JR lies right off the bat...

[JMO8778]

Yes and it was Patsy for many reasons that I have suspected that along with so many other signs. We have a DIL that has bipolar and other issues and I recognize many of them in this situaton.

me too!!!! (although it isn't a DIL in our family),but I suspect she inherited it from Nedra;she didn't sound quite all there as well.

 

[JMO8778]

BOESP,

The forensic evidence suggests sexual molestation, Coroner Meyer's verbatim autopsy remarks digital penetration cannot be less precise, he is the pathologist, he was there , we were not.

That JonBenet was sexually abused appears a credible theory with supporting evidence, other theories are redundant until the sexual abuse can be shown to be inconsistent.

Corporal cleansing, douching etc have no supporting forensic evidence at all, there are no douching products mentioned in any warrant lists, Steve Thomas has never mentioned any such items, and its his theory, which he admits is also inclonclusive.

JonBenet's parents and her extended family contributed towards grooming a 6-year old Pageant Princess who also displays signs of both chronic and acute sexual molestation, along with public displays of sexual precociousness.

One thing that is missing are the family photographs taken of JonBenet, e.g. those taken or found down in the basement, the poses, her dresses, or lack of, any makeup, lipstick, hairstyles etc all may give us a further insight into the psychology of the person grooming JonBenet. In some of her public photographs JonBenet appears 6 going on 16, wearing makeup, or adopting provocative poses. I suspect psychologically Patsy was ceding place to JonBenet by allowing such behaviour, possibly even a tacit approval of another role JonBenet was playing within the dynamics of the Ramsey family relationships?


.
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good thoughts

 

[JMO8778]

Jon Benet would be alive todayif they would have dealt with the mental health issues. Rage that sontaneously combusts like that isnt a secret from the family. It is seen and excused away, ...

JR had a real lack of respect for boundaries;he showed that in his first marriage,and for religious beliefs as well;ie- he went to church yet,didn't heed the beliefs and boundaries of either marriage nor religion...I don't know if that had anything to do w/ the murder,or if incest was involved,but by the time JB was killed,he'd certainly already showed he didn't mind stepping outside the box to get own his way.

 

[BOESP]

Get a grip you guys....DOUCHING??? Did JonBenet have her period? Women usually douch after sex and when they are menstruating.

If there was indeed douching, the chemicals would be noticed by CBI technicians because JonBenet's vaginal area was swabbed. This is something only Sybils mother would do....not Patsy.

We were speculating on what could have caused hymeneal erosion. In some cultures, douching is a cleanliness procedure and vinegar and water used a few days before wouldn't necessarily leave traces to be found several days later. There seems definitely to have been some type acute vaginal trauma and some reports suggested it could have been chronic. Douching for cleanliness is a possibility.

Home remedies are used by people other than Sybil's mother.

 

[BOESP]

Yes and it was Patsy for many reasons that I have suspected that along with so many other signs. We have a DIL that has bipolar and other issues and I recognize many of them in this situaton.

Thanks CK. I appreciate your openness.

 

[BOESP]

...

Corporal cleansing, douching etc have no supporting forensic evidence at all, there are no douching products mentioned in any warrant lists, Steve Thomas has never mentioned any such items, and its his theory, which he admits is also inclonclusive. ....

CLARIFICATION: By all accounts, JonBenet had an incontinence problem. I wasn't referring to corporal cleansing or Steve Thomas's theory. To some, douching is a cleansing routine or one used for certain ailments. I have no idea if Patsy used douches on JonBenet but based on the publicly reported autopsy, JonBenet had vaginal trauma and douching for cleanliness or the curing of an ailment could be a possibility. It doesn't have to be corporal or punishment. I also mentioned it could be from applying an ointment or suppository. It could be from digital sexual abuse (meaning someone was deriving sexual gratification). It's all speculation as to what caused it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've never suscribed to the douching theory, though I could see where some of the vaginal injuries could be the result of it.
Actually, what I really believe- is that the erosion, bruising, and bleeding were ALL caused by sexual abuse- probably digital penetration- which occurred THAT NIGHT AND PREVIOUS OCCASIONS. I believe one of the previous occasions was the night of the R party on Dec. 23rd. Not necessarily the ONLY previous occasion. I believe when JBR voiced objections, she was told it was because she "was so pretty". That, IMHO, is what led her to say, with tears, "I don't feel pretty".

BTW, what the autopsy refers to is "thin watery red fluid" (which, to me means blood) in the vaginal vault, with blood on the forchette.

 

[JMO8778]

I've never suscribed to the douching theory, though I could see where some of the vaginal injuries could be the result of it.
Actually, what I really believe- is that the erosion, bruising, and bleeding were ALL caused by sexual abuse- probably digital penetration- which occurred THAT NIGHT AND PREVIOUS OCCASIONS. I believe one of the previous occasions was the night of the R party on Dec. 23rd. Not necessarily the ONLY previous occasion. I believe when JBR voiced objections, she was told it was because she "was so pretty". That, IMHO, is what led her to say, with tears, "I don't feel pretty".

me too,as something sure was amiss with that party...the 911 call...SS NOT opening the door to the police...(where were the R's? why did she respond instead?how much alcohol was served at that party?) IMO,the R's were taking care of a certain situation which precipitated the call...and SS was told to take care of LE...and not to open the door to them.She knew something was amiss,even if she didn't know quite what.

 

[BOESP]

I've never suscribed to the douching theory, though I could see where some of the vaginal injuries could be the result of it.
Actually, what I really believe- is that the erosion, bruising, and bleeding were ALL caused by sexual abuse- probably digital penetration- which occurred THAT NIGHT AND PREVIOUS OCCASIONS. I believe one of the previous occasions was the night of the R party on Dec. 23rd. Not necessarily the ONLY previous occasion. I believe when JBR voiced objections, she was told it was because she "was so pretty". That, IMHO, is what led her to say, with tears, "I don't feel pretty".

BTW, what the autopsy refers to is "thin watery red fluid" (which, to me means blood) in the vaginal vault, with blood on the forchette.

As far as douching, I was answering a question posed by another poster who wondered what COULD have been done to cause the type injuries described in the autopsy -- just wanted to make it clear where I stand. I don't have enough information to form an opinion about what really happened or not.

 

[UKGuy]

CLARIFICATION: By all accounts, JonBenet had an incontinence problem. I wasn't referring to corporal cleansing or Steve Thomas's theory. To some, douching is a cleansing routine or one used for certain ailments. I have no idea if Patsy used douches on JonBenet but based on the publicly reported autopsy, JonBenet had vaginal trauma and douching for cleanliness or the curing of an ailment could be a possibility. It doesn't have to be corporal or punishment. I also mentioned it could be from applying an ointment or suppository. It could be from digital sexual abuse (meaning someone was deriving sexual gratification). It's all speculation as to what caused it.

BOESP,

Sure and some speculation has evidence supporting it , some dont.

.

 

[UKGuy]

me too,as something sure was amiss with that party...the 911 call...SS NOT opening the door to the police...(where were the R's? why did she respond instead?how much alcohol was served at that party?) IMO,the R's were taking care of a certain situation which precipitated the call...and SS was told to take care of LE...and not to open the door to them.She knew something was amiss,even if she didn't know quite what.

JMO8778,

And just what kind of issue would they not want the police to know about? What kind of issue would elicit that response, latterly is it coincidental that Susan Stine became a Ramsey defender?


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

And just what kind of issue would they not want the police to know about? What kind of issue would elicit that response, latterly is it coincidental that Susan Stine became a Ramsey defender?


.

the same thing as you think;and I'm guessing you think some kind of sexual abuse of JB.Esp.in regards to the crying and the comment she made to JM,the 'I don't feel pretty' comment.(I'm guessing that happened after the 911 call,anyone know for sure?)
Yes,I think SS did know,if she didn't quite know at the time,then she sure had it figured out later,b/c she wasn't the least bit afraid of driving the kids to school by herself,or of having the R's come to live with her family,even though the 'SFF' had just killed BR's sister.
Some have tried to counter that with saying SS was called a 'pitbull'.I don't care how tough she is,I don't see how a lone pitbull vs a SFF could not evoke some fear.Her lack of fear is right up there with BR's,IMO.They both know something.

 

[Albert18]

Regarding the 911 call on the 23rd, it really could just be a mistake.

From what I have read, the Ramsey's did not have a typical residential phone system, the system was like what a business would have. You have to remember this would have been early 1990's or earlier technology.

I believe you had to dial a number to access an outside line. Usually that number is a 9. If somebody is making a long distance phone call, the next number dialed is a 1. Right there you have 91.

 

[UKGuy]

the same thing as you think;and I'm guessing you think some kind of sexual abuse of JB.Esp.in regards to the crying and the comment she made to JM,the 'I don't feel pretty' comment.(I'm guessing that happened after the 911 call,anyone know for sure?)
Yes,I think SS did know,if she didn't quite know at the time,then she sure had it figured out later,b/c she wasn't the least bit afraid of driving the kids to school by herself,or of having the R's come to live with her family,even though the 'SFF' had just killed BR's sister.
Some have tried to counter that with saying SS was called a 'pitbull'.I don't care how tough she is,I don't see how a lone pitbull vs a SFF could not evoke some fear.Her lack of fear is right up there with BR's,IMO.They both know something.

JMO8778,
It sure looks that way, even without JonBenet remarks, it looks a curious response to not open the door and let the officer see all was ok?

It maybe that events at this party were the catalyst that brought matters to a head upon returning from the White's. I wonder if JonBenet said something that caused an angry response?

SS involvement has led to speculation that the Ramsey's dysfunctional family lifestyle extended beyond their front door?


.

 

[JMO8778]

Regarding the 911 call on the 23rd, it really could just be a mistake.

From what I have read, the Ramsey's did not have a typical residential phone system, the system was like what a business would have. You have to remember this would have been early 1990's or earlier technology.

I believe you had to dial a number to access an outside line. Usually that number is a 9. If somebody is making a long distance phone call, the next number dialed is a 1. Right there you have 91.

thx Albert,could be,but SS not opening the door,her behavior after the murder,and JB's comments lead me to believe something was happening inside the house that they did not want police to know about.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Sure and some speculation has evidence supporting it , some dont.

.

I realize there is speculation that a portion of a wooden fine arts paint brush could have been used on JonBenet. Also, my reading of the autopsy indicates there was trauma but I find nothing mentioned about what caused it. Obviously, the autopsy describes an abnormal condition for a six-year-old. I don't interpret the autopsy as going beyond saying anything other than that. The autopsy does not speculate on the cause. The "Final Interpretation" section doesn't even mention it at all.

I have also read the published opinions of several physicians from various walks of life who consulted in this case. Their responses aren't mutual.

I agree whatever happened is not normal for a six-year-old child.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
It sure looks that way, even without JonBenet remarks, it looks a curious response to not open the door and let the officer see all was ok?

It sure is.Seems she was afraid they might want to come in.

It maybe that events at this party were the catalyst that brought matters to a head upon returning from the White's. I wonder if JonBenet said something that caused an angry response?

could be,and maybe that's one reason they said she was asleep...and also got BR to say she was asleep?
Also remember they stopped by the Stine's on the way home that night;whether anything occured in relation to that,I don't know.I do wonder if JB went in while there though.It seems SS could be lying when she said JB was asleep in the car then?

SS involvement has led to speculation that the Ramsey's dysfunctional family lifestyle extended beyond their front door?


.

OH YES,I couldn't agree more ! I think the Stine's were their REAL friends,while upstanding ppl like the White's were ppl they were friendly with,but who didn't really know them...they didn't know what they were really like.Perhaps that was just strategy on the part of the R's??Much the same reason they went to church..they felt a need to align themselves w/ ppl who had a wholesome image,so they themselves would appear to be wholesome as well.
Only that backfired in the end,for precisely the same reason they chose those friends to begin with...because they ARE upstanding,righteous ppl,and the White's didn't let them get away with the obvious charade they saw going on,and called them on it.SO at that point,JR had no other choice but to turn on the righteous friends,and throw them under the bus in order to cause them to appear unrighteous...and they themselves,still righteous.

 

[UKGuy]

I realize there is speculation that a portion of a wooden fine arts paint brush could have been used on JonBenet. Also, my reading of the autopsy indicates there was trauma but I find nothing mentioned about what caused it. Obviously, the autopsy describes an abnormal condition for a six-year-old. I don't interpret the autopsy as going beyond saying anything other than that. The autopsy does not speculate on the cause. The "Final Interpretation" section doesn't even mention it at all.

I have also read the published opinions of several physicians from various walks of life who consulted in this case. Their responses aren't mutual.

I agree whatever happened is not normal for a six-year-old child.

BOESP,

Also you should take into account Coroner Meyer's verbal remarks during the autopsy that JonBenet's vaginal trauma indicated digital penetration, this is important precisely because he was there, he knows whether to discount the paintbrush handle, if the missing piece was left inside her, add to this JonBenet's eroded hymen, then there is patently chronic and acute injury to JonBenet's genitalia.


.

 

[UKGuy]

It sure is.Seems she was afraid they might want to come in.

could be,and maybe that's one reason they said she was asleep...and also got BR to say she was asleep?
Also remember they stopped by the Stine's on the way home that night;whether anything occured in relation to that,I don't know.I do wonder if JB went in while there though.It seems SS could be lying when she said JB was asleep in the car then?

OH YES,I couldn't agree more ! I think the Stine's were their REAL friends,while upstanding ppl like the White's were ppl they were friendly with,but who didn't really know them...they didn't know what they were really like.Perhaps that was just strategy on the part of the R's??Much the same reason they went to church..they felt a need to align themselves w/ ppl who had a wholesome image,so they themselves would appear to be wholesome as well.
Only that backfired in the end,for precisely the same reason they chose those friends to begin with...because they ARE upstanding,righteous ppl,and the White's didn't let them get away with the obvious charade they saw going on,and called them on it.SO at that point,JR had no other choice but to turn on the righteous friends,and throw them under the bus in order to cause them to appear unrighteous...and they themselves,still righteous.

JMO8778,
Absolutely, there has been more than one theory that implicates the Stines, and why would SS go out of her way to assist people, whom for all she knew, may have been involved in the death of their daughter, and to also take the risk of committing criminal acts by using email to impersonate other notable people in Boulder, makes you wonder?


.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Also you should take into account Coroner Meyer's verbal remarks during the autopsy that JonBenet's vaginal trauma indicated digital penetration, this is important precisely because he was there, he knows whether to discount the paintbrush handle, if the missing piece was left inside her, add to this JonBenet's eroded hymen, then there is patently chronic and acute injury to JonBenet's genitalia.


.

Thanks UKGuy. I haven't read/listened to Meyer's verbal remarks. I'll do a search and see if I can find a transcript on that.