John Ramsey's Discover of JBR's Body

[Pollice_Verso]

A common claim among the "Ramsey's Did It" theorists is that John Ramsey knew JBR's body was in the basement wine cellar room all along and then "discovered" the body himself to contaminate the crime scene and appear like a shocked and distraught father seeing his daughter dead for the first time as part of an elaborate cover-up and staging strategy.

But there's a fatal flaw in this theory: Once the 911 call was placed, surely the Ramsey's would have known that that the police would search the house themselves and probably discover the body.

As we know, unfortunately they didn't but they came close. Officer Rick French was the first to arrive and did an apparently cursory search of the house, including the basement but did not open the wine cellar room door (he claims he pushed on it but it wouldn't open and he didn't try further).

This picture was taken in the "kidnapping phase" (i.e. when police still believed they were dealing with a kidnapping) by a crime scene technician on the morning of the 26th before the discovery of JBR's body:

It shows the boiler room and the wine cellar room door, behind which is JBR's body.

The point is it would be inconceivable for the Ramsey's to believe that the police would not search the house for JBR with a significant risk that they would find the body and there were "close calls" where police could have found JBR's body before John did.

Also, if John Ramsey knew his daughter was dead in the wine cellar all along, why wait so long to find her? The 911 call was placed at 5.52 am and the body was not found until 1.05 pm - that's just over 7 hours. The longer her body is there, the more likely it becomes that it would be found by police.

In summary, assertions that John Ramsey staged the discovery of his daughter's body don't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[UKGuy]

Police_verso,

But there's a fatal flaw in this theory: Once the 911 call was placed, surely the Ramsey's would have known that that the police would search the house themselves and probably discover the body.

Hey, that's not a flaw its a feature.

Of course they thought BPD would search and find JonBenet. When that never happened John realized he would have to find JonBenet.

The case is 100% RDI, with zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside the house.

Then of course there is Finders statistic over 90% of people who discover the body are the killer!

FBI knew right away the case was RDI !

.

 

[Pollice_Verso]

You seem to be trying to have it both ways - you say the Ramsey's wanted the police to find JBR dead in the wine cellar room while citing a statistic that "over 90% of people who discover the body are the killer", where surely the intention of this "90%" would be that they "discover" the body, not the police.

Zero forensic evidence? We have a dead girl who was also sexually assaulted and unknown male DNA found on her underwear and Long Johns is just discarded as irrelevant?

 

[UKGuy]

You seem to be trying to have it both ways - you say the Ramsey's wanted the police to find JBR dead in the wine cellar room while citing a statistic that "over 90% of people who discover the body are the killer", where surely the intention of this "90%" would be that they "discover" the body, not the police.

Zero forensic evidence? We have a dead girl who was also sexually assaulted and unknown male DNA found on her underwear and Long Johns is just discarded as irrelevant?

Pollice_Verso,
The DNA has been analysed as a mix of various stranger touch-dna, which could have originated from anywhere, e.g. her own toilet , the White's toilet, the DNA represents random environmental debri, its noise, pop an crackle for your intellect.

Nope, why the 90% decide to find the body has not been stated, just that they did. Mostly they are playing the Good Guy script not realizing the FBI and local LEA are wise to people staging crime-scenes then saying hey I just found the body ...

Like I say, its one of my favorite sentences: There is Zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside of the Ramsey household.

.

 

[NanaNZA]

Pollice_Verso,
When the 911 call was placed, this was, by all appearances, a “kidnapping” as reported by PR.

The room where JBR was hidden was latched from the exterior of the room, so BPD officer(s) decided that that room was not a viable entry point into the house. I think this is logical. They had no reason to be looking for a “body.”

Yes, there were some close calls, but nobody opened that door. It doesn’t matter if it was risky or not. Someone in this family had killed a little girl, for heaven’s sake!! I think it’s safe to say that there would be risk with each decision that they made from there on out.

10:00 came and went without a ransom call, JR had been growing more and more anxious; BPD were starting to leave, but Det. Arndt was staying put and it didn’t look like she was going anywhere anytime soon. Then out of the blue, she asked him to search the house. In that moment, he must have decided to use this opportunity to “discover” JBR and risk the consequences.

It is entirely conceivable that the Ramey’s believed that the police would not search the house (for a body). Why would a kidnapping victim be in the house? As stated above, BPD only looked for points of entry. Maybe JR didn’t consider that they may search the basement for a point of entry, but when they did, all he could do was wait and watch.

You asked why he waited so long to find her. Well, maybe his original plan was to not find her at all, but wait until everyone had left for an opportunity to remove her body from the house?

 

[FY1234]

They may have expected the police to find the body and when that didn't happen John took it upon himself to "find" JBR.

Also Patsy was watching Officer French through splayed fingers when he came up from the basement that morning. She wanted to see if he found anything because she knew JBR was hidden in the basement.

 

[Cottonstar]

Surely you cannot blame the police for not finding JonBenét’s body in the cellar when John and Patsy both didn’t find their daughter or even look for her inside the house. According to their own statements, John and Patsy do not step a foot inside her room after they “find” the note. They don’t call out her name, they don’t rise their son and ask him questions. In any innocent scenario, if you “found” your daughter missing, you would tear up your house looking for her, with or without the note. The fact that they didn’t is damning behavioral evidence against both parents.

 

[andreww]

I look at it this way, Fleet White looked in that room and saw nothing, so was the body always there? Could the plan have been to conceal the body until police left, then dump it somewhere? Could the plan have been to simply let the police find it? Perhaps John was hoping Officer French would look in there. Perhaps FW just missed seeing her. Perhaps John had just had all the waiting around he could stand and just took matters in to his own hands. We'll probably never know for sure.

 

[andreww]

Kinda was recently reminded of this during the Dellen Millard trial for the murder of his father Wayne. Dellen, after killing dear old dad, was staying at a friends house waiting for the housekeeper to find the body. Apparently she wasn't as thorough as he planned, because she didn't find him. He then called another pal, asking him to go check on dear old dad. He couldn't do it. So he had to do it out of necessity. I think Millard, and John for that matter, were simply nervous that they were simply not good enough actors to pull off the discovery, simple as that.

 

[UKGuy]

I look at it this way, Fleet White looked in that room and saw nothing, so was the body always there? Could the plan have been to conceal the body until police left, then dump it somewhere? Could the plan have been to simply let the police find it? Perhaps John was hoping Officer French would look in there. Perhaps FW just missed seeing her. Perhaps John had just had all the waiting around he could stand and just took matters in to his own hands. We'll probably never know for sure.

andreww,
I'm more optimistic I reckon once JR leaves us the sleuce gates will open and Just Remembered memories will come flooding forth, particularly that of Fleet White, he will have deposited an account in some vault for posterity.

The plan was simple: to stage a fake crime-scene, that's it, no more, no less.

Just like the US Government in 2008 when they allowed Lehman Brothers to file for bankruptcy, what happened next was in the lap of the gods.

The Ramsey's never had a clue what was going to transpire, but they did leave clues as to their inclination.

John and Patsy were prepared to flee by private aircraft interstate, definitely leaving JonBenet behind, and quite likely Burke as he was at Fleet White's house.

For John to decide to find JonBenet must mean he was confident nobody knew where she was?

IMO John tweaked the basement crime-scene later that morning possibly moving JonBenet to the wine-cellar.

This would explain why Fleet White never saw JonBenet on his first visit, and of course John was ignorant about Fleet's visit!

Summarising: John and Patsy staged an Intruder crime-scene assuming JonBenet would be discovered early that morning, then they would both flee Colorado as soon as possible.

.

 

[andreww]

andreww,
I'm more optimistic I reckon once JR leaves us the sleuce gates will open and Just Remembered memories will come flooding forth, particularly that of Fleet White, he will have deposited an account in some vault for posterity.

The plan was simple: to stage a fake crime-scene, that's it, no more, no less.

Just like the US Government in 2008 when they allowed Lehman Brothers to file for bankruptcy, what happened next was in the lap of the gods.

The Ramsey's never had a clue what was going to transpire, but they did leave clues as to their inclination.

John and Patsy were prepared to flee by private aircraft interstate, definitely leaving JonBenet behind, and quite likely Burke as he was at Fleet White's house.

For John to decide to find JonBenet must mean he was confident nobody knew where she was?

IMO John tweaked the basement crime-scene later that morning possibly moving JonBenet to the wine-cellar.

This would explain why Fleet White never saw JonBenet on his first visit, and of course John was ignorant about Fleet's visit!

Summarising: John and Patsy staged an Intruder crime-scene assuming JonBenet would be discovered early that morning, then they would both flee Colorado as soon as possible.

.

Certainly a possibility. I'm just not sure where else she would have been hidden that the cops did not check? We know fo sure the only person that looked in there was Fleet, and the lights were off. Could she have been somewhere else in the WC? Possibly. Outside of the WC? I don't think john would risk the move as Fleet was down there with him, although on his hands and knees in the train room.

 

[andreww]

What is interesting is that when Fleet joins John in the WC, he is struggling to free her wrists. I mean, she's unconscious, would the wrists be a concern? Possibly spreading is DNA over as much of her as he could?

 

[NanaNZA]

Certainly a possibility. I'm just not sure where else she would have been hidden that the cops did not check? We know fo sure the only person that looked in there was Fleet, and the lights were off. Could she have been somewhere else in the WC? Possibly. Outside of the WC? I don't think john would risk the move as Fleet was down there with him, although on his hands and knees in the train room.

I have the same question, andreww. I don't see why John would put her in one location just to move her again. Fleet didn't see her, but John did because he knew she was there.
What strikes me as odd is that BPD are looking for a point of forced entry; Fleet comes in and searches the filthy, dark cluttered basement calling out for a little girl possibly hiding. Had he not heard about the ransom note? I know Fleet wasn't involved, but thinking she would hide down there on the day after Christmas? Whatever for?

 

[Cottonstar]

I have the same question, andreww. I don't see why John would put her in one location just to move her again. Fleet didn't see her, but John did because he knew she was there.
What strikes me as odd is that BPD are looking for a point of forced entry; Fleet comes in and searches the filthy, dark cluttered basement calling out for a little girl possibly hiding. Had he not heard about the ransom note? I know Fleet wasn't involved, but thinking she would hide down there on the day after Christmas? Whatever for?

John Ramsey never told Fleet White there was a ransom note. So, when Fleet first searched the basement he was unaware of the ransom note.

 

[Cottonstar]

Certainly a possibility. I'm just not sure where else she would have been hidden that the cops did not check? We know fo sure the only person that looked in there was Fleet, and the lights were off. Could she have been somewhere else in the WC? Possibly. Outside of the WC? I don't think john would risk the move as Fleet was down there with him, although on his hands and knees in the train room.

John made at least two solo trips down to the basement before he went down with Fleet at 1:01pm.

 

[David Rogers]

Certainly a possibility. I'm just not sure where else she would have been hidden that the cops did not check? We know fo sure the only person that looked in there was Fleet, and the lights were off. Could she have been somewhere else in the WC? Possibly. Outside of the WC? I don't think john would risk the move as Fleet was down there with him, although on his hands and knees in the train room.

Interesting you bring up the lights. There was another thread that said you had to throw two switches to turn on the lights. Both switches off and body in corner would make it hard to see.

 

[NanaNZA]

John Ramsey never told Fleet White there was a ransom note. So, when Fleet first searched the basement he was unaware of the ransom note.

Thank you for this, Cottonstar. So Fleet was searching under assumption that she was just missing, not a kidnapping. Seems odd that this crucial information was not related to him by someone immediately.

 

[andreww]

Thank you for this, Cottonstar. So Fleet was searching under assumption that she was just missing, not a kidnapping. Seems odd that this crucial information was not related to him by someone immediately.

I kind of doubt that Fleet was unaware of the note. John may not have told him but the Fernies could possibly have brought him up to speed.

 

[andreww]

I have the same question, andreww. I don't see why John would put her in one location just to move her again. Fleet didn't see her, but John did because he knew she was there.
What strikes me as odd is that BPD are looking for a point of forced entry; Fleet comes in and searches the filthy, dark cluttered basement calling out for a little girl possibly hiding. Had he not heard about the ransom note? I know Fleet wasn't involved, but thinking she would hide down there on the day after Christmas? Whatever for?

Fleet was thinking about an incident with his own daughter who had seemed to had gone missing. He eventually found her hiding somewhere. I guess that its possible that all John told Fleet was that JBR was gone, and he began searching?

 

[Cottonstar]

Fleet searched the basement without knowledge of the note. It’s a glaring behavioral clue. You can see why JR didn’t want to bring light to the note. It’s also another clue to JR’s early involvement.