JonBenet Ramson letter - written before or after + linguistics

[DeeDee249]

RDI's what say you?

Nada. Holdon's posts make my eyes bleed.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If PR did hand write it, I'm surprised she could get away with an attempt to match the RN handwriting to her own, as opposed to having it printed out.

From this IDI, its probably the single biggest blunder of the investigation.

In reality, there's only so many choices for why anyone would leave 1500+ characters of personal handwriting, at a capital crime scene.

1. They decided that the risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not unacceptable because they had adequately disguised it.
2. They decided that the risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not unacceptable because they believed their handwriting was not likely to be subject to comparison.
3. There was no decision. The risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not understood or recognized.
4. They decided that the risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not unacceptable because they wanted to be caught, but not outright.

 

[Tadpole12]

Elaborating, then PR impersonated a housekeeper impersonating three individuals representing a SFF. Is that right?

a desperate housewife impersonating a housekeeper: thematic reference a L&L thrill style inside job, said housekeeper or associates characters adopting the guise of a psychopathic movie quoting serial killer .... with a flare for mid nite childrens hairdos and .... who also appreciates the cinematic classic 'The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie' ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prime_of_Miss_Jean_Brodie

IMO Prime of MJB, kinda .... well even though it's a classic, and even though I'm in the same age range as the Ramseys, that movie had zero relevance or refelection to/of my life ... luckily born in a time when that era of female subdugation or repression no longer existed.

Boy, you guys can quote the Star Trek, eh?

 

[Tadpole12]

From this IDI, its probably the single biggest blunder of the investigation.

In reality, there's only so many choices for why anyone would leave 1500+ characters of personal handwriting, at a capital crime scene.

1. They decided that the risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not unacceptable because they had adequately disguised it.
2. They decided that the risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not unacceptable because they knew their handwriting was not likely to be subject to comparison.
3. There was no decision. The risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not understood or recognized.
4. They decided that the risk of leaving personal handwriting in this quantity was not unacceptable because they wanted to be caught, but not outright.

Hi Hotyh.

#4 ...As in, either route, the RDI or IDI? intruder wanted to be caught?
Is that what you're suggesting?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hi Hotyh.

#4 ...As in, either route, the RDI or IDI? intruder wanted to be caught?
Is that what you're suggesting?

Not really.

RDI believes that PR decided the risk of leaving her own personal handwriting in that quantity was not unacceptable because she believed she had adequately disguised it. RDI says PR believed she was backed into a corner, had to write a long RN, and disguised it as best she could.

What I'm suggesting is that this idea is too remote. You'd be waiting an eternity for somebody who wished not to be caught, to write 2 1/2 pages in disguised handwriting, and leave it next to a capital crime. And it would still never happen.

RDI believes that PR was aware of the risk and disguised her handwriting. This imples that PR didn't want to be caught. Most criminals who are aware of the risk and don't want to be caught wind up typing the letter or cut and pasting the letter. Good luck finding a precedent where a disguised handwritten note was written by someone closely associated with the victim.

This also grants RDI the idea that PR would've needed a long disguised handwritten note to stage a sexual assault on her daughter in the first place!

 

[Tadpole12]

This also grants RDI the idea that PR would've needed a long disguised handwritten note to stage a sexual assault on her daughter in the first place! - Hotyh.

Hi Hotyh.

Okay. I wondered .... because the same 'linguistic artifacts'/patterns and evidence of handwiting patterns which comprise the rn, are the product of the IDI intruder .... even though the note has a 'nonsensical' interpretation in the PDI scenario ....
a literal in the SFF scenario ....
nonsensical in the nondescript Intruder scenario. as it's purpose would be to distract,....
the writer draws upon their cultural experience, in this case, with the 'foreigners', a unique cultural experience?

 

[KoldKase]

Patsy wrote the note in her own hand because she had no choice. How hard is it to write, cut, and paste a long ransom note, and how long would THAT take? Then to get rid of magazines, newspapers, glue, etc., when you know LE is going to be all over your house in a short time? She already had to get rid of the duct tape and cord roll, not to mention the panties JonBenet had been wearing which have never been found because LE didn't notice for a long time that those found on JB were too large for her to have actually worn as a living, breathing child. (See my avatar and link at the bottom of my post, if you want to actually explore the TRUTH of that ridiculous claim by Patsy that JonBenet put those on herself.)

What was Patsy going to do? Pack a suitcase and sneak it out?

Conversely, why would an intruder or GROUP of intruders wait until they got to the Ramsey home to write the ransom note? Then carry Patsy's pad around while hiding as the Ramseys went about their home preparing for bed and a trip the next day? That's absurd to even imagine.

Nobody "destroyed" the Ramseys BUT THE KILLER. Why the Ramseys and their supporters never GET that, I don't understand. Blame EVERYONE ELSE but the killer. What innocent parents of a murdered child do that? NONE that I've seen.

If it's ridiculous to imagine Patsy writing her long, faux ransom note, how ridiculous is it that an intruder would do so, in the home?

Patsy's HISTORY was that she was good enough at acting to win several state and national CHAMPIONSHIPS for oral interpretation while still in high school. She also won a scholarship in THE MISS AMERICA PAGEANT for talent with a short monologue SHE WROTE UNDER TIME PRESSURE when her usual one, from The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, couldn't be used in a broadcast for copyright reasons. Patsy's degree and work history was in ADVERTISING, using her writing skills.

If people refuse to see that Patsy was not only CAPABLE of writing that ransom note, but is clearly and irrefutably the only person who has ever been linked to actually writing it through her handwriting, language, pad, pen, AND OPPORTUNITY, then it's a waste of time discussing this because you don't want to see the truth: Patsy wrote the note.

She wrote it to cover up that someone in that house that night had killed JonBenet, to get them out of the house and AWAY FROM LE, to their lawyers, as quickly as possible while LE looked for A KIDNAPPER and INTRUDER.

It worked! Patsy was no dummy, and she had a long history of being successful under pressure. Patsy was no tender Southern Belle by any means. She was a take charge kind of person, as many who dealt with her have described many times, including her own friends and family.

John was no wimp, either. He didn't take his company from a basement start-up to being a CEO for Lockheed Martin by folding up when push comes to shove.

Whatever happened in that house that night, there is plenty of evidence that JonBenet was in trouble before Dec. 25th. The autopsy proves it. Numerous friends of the Ramseys have said so as well, many times, in many contexts, even people who defend the Ramseys to this day.

I can't and won't close my eyes to the truth because JonBenet was a child who was abandoned by her family as soon as they could run from the home and never look back. NO ONE IN THAT FAMILY FOUGHT FOR JONBENET WHEN SHE WAS LYING DEAD IN HER GRAVE. NO ONE.

All the Ramsey have done is obstruct the investigation from DAY ONE and RUN RUN RUN, to protect themselves from...THE TRUTH, IMO.

 

[voynich]

I am curious as to which historical exemplars Gerald R. McMenamin, Dongdoo Choi used for their analysis, and whether using other exemplars would change their conclusion.

Even if PR wanted to write a RN in her own handwriting, it's hard to see that this would be something JR would agree with, since if he has the foresight to stage the crime scene with garrote and other sexual devices, in anticipation of an autopsy which might reveal a past history of sexual abuse, and his foresight of his need for lawyers, he would allow the PR note to stand as evidence since he could foresee attempts on the part of LE to link the handwriting and language to them. He could have snatched that RN out of PR's hand, yell at her saying don't you know how self-incriminating this is to us? and destroyed it along with other unidentified and missing evidence.

I don't see PR had "no choice" about writing a RN, and certainly not a LONG one...and even if she wanted to write one, why she didn't have it printed out, or why JR would allow it. Why she called 911 when she did, rather than delaying for more coverup preparation. The R's had a lot of choices after they killed JB, whenever that happened and why.

While I don't want to get into sexual abuse and post-crime conduct, I do like to point out that Charles Lindbergh's conduct after the kidnapping of his baby was *extremely* suspicious.

I do think there should be a manual or online guidance on how [geniunely innocent] parents *should* behave after a kidnapping of their child and when they become the prime suspects. For all we know, their lawyers gave them the advice to follow.

One RDI theory that makes sense to me is Burke did it, and the R's are covering up.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, he could have- but he didn't. And PR did provide the exemplars, though I don't know if she copied the entire note. I have seen them online, as have many people here. I wasn't there when they were written, nor was (probably) anyone here. But from what have seen, they look like a perfect match to me.
As far as guidance from their lawyers- you can bet the rent on it! Starting from right after JBR's death. That's why those phone records disappeared.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't think JR thought they would get away with it at first.So the evidence might as well point to Patsy.The court would likely have mercy on her...she'd survived stage 4 cancer.
JR even handed LE her notepad..the one used to write the RN on.And HE took a shower that morning..Patsy did not.HE changed clothes,while still allowing Patsy and JB to wear clothes from the previous night at the White's...even though they called the White's over!! Patsy was clearly not thinking..JR was!! I believe he guided and took control that morning.
Plus,look at the RN...Patsy clearly had something on him,which I believe was the chronic sexual abuse found upon autopsy..'don't try to grow a brain,John,you are not the only fat cat..'. ..what else was he GOING to do??? she was making threats to tell on him!! the most he could do was guide evidence in her direction,yet not directly tell on her.

 

[voynich]

I'm not entirely convinced JB was a victim of chronic sexual abuse, certainly their pediatrician never mentions it or suspected it, and there are other possible alternative explanations, such as irritation due to bedwetting/soiling.

Even if she were, we cannot say who, could be anybody.

Going back to the RN, is there a reason for PR to write in the RN (if she already had him cooperating and told him orally) to include "fat cats" "don't underestimate us, use that good sense of yours" etc when she already had his cooperation? They already were together staging the crime scene and getting their story straight on what to tell the LE

 

[voynich]

Yes, he could have- but he didn't. And PR did provide the exemplars, though I don't know if she copied the entire note. I have seen them online, as have many people here. I wasn't there when they were written, nor was (probably) anyone here. But from what have seen, they look like a perfect match to me.
As far as guidance from their lawyers- you can bet the rent on it! Starting from right after JBR's death. That's why those phone records disappeared.

Hey I wonder if you're from outside the US, since the phrase is usually "you can be the FARM on it" as I hear it.

I do think the handwriting is suspiciously similar. I do wonder why many credible handwriting experts have ruled out PR.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm not entirely convinced JB was a victim of chronic sexual abuse, certainly their pediatrician never mentions it or suspected it, and there are other possible alternative explanations, such as irritation due to bedwetting/soiling.

Even if she were, we cannot say who, could be anybody.

Going back to the RN, is there a reason for PR to write in the RN (if she already had him cooperating and told him orally) to include "fat cats" "don't underestimate us, use that good sense of yours" etc when she already had his cooperation? They already were together staging the crime scene and getting their story straight on what to tell the LE

As far as the vaginal issues - NO bedwetting or irritation, tight clothes, etc. can cause EROSION (wearing away) the hymen. That is the result of something pressing or rubbing the hymen which is inside the vagina. Bubble baths can cause irritation , as is well known by all mothers of little girls. But bubble baths do not erode the hymen.
As for the pediatrician= well- he was one of the "fans" of the Rs- dazzled by their wealth and prominence. He was a personal friend as well- a golf buddy of JR. He may have been unwilling to speak up for various reasons. We're all world- weary today. We've seen these types of "look the other way" cover-ups before, and sadly, we will again. It is not unheard of.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hey I wonder if you're from outside the US, since the phrase is usually "you can be the FARM on it" as I hear it.

I do think the handwriting is suspiciously similar. I do wonder why many credible handwriting experts have ruled out PR.

I am from New Jersey. Currently my location is as listed in my posts. Check it out.

 

[voynich]

I am from New Jersey. Currently my location is as listed in my posts. Check it out.

Outside the Midwest then I'll bet the RENT on that

 

[voynich]

As far as the vaginal issues - NO bedwetting or irritation, tight clothes, etc. can cause EROSION (wearing away) the hymen. That is the result of something pressing or rubbing the hymen which is inside the vagina. Bubble baths can cause irritation , as is well known by all mothers of little girls. But bubble baths do not erode the hymen. .

Err...thanks. Okay. I did not know this. I don't have any more questions about this.


I guess the take-home lesson here folks is don't give your daughter a bubble bath.

 

[KoldKase]

Hey I wonder if you're from outside the US, since the phrase is usually "you can be the FARM on it" as I hear it.

I do think the handwriting is suspiciously similar. I do wonder why many credible handwriting experts have ruled out PR.

Many? I have seen ONE who ruled Patsy out. I have a theory about that, but never mind....

Could you provide a source for "many credible handwriting experts have ruled out PR"? Thanks in advance.

 

[voynich]

Many? I have seen ONE who ruled Patsy out. I have a theory about that, but never mind....

Could you provide a source for "many credible handwriting experts have ruled out PR"? Thanks in advance.

The Carnes decision in itself cites several who do so.
The JB wiki has several listed.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Patsy+Ramsey+as+RN+Author

Evidence Patsy Ramsey is Not the RN Writer
Summary Findings Favorable to Patsy Ramsey

* No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]



* Odds "Very Low" Patsy Wrote Note

1. Carnes Decision. "Rather, the experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. (SMF P 196; PSMF P 196.) On a scale of one to five, with five being elimination as the author of the Ransom Note, the experts placed Mrs. Ramsey at a 4.5 or a 4.0. (SMF P 203; PSMF P 203.) The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." (SMF P 204; PSMF P 204.) (Carnes 2003:26).

* Numerous Significant Dissimilarities Rule Out Patsy. "The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the Note. (SMF P 254.)" (Carnes 2003:26). "Defendants' experts base their conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey is not the author of the Ransom Note on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristics of Mrs. Ramsey's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note. (SMF P 247.) For example, defendants asserts Mrs. Ramsey's written letter "u" consistently differs from the way the same letter is written throughout the Ransom Note. (SMF P 248.)" (Carnes 2003:27).



* Expertise of Examiners. The expertise and high ethical standards of these experts was summarized by Darnay Hoffman, an attorney for Chris Wolf, who sought to prove that Patsy Ramsey was the note writer, in a fax to Tom Miller, a handwriting expert he had hired (see below): "I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn...He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I.--four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won't give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."

1. Osborn Expertise. Paul A. Osborn himself is at the top of his field with over 50 years of experience: "he has been qualified as an expert and has testified on the subject of disputed documents in civil and criminal courts on more than four hundred and fifty occasions in the states of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and seventeen other states, as well as in the Panama Canal Zone, Virgin Islands and Canada....In 1992, Mr. Osborn was awarded the Gesellschaft F�r Forensische Shriftuntersuchung E. V. Medal of Recognition for Outstanding Merit from the European Society of forensic document examiners."
2. Experts Being Referenced by Osborn. The four experts alluded to in Hoffman's fax are Dusak, Ubowski, Speckin and Alford.


Individual Expert Opinions Favorable to Patsy Ramsey
Experts Consulted By BPD/BDA (6 experts inclusive of 2 hired by Ramseys)
Richard Dusak

* Dusak Findings. "Richard Dusick (sic) of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." (SMF P 200; PSMF P 200.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).



* Qualifications. Dusak is a member of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners. According to ABFDE: "The American Board of Forensic Document Examiners (ABFDE) is the only certifying board sponsored by the American Society of Questioned Document Examiners, the Canadian Society of Forensic Sciences, The Southeastern Association of Forensic Document Examiners, the Southwestern Association of Forensic Document Examiners, and is recognized by the American Academy of Forensic Sciences."

 

[KoldKase]

Err...thanks. Okay. I did not know this. I don't have any more questions about this.


I guess the take-home lesson here folks is don't give your daughter a bubble bath.

Voynich, the autopsy is definitive, and not ONE expert has denied that JonBenet had chronic vaginal injury to her vagina.

I'm a woman. I have taken and loved bubble baths since I was a tot. I have never had any kind of "condition" from it, much less vaginitis. That's just a RST myth they use because they HAVE to explain these prior vaginal injuries somehow.

Otherwise, the Ramseys are drawn further in the inner circle pool of suspects who would have had the OPPORTUNITY to molest JonBenet before the night she was murdered. Otherwise, they'd have to argue an "intruder" also managed to get to JonBenet BEFORE that night as well. That's an even harder sell.

Patsy Ramsey spent about 30 seconds in minor shock after being told by LE Det. Haney that JonBenet had been molested prior to the night of her murder. She said she hadn't heard that before, and this was in June of 1998. Her PI there with her, Armistead, interjected that "this hasn't been confirmed" when she looked to him. So her next response was, ON CUE: "I WANT TO SEE THAT REPORT."

Her child was sexually abused and murdered under the Ramseys' noses UNDETECTED, they say, on the night of Dec. 25, but when told JonBenet had been molested BEFORE that night, Patsy's response was PROVE IT? Not, I'll do everything in my power to find out who did this to my baby! Not, I'll be dogging every single person who even LOOKED at JonBenet before that night! Not, Have you questioned EVERYONE, have you investigated this, have you done everything on this Earth to find out who that person is? Not, let me think of ANYONE AND EVERYONE who had the opportunity to do this to my PROTECTED AND WELL-SUPERVISED baby!

Remember that JonBenet was not running around the 'hood without anyone bothering to keep up with her. JonBenet was a child in a very low risk situation for abuse and murder by a stranger or casual acquaintance.

It doesn't bother me that people don't think there was prior molestation. don't understand though when people refuse to even CONSIDER that there was prior molestation, because the child's hymen was mostly missing and the rim was worn. That's not bubble bath. Healing found in the tissue from samples taken at autopsy prove this didn't happen that night.

 

[KoldKase]

[snip]

Even if PR wanted to write a RN in her own handwriting, it's hard to see that this would be something JR would agree with, since if he has the foresight to stage the crime scene with garrote and other sexual devices, in anticipation of an autopsy which might reveal a past history of sexual abuse, and his foresight of his need for lawyers, he would allow the PR note to stand as evidence since he could foresee attempts on the part of LE to link the handwriting and language to them. He could have snatched that RN out of PR's hand, yell at her saying don't you know how self-incriminating this is to us? and destroyed it along with other unidentified and missing evidence.

I don't see PR had "no choice" about writing a RN, and certainly not a LONG one...and even if she wanted to write one, why she didn't have it printed out, or why JR would allow it. Why she called 911 when she did, rather than delaying for more coverup preparation. The R's had a lot of choices after they killed JB, whenever that happened and why.

While I don't want to get into sexual abuse and post-crime conduct, I do like to point out that Charles Lindbergh's conduct after the kidnapping of his baby was *extremely* suspicious.

I do think there should be a manual or online guidance on how [geniunely innocent] parents *should* behave after a kidnapping of their child and when they become the prime suspects. For all we know, their lawyers gave them the advice to follow.

One RDI theory that makes sense to me is Burke did it, and the R's are covering up.

First, the Ramseys had to explain their dead daughter in their basement somehow. If there had been NO ransom note, then think about how many other ways they could have done that TO THROW SUSPICION AWAY FROM THEM.

"Hello. 911? My daughter is missing. I have no idea.... She's just gone. Sure, we've searched the house, the neighborhood, called all our friends...can't find her."

"You found her in the basement room? Gosh, why didn't we think to look there? Guess we should have awakened Burke and asked him what he knew after all...."

"What do you mean, you're taking us downtown for questioning? We won't go! What are those handcuffs for...?"

They had no other alternative but to take her body out of the home, dump it, and then they'd risk being seen coming or going in their vehicle at strange hours JUST WHEN their child went missing. No "proper burial", plus the elements and wild animals would destroy the body, so family try to protect it and "undo" what they've done, as John Douglas once wrote.

John Douglas ONCE wrote, dumping your child's body and leaving it to the elements is not easy for parents or someone who loves the child, and I don't think many claim the Ramseys did not love JonBenet. Douglas once described exactly how a family member murdered in the home plays out when it's staged to look like an intruder did it. The Ramsey case is textbook.

As to writing on the computer and printing out the ransom note, that would have involved the "intruder" sitting at the computer in the home, accessing the programs, TYPING on the keyboard, PRINTING OUT THE COPY on the PRINTER, and that is another set of problems. Computers and printers can be analyzed, after all. In 1996, how many people would have been eliminated as suspects when their lack of computer expertise was established? What "foreign faction" would have bothered to write a ransom note on the Ramseys' computer, and not another before they arrived? Computers, keyboards, and printers make noises. Do we even know in which rooms the Ramsey's computer were kept? That could have been an issue. A time of death would have been established, as well.

The length of the ransom note was pure Patsy: she wanted to make sure that LE was led away from the Ramseys, thus the foreign faction. Remember she wrote a PRACTICE NOTE OR TWO. Ressler, the former FBI profiler, once said that people who write fake ransom notes write about what THEY FEAR. John's company was a division of an international arms dealer, Lockheed Martin: hello? Companies on par with LM even have armored cars for their executives when they travel overseas BECAUSE OF KIDNAPPING rings. They even have insurance FOR kidnapping of their execs. They have training for employees ABOUT what to do in case of a kidnapping and did at the time of this murder. These are facts that have long been established in this case, spoken about by people who have worked in high security positions in government contractual situations, including a security director for Lockheed Martin in Denver at the time of the murder, lawyer Norm Early, I believe is his name. He's been on TV many times and he has spoken about the fact that on the morning JonBenet was found to have been "kidnapped", NO ONE at Lockheed Martin contacted HIM about anything, which was against the clear protocol of the company, he said.

Think about that.

As far as how the parents of a murder victim act, of course people act differently under such horrible circumstances. However, if their priority from DAY ONE is to refuse to even TALK to LE...that's always going to look suspicious, and even LIN WOOD said as much.

In my opinion, we don't really know exactly the sequence of events, what really took place in the home that night from the time the Ramseys arrived back home until they called 911 and LE arrived the next morning. All we know is what the evidence tells us, and we don't even have all of that. Most of us are amateurs. The experts can't agree on much of anything, either, from what we've seen.

So as far as I've seen, and I've looked long and hard, there were four people we know of who were in the house that night, and those who lived to talk about it have told inconsistent stories all along. They undeniably obstructed the investigation when they refused to go to the BPD for four months, no matter what excuses they made. The evidence has always led back to them. NOTHING in the crime has EVER been linked to anyone outside of the home, not in 12 years of the most highly publicized unsolved murder case in our lives. The ransom note leads straight to Patsy.

But which one, or more, did the rest? I doubt we'll ever know.