Judge Rules Family Can't Refuse Chemo for Child With Cancer

[southcitymom]

The associated press is stating that teh boy is really angry at being ordered to continue chemo. We may end up seeing another run away here. Hopefully the parents can remain strong, and the lawyers can keep these parents in line!

I have never gotten the feeling that the boy was down with this at all - and I am sure going through chemo just makes him angrier and more scared. I am not surprised at his feelings. If he ever has any positive feelings about this experience (and he may never get there - even if this chemo "cures" him, he may always believe he could have been cured through less drastic means and be resentful that his choice was taken from him), I'm sure it won't be for years down the road.

 

[fortytwo]

I have never gotten the feeling that the boy was down with this at all - and I am sure going through chemo just makes him angrier and more scared. I am not surprised at his feelings. If he ever has any positive feelings about this experience (and he may never get there - even if this chemo "cures" him, he may always believe he could have been cured through less drastic means and be resentful that his choice was taken from him), I'm sure it won't be for years down the road.

At least now he's got a better chance of having "years down the road".

 

[southcitymom]

At least now he's got a better chance of having "years down the road".

I agree that's what a lot of people think. I just don't know if he'll ever think that. Only time will tell.

 

[Bobbisangel]

My sister's grandson had this same kind of cancer when he was around 10-12 yrs. The family was told that this kind of cancer in children has a high rate of success for a cure once the child receives treatment. He went through the treatment and the cancer has been gone for years. He must be close to 30 yrs now and it has never come back.

I hope that the mother and son running and therefore wasting time when he should have been in treatment hasn't had any negative affects on the cancer. I mean, it seems that the best thing to do when a child is diagnosed is to start the treatment as soon a possible. I don't remember if this boy had even started treatment when him and his mother ran.

If the family was fearful about the treatments or didn't understand why didn't they talk with their doctor and ask all of the questions they needed to ask until they had a total understanding of the whole process? That would have been better then running while the tumor continued to grow.

 

[southcitymom]

My sister's grandson had this same kind of cancer when he was around 10-12 yrs. The family was told that this kind of cancer in children has a high rate of success for a cure once the child receives treatment. He went through the treatment and the cancer has been gone for years. He must be close to 30 yrs now and it has never come back.

I hope that the mother and son running and therefore wasting time when he should have been in treatment hasn't had any negative affects on the cancer. I mean, it seems that the best thing to do when a child is diagnosed is to start the treatment as soon a possible. I don't remember if this boy had even started treatment when him and his mother ran.

If the family was fearful about the treatments or didn't understand why didn't they talk with their doctor and ask all of the questions they needed to ask until they had a total understanding of the whole process? That would have been better then running while the tumor continued to grow.

I do think from everything I have read that the family did talk to the doctors and did hear what the doctor's had to say - they are just suspicious and wary of the doctor's advice (particularly after Daniel had reacted so negatively to the first round of chemo) and they have more faith in less invasive treatment measures.

The family has different beliefs regarding this issue than the majority - that is the crux of the whole case.

 

[fortytwo]

I do think from everything I have read that the family did talk to the doctors and did hear what the doctor's had to say - they are just suspicious and wary of the doctor's advice (particularly after Daniel had reacted so negatively to the first round of chemo) and they have more faith in less invasive treatment measures.

The family has different beliefs regarding this issue than the majority - that is the crux of the whole case.

(bold above by me)

I don't think this is a valid summary. It's not an issue of the family's beliefs as opposed to any quantity of other people's beliefs. It's a matter of the family's beliefs as opposed to a century of known science and accumulated experiential and experimental data.

If the ex-convict confidence artist that they placed their belief in had been able to provide some repeatable, peer reviewed test results from a series of controlled double-blind studies then there might have been some grounds for comparison.

 

[southcitymom]

(bold above by me)

I don't think this is a valid summary. It's not an issue of the family's beliefs as opposed to any quantity of other people's beliefs. It's a matter of the family's beliefs as opposed to a century of known science and accumulated experiential and experimental data.

If the ex-convict confidence artist that they placed their belief in had been able to provide some repeatable, peer reviewed test results from a series of controlled double-blind studies then there might have been some grounds for comparison.

MOO - Beliefs are based on faith, not facts. I understand not everyone feels this way, but I'm convinced that we humans make up our minds first and then go find all sorts of supporting evidence to validate the conclusions our minds (egos) come to.

In any event, when you believe something based on faith, double blind test studies don't matter. The very definition of faith is the belief in something not based on empirical "facts"! This family has different beliefs than the majority. The Court upheld the beliefs of the majority.

 

[BuzzieCat]

Sounds to me, though, that the family developed these beliefs AFTER the diagnosis. IMO they (understandably) didn't want the whole situation to be true, experienced one round of chemo and were (understandably) horrified, and started looking for something milder and easier to go through that they could convince themselves would work better. There's just, far as I know, no well documented, trustworthy information that anyone was ever healed from cancer - CANCER - with diet or herbs or what have you. You hear the odd case that someone got better without chemo but there's just too much unknown about their cases to, IMO, attribute their supposed healing to whatever method they used. I don't like chemo either, but IMO cancer doesn't just go away because we want it to.

In this family's case their actions seem to be, in my view, more of a system of denial than a system of beliefs.

 

[southcitymom]

Sounds to me, though, that the family developed these beliefs AFTER the diagnosis. IMO they (understandably) didn't want the whole situation to be true, experienced one round of chemo and were (understandably) horrified, and started looking for something milder and easier to go through that they could convince themselves would work better. There's just, far as I know, no well documented, trustworthy information that anyone was ever healed from cancer - CANCER - with diet or herbs or what have you. You hear the odd case that someone got better without chemo but there's just too much unknown about their cases to, IMO, attribute their supposed healing to whatever method they used. I don't like chemo either, but IMO cancer doesn't just go away because we want it to.

In this family's case their actions seem to be, in my view, more of a system of denial than a system of beliefs.

One of the interesting things in the Judge's interview with Daniel (and his Mom was there, IIRC) is that the family had never had to seek medical help before this incident. They have like 11 children and live on a farm and no one had ever broken a bone or gotten a cut that required stitches or anything - I found that fact rather astounding and it seemed like the Judge did too.

They were homeschooled, so the parents didn't vaccinate. The Judge asked a series of questions about the medical treatment of the children seeking, I am sure, to see if there were incidences where the family used Western medical remedies. But I don't recall there being an incident where they did. The Mom and Dad (mainly the Mom) just always treated them with old-fashioned, home-grown holistic remedies.

So unless I am mis-remembering what I read from this case file, I do not think it is fair to say they don't have a system of belief surrounding using non-traditional methods of healthcare NOT centered in the philosophies of Western medicine. It's not like these people spent years running to the Doc in the Box for every little sniffle and then decided to chuck it all when their child developed cancer. The majority of us might not agree with the decisions this family made as regards Daniel's cancer, but I do not think we can accuse them of not considering it carefully and seriously.

 

[BuzzieCat]

I don't think they really did consider it carefully. I can't say that I know that, but the mom's reaction to just run was not well thought out. Of course when you get a diagnosis like this anyone would be hard pressed to think rationally.

If they are all living in isolation amongst themselves on a farm, homeschooled, not often exposed to outside germs, then that would be one reason they didn't need to run to the doctor that much or at all. For the very mild illnesses they ever got, I'm sure chicken soup and time would probably suffice. If you don't get sick you don't need to go to a doctor. This cancer diagnosis had to be quite a shock. They didn't need to really think about what they believed about western medicine until the cancer forced them to. At first it was reported that Daniel didn't even think he was sick = denial. IMO.

 

[Kateyes]

Ok, I am seeing things a little differently, from a vantage point of an RN. I cannot tell you how many times a doctor provides an "explanation" to the family, but doesn't break it down into understandable terms. If this family never sought medical help previously, they are most likely extremely naive and have a lack of knowledge re: all things medical. Most patients will shake their heads yes to the doctor that they understand, but the real problem is they understand so little that they don't even know where to begin asking questions.

A nurse liasion to work with the family may have gone a long way to preventing many of the problems here; maybe even some family counseling coordinated through social services at the hospital. This whole family fell through the cracks re: patient education. I would bet that the doctor told the family that this was a condition that is usually cured with chemotherapy, and then simply scheduled it. This child, nor the family understood that chemotherapy does make you feel pretty bad, that it can make you throw up, but medicaitons can be given to prevent or decrease it, etc. etc. They probably were not told that the sickness from the treatment did not mean it wasn't working or that he would die from the treatment. Anyone who sees a loved one go through a procedure or treatment that results in the patient having pain, or feeling bad for days would think the treatment wasn't working. I am appalled that, as it seems to me, this family did not understand the full ramifications of treatment, etc, and no one from the medical team stepped in as an advocate to provide much needed patient and family eduction.

 

[BuzzieCat]

Doctors do tend to do that. They send you home and then are surprised that you weren't expecting the pain, discomfort, or side effects that they didn't warn you about!

 

[Kateyes]

Doctors do tend to do that. They send you home and then are surprised that you weren't expecting the pain, discomfort, or side effects that they didn't warn you about!

Yep, I don't mean to sound biased, well, maybe I do. If you want real information, patient education and compassion you need to speak with a nurse. The doctor is already busy with the next patient because his practice manager has him on a schedule with profit as the primary driving factor. JMHO

 

[PeteyGirl]

MOO - Beliefs are based on faith, not facts. I understand not everyone feels this way, but I'm convinced that we humans make up our minds first and then go find all sorts of supporting evidence to validate the conclusions our minds (egos) come to.

In any event, when you believe something based on faith, double blind test studies don't matter. The very definition of faith is the belief in something not based on empirical "facts"! This family has different beliefs than the majority. The Court upheld the beliefs of the majority.

Ain't that the truth :clap:

Yep. At least, at first. It takes deliberate effort to budge belief systems, all the facts in the world will be tossed aside as hooey if the belief system is reinforced by suspicion.

As a nurse I've run across factual data that blew many of my belief systems out of the water. No, I didn't WANT to change my beliefs, but I chose to change them. I am not a research scientist, and must basically "take on faith" the objective data provided by them. I have experienced the scientific process both in college and in my career, and am OFTEN surprised at the results.

Therefore, I don't quite trust myself to KNOW enough to really discern truth and bet my life on it, unless I have direct, experiential proof that in use seems to WORK.

Interesitng . . . when a scientist explores a hypothesis, first he/she attempts to disprove it. That is BACKWARDS from what we laypeople do with ideas that we want to explore!!

 

[Trino]

Update:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Daniel Hauser has finished his cancer treatment and is doing well. The court has bowed out of the case. There's a current picture of Daniel.

 

[angelmom]

Update:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Daniel Hauser has finished his cancer treatment and is doing well. The court has bowed out of the case. There's a current picture of Daniel.

I had to search from that link and found a video, but no actual article or blog post. I wonder if it was moved. ???

Here's the video I found:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2009/10/24/lkl.teen.chemo.cnn

I'm so glad Danny is doing well. He looks great and healthy. They say the doctors are "astounded" by how well he did during treatment, and credit the combination of alternative medicine and the chemo.

Interesting that they never mention the judge to say "thank you" for saving him or even "I'm sorry" for risking Danny's life and causing so much trouble.

 

[southcitymom]

Thanks, Trino and Angel (I couldn't find a story from that initial link either). It's such a brief interview that it's hard to get a full handle on how they feel about specifics (ie - ARE they grateful that the Judge ordered this against their wishes, etc?....) In this short segment, they seem to focus more on the alternative treatments.

I am so glad he is doing well and I hope the cancer is gone for good! Clearly, this family is not real comfortable being in the public eye.....kind of the complete opposite of the Balloon Boy family!

 

[angelmom]

Thanks, Trino and Angel (I couldn't find a story from that initial link either). It's such a brief interview that it's hard to get a full handle on how they feel about specifics (ie - ARE they grateful that the Judge ordered this against their wishes, etc?....) In this short segment, they seem to focus more on the alternative treatments.

I am so glad he is doing well and I hope the cancer is gone for good! Clearly, this family is not real comfortable being in the public eye.....kind of the complete opposite of the Balloon Boy family!

BBM...I agree. That interview was like pulling teeth. Makes me wonder why they were so insistent that the records be open, and why they were willing to be interviewed. Obviously they are not seeking attention. Maybe they are just trying to share their views of alternative medicine.

 

[PeteyGirl]

I tried to watch the video but the family's discomfort was too much for me!

Don't people get reimbursed for their interviews? Otherwise I get the impression they want to be left alone, and never did want this media hullaballoo anywhere near them.

I am an oncology nurse, barely so. I completed the requisite year of experience, and went to the classes to get certified to administer chemo. After giving two rounds now, I had to wrench myself from the patient's bedside, afraid to leave them, knowing the volatile chemicals and what they are capable of doing, in theory. We wear gowns, gloves and masks when administering chemo to protect OURSELVES. Exposure to these chemicals over time has shown to produce leukemias.

I have posted on this thread before. I still stand by my words then but with a new insight. If nurses gowned up to pour chemicals into MY son, the contradiction would set off all kinds of terror in me, in SPITE of my education as a nurse (18 years worth) and as a new oncology nurse.

Also, by interrupting his chemo regimen, the parents may have reduced their boy's chances for a cure. Chemo administration is very much about timing. From confirmation of a lymphoma to the first chemo administration is HOURS, a day perhaps. That is how crucial a swift treatment is. This makes sense then of the judge's decision to rope the family back in as he did. The timing of the subsequent chemo treatments is crucial.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

MINNEAPOLIS — A Minnesota teen who fled the state to avoid chemotherapy has finished his cancer treatment.
Daniel Hauser of Sleepy Eye underwent his final radiation session Friday, and his family says the 13-year-old is cancer-free.
Daniel gained national attention when he stopped treatment after one session in February and fled, citing his religious beliefs. After he returned, he underwent court-ordered chemo to treat Hodgkin's lymphoma, then started radiation therapy.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572917,00.html