aware that JonBenet was wearing size-12's?

..so it goes to follow,that whatever happened to JB..ie-the head injury..happened before Patsy came along and did her part of the staging,that would be the most logical assumption,correct?
but then that begs the question,why would Patsy help JR cover up this crime? if so then perhaps more than one reason came into play?

 

[JMO8778]

Yes, the head injury alone would have killed her. But the vaginal erosion, bruising and other evidence of sexual abuse were there. Someone at some time in the past (not too distant past) was sexually abusing her. If it was a parent, or someone the parents had caught in the act, like a sibling, that is reason enough for 2 things- not calling for medical help while she was still alive, and staging it to look like a stranger/intruder kidnapping, sexual assault/murder. Remember it was the head bash that was NOT apparent. The autopsy alone discovered that. So here they have a dead or dying child that now has to be explained away. How did she die? They can't call for help without providing an explanation of how she got into this condition. With the head bash invisible, a cause of death has to be evident. That's how the garrote came into play. The materials were there- right in PR's paint tote. So a plot was hastily concocted to make this look like a kidnapping gone wrong, really wrong).
I must say the scream gives me a lot to think about. I do believe neighbor Melanie Stanton heard the scream, as she originally said she did. Keep in mind this was December- windows would have been closed. EXCEPT for the broken basement window and the fact that a vent pipe in the basement was found to lead to the alley outside, and LE tested whether a scream in the basement would be heard across the street where Melanie lived, and it could. It could also be heard in the parent's bedroom on the third floor. So we now have either 1. a live JBR who was frightened or injured enough to cause that scream. 2. a horrified PR who saw her daughter and screamed.
That places her in the basement alive, so that does kind of put a damper on the "throwing her into a sink/tub/faucet" idea.
The Rs said that JBR often slept with her window open, so if the scream happened in her bedroom, it would still have to be proved that it could be heard across the street from there, and be proved that there was an open bedroom window in her room. I don't think there was, and I don't think anyone bothered to look. With Arndt giving JR freedom to check the house and not doing do herself, we really don't know. Obviously Officer French missed the open window (as well as the latched wineceller door) on his inspection of the house, so I doubt he'd have checked her room.

yes,I've always suspected there was more to it re: not getting medical help for JB after the head injury.they could have said it was an accident,she fell down the stairs or something.any panicked parent who truly wanted their daughter to LIVE would stick like glue to the notion they could lie and get away with it,better yet,worry about that LATER,just get her some help right now! but they didn't....
..as far as thinking she was dead..I can't picture any parent who wants their child to live,just saying, 'oops,that's it.she hit her head and she's dead..it might as well look like an intruder did it...'.that doesn't make any sense.*denial would come into play,if they'd wanted her to live.there were reasons..HARD reasons...medical help was denied to JB,IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes, the head injury alone would have killed her. But the vaginal erosion, bruising and other evidence of sexual abuse were there. Someone at some time in the past (not too distant past) was sexually abusing her. If it was a parent, or someone the parents had caught in the act, like a sibling, that is reason enough for 2 things- not calling for medical help while she was still alive, and staging it to look like a stranger/intruder kidnapping, sexual assault/murder. Remember it was the head bash that was NOT apparent. The autopsy alone discovered that. So here they have a dead or dying child that now has to be explained away. How did she die? They can't call for help without providing an explanation of how she got into this condition. With the head bash invisible, a cause of death has to be evident. That's how the garrote came into play. The materials were there- right in PR's paint tote. So a plot was hastily concocted to make this look like a kidnapping gone wrong, really wrong).
I must say the scream gives me a lot to think about. I do believe neighbor Melanie Stanton heard the scream, as she originally said she did. Keep in mind this was December- windows would have been closed. EXCEPT for the broken basement window and the fact that a vent pipe in the basement was found to lead to the alley outside, and LE tested whether a scream in the basement would be heard across the street where Melanie lived, and it could. It could also be heard in the parent's bedroom on the third floor. So we now have either 1. a live JBR who was frightened or injured enough to cause that scream. 2. a horrified PR who saw her daughter and screamed.
That places her in the basement alive, so that does kind of put a damper on the "throwing her into a sink/tub/faucet" idea.
The Rs said that JBR often slept with her window open, so if the scream happened in her bedroom, it would still have to be proved that it could be heard across the street from there, and be proved that there was an open bedroom window in her room. I don't think there was, and I don't think anyone bothered to look. With Arndt giving JR freedom to check the house and not doing do herself, we really don't know. Obviously Officer French missed the open window (as well as the latched wineceller door) on his inspection of the house, so I doubt he'd have checked her room.

on that note,I have to wonder if Smit placed the scream in the basement,bc it really DID happen there?!!

 

[angelwngs]

I don't think the scream ever happened. That revelation that it was possibly JB's 'negative energy' rather than an actual scream that the witness said in recounting the event through all credibility of 'the scream' actually happening out the window.