Judge Rules Family Can't Refuse Chemo for Child With Cancer

New Posts

lizzybeth said:
I had ALL at eleven and I didn't want to take chemo either. I wanted to go home and pretend there was nothing wrong with me. My parents didn't listen and I went through five years of chemo. Thinking back, I'm so glad I did. It was hell, but I'm relatively healthy now and I have two beautiful children.

I can understand if there were no hope of a cure or remission for this young man. Then I would say why make him go through with it? Let him enjoy what time he has left, but he has a 95% chance of being cured.

When he's thirty I can't see him asking his parents "why did you make me go through with it?" I see him saying "thank you for getting me the treatment that I needed."
JMO
Click to expand...

If there's a way to send this boy your message, you should do so. It's very inspiring and may help him. Please consider doing it.
 
While I respect everyone's opinion, I believe the judge did the right thing. I don't know any child that would WANT the treatments knowing that the side effects can be awful and terrifying, but the alternative is this child dying! I don't know how any parent could refuse the chemo knowing that their is only a 5% chance of survival without it.
 
HesterMofet said:
There is an old joke that this reminds me of. It's about a man who is trapped in his house during a flood. He crawls up on the roof and prays to God to save him. A boat comes by and the people say, "Come on in, we'll rescue you!" He says, "No, God will save me!" The water continues to rise Another boat comes by and he shoos them off the same way. The water is now up to his neck. A helicopter hovers overhead and the pilot shouts down, "Grab the rope and we'll get you out of there." He says, "No, God will save me!" The helicopter flies away. The man drowns and gets to the Pearly Gates. Upon meeting God, he says, "I prayed, God. Why didn't you save me?" And God replies, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more could I do?"

Modern medicine is the equivalent of the boats and the helicopter. If you believe in God, why not believe that he gave us the abilities to find this medicine?
Click to expand...

Certainly you have that choice. IMHO, it is also reasonable to believe that God can and does intervene directly without the need for man's help. It is even reasonable to believe you got the cancer and that must be the will of God and so be it if you die. The point is - there are many reasonable courses that could be taken here.

It is, however, unreasonable to REQUIRE a person to take poison into his body - or to REQUIRE that a parent approve of treating their child with poison.

Sure, these days we say chemo is the best option for most if not all cancers. I wonder if in the future, we will look at chemo to treat cancer in the same way as we now look at leeches and/or bloodletting to treat disease - inventive, to be sure, but barbaric and perhaps just a little insane...

I have nothing against chemo. I may well avail myself of it in the future should the need ever present. But to be FORCED to do that - to be FORCED to give it to my child....NO WAY!
 
The family has said they are going to have the x-rays and tests the Court has ordered. I really wonder what course they will choose should the Court decide the cancer is treatable via Western medicine dictates.

I have read some more of the docs (though not the Judge's final opinion). All of the experts have told the family that the child has this type of cancer that could be treated with a 95% success rate with chemo. The child and the Mom and the Dad have this information, and yet they have chosen a different course of treatment and they feel like that course of treatment is working for them. I respect their choices.

To call these parents who have raised/are raising a bunch of, by all accounts well-loved, well-cared for kids negligent is insulting and disrespectful and doesn't seem to fit the facts of the case.
 
southcitymom said:
Certainly you have that choice. IMHO, it is also reasonable to believe that God can and does intervene directly without the need for man's help. It is even reasonable to believe you got the cancer and that must be the will of God and so be it if you die. The point is - there are many reasonable courses that could be taken here.

It is, however, unreasonable to REQUIRE a person to take poison into his body - or to REQUIRE that a parent approve of treating their child with poison.

Sure, these days we say chemo is the best option for most if not all cancers. I wonder if in the future, we will look at chemo to treat cancer in the same way as we now look at leeches and/or bloodletting to treat disease - inventive, to be sure, but barbaric and perhaps just a little insane...

I have nothing against chemo. I may well avail myself of it in the future should the need ever present. But to be FORCED to do that - to be FORCED to give it to my child....NO WAY!
Click to expand...

But, don't you sometimes force your child to do things that they don't want to do but which are in their best interests? It seems that with a 90-95% chance of recovery that chemo would be in the child's interest.

You say, "No way." If the court ruled you had to do so, how far would you go?
 
If as an adult you make a choice not to get treatment, that's one thing. But for a child I don't think it's right not to try a treatment that has a pretty good success rate. In this boy's case, chemo would have an excellent chance of working and it would be a shame not to try it IMO. I think that this boy is not competent to make his own decision because: 1) he is only 13 and 2) his parents are probably influencing him.

He is awfully young, doesn't want to feel sick from chemo (who would?), and he is being influenced and encouraged by his parents that chemo isn't necessary. How could he possibly make a rational, considered decision? If some scary doctor comes up to you, a child, and says, "Here, take these treatments that will make you feel horrible but you will probably live a normal life afterwards!" and then your parents say, "Those treatments will make you sick and you are fine as you are. Let's go home" - what are you going to choose?
 
ziggy said:
Everyone has expressed very good points on both sides.

I find myself sometimes thinking...what is wrong with dying? That sounds really terrible, but it IS a part of life. None of us are getting out of here alive.

Some may believe that this is God's will and that either reincarnation or a better existence is waiting for them. Who are we to force them to keep living when sparing that life forcefully may cause the person short term suffering, or a lifetime of constant medical treatment to address issues created by the original treatment?

Maybe we should honor the right for people to decide that if they have a terminal illness, they should be allowed to die from it if they want to. Because he is only 13 and can't educate himself is indeed a quandry.

Regardless what our heart tells us about "his" rights, his parents believe and more importantly he believes this treatment will kill him. It matters not that his parents may have influenced this belief. The bigger issue is that if he believes this, chances are he will be right. The power of belief is a major factor here.

I just can't see what good it would do to force this.

If he dies, then their beliefs will also sustain them. I think it's OK sometimes to admit that there is nothing that can be done to change a belief system.

What is wrong with dying really?
Click to expand...

WOW. This is a fascinating post my dear. My head is starting to hurt because it gets me into deep thinking. Thank you.

I think the basic thought is we must protect the innocent and this child is innocent and deserves to live. Not to die because his parents have these weird ideas that do not help his healing in any way.

If he was an adult whole different story but he is a child and we as adults must protect a child when we see one in danger. This child is in danger.
 
teonspaleprincess said:
While I respect everyone's opinion, I believe the judge did the right thing. I don't know any child that would WANT the treatments knowing that the side effects can be awful and terrifying, but the alternative is this child dying! I don't know how any parent could refuse the chemo knowing that their is only a 5% chance of survival without it.
Click to expand...


ITA! This thread makes me upset... Guess I'm getting too sensitive...
 
BuzzieCat said:
If as an adult you make a choice not to get treatment, that's one thing. But for a child I don't think it's right not to try a treatment that has a pretty good success rate. In this boy's case, chemo would have an excellent chance of working and it would be a shame not to try it IMO. I think that this boy is not competent to make his own decision because: 1) he is only 13 and 2) his parents are probably influencing him.

He is awfully young, doesn't want to feel sick from chemo (who would?), and he is being influenced and encouraged by his parents that chemo isn't necessary. How could he possibly make a rational, considered decision? If some scary doctor comes up to you, a child, and says, "Here, take these treatments that will make you feel horrible but you will probably live a normal life afterwards!" and then your parents say, "Those treatments will make you sick and you are fine as you are. Let's go home" - what are you going to choose?
Click to expand...


This post sums up what I'm thinking, at least at this point.
 
ziggy said:
Everyone has expressed very good points on both sides.

I find myself sometimes thinking...what is wrong with dying? That sounds really terrible, but it IS a part of life. None of us are getting out of here alive.

Some may believe that this is God's will and that either reincarnation or a better existence is waiting for them. Who are we to force them to keep living when sparing that life forcefully may cause the person short term suffering, or a lifetime of constant medical treatment to address issues created by the original treatment?

Maybe we should honor the right for people to decide that if they have a terminal illness, they should be allowed to die from it if they want to. Because he is only 13 and can't educate himself is indeed a quandry.

Regardless what our heart tells us about "his" rights, his parents believe and more importantly he believes this treatment will kill him. It matters not that his parents may have influenced this belief. The bigger issue is that if he believes this, chances are he will be right. The power of belief is a major factor here.

I just can't see what good it would do to force this.

If he dies, then their beliefs will also sustain them. I think it's OK sometimes to admit that there is nothing that can be done to change a belief system.

What is wrong with dying really?
Click to expand...

Bold mine.

Is there anything that would substantiate this, any studies, anything?

Nothing is wrong with dying, per se, although I think the average person would probably like to live as long as possible with a good quality of life. 95% chance this boy could have that long quality of life after going through what would be admittedly a terrible time with the treatment. I just hate to see a kid that young go on hospice if there is a reliable treatment. If he had a form of cancer that was less treatable, I'd say it'd be more within his parents' rights to just let him live out what time he had left in peace, but with it so highly treatable, gee.
 
There are numerous studies on the power of belief and the results of both positive and negative manifestations of one's belief system.

Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard has published much information. All you have to do is Google it and you will find information on it.

http://www.mbmi.org/about/default.asp

http://www.oup.com.au/titles/academic/psychology/9780198530107

For me it is common sense. If the law of attraction can work in the positive, it also works in the negative.

Manifesting what we believe is how we create our reality.
 
southcitymom said:
It is, however, unreasonable to REQUIRE a person to take poison into his body - or to REQUIRE that a parent approve of treating their child with poison.

Sure, these days we say chemo is the best option for most if not all cancers. I wonder if in the future, we will look at chemo to treat cancer in the same way as we now look at leeches and/or bloodletting to treat disease - inventive, to be sure, but barbaric and perhaps just a little insane...

I have nothing against chemo. I may well avail myself of it in the future should the need ever present. But to be FORCED to do that - to be FORCED to give it to my child....NO WAY!
Click to expand...

Such a good point. Mr. Zig was diagnosed with Lupus in the late 70's and back then they decided that radiation treatment would be good. WRONG! They don't do that anymore.

Consequently, Mr. Zig has been plagued with massive skin cancer. His body has been cut and scarred from the removal of masses of skin. It is life threatening for him these days.

We may very well look back and wonder how in the world we thought poisoning the body and killing the immune system was such a great idea.

I still think Dr. Lorraine Day, who is an immune system specialist and used to work with AIDS patients, has a lot to offer since she herself got cancer and refused treatment. She was refused surgical help from doctors because she would not do chemo and radiation.

She cured the cancer herself. www.drday.com

I am not saying this works for everyone, but it worked for her. I just think her approach to supporting the immune system at all cost is worth a look.

Many cancer centers are trying to combine the medical treatment with mind, body work and nutrition. We are moving in the right direction.

Granted, I don't like the thought of a boy dying but I don't like the loss of a nation of people's liberty over it either.
 
Trino said:
But, don't you sometimes force your child to do things that they don't want to do but which are in their best interests? It seems that with a 90-95% chance of recovery that chemo would be in the child's interest.

You say, "No way." If the court ruled you had to do so, how far would you go?
Click to expand...

Yes, as a parent you often force a child to do what they don't want to when you think it is in the child's best interest! That's your right and choice and responsibility as a parent. But in the case, the parents agree with the child. The Court has taken away the parents rights, choices and responsibilities in this matter.

I understand that the Western medical community says this cancer has a high success rate of going away with chemo. But I believe the family has every right in the world to treat or not treat this cancer as they see fit and in keeping with their beliefs and their faith.

I don't know how far I would go Trino. I can't be sure, of course, but I would probably give the chemo a go so I don't know that I would ever find myself in this family's particular predicament.

If I found myself in a situation where the US or state government was trying to force me to do something I disagreed with (as regards a personal and private matter), I would certainly consider moving my family to Ireland, where my husband and sons have citizenship. But I'd have to weigh out everything.

The mother is in the case is in a hell of a position. If she disobeys the Court order and her son dies, she may well be prosecuted. She might even be prosecuted before that. I just HATE that this family is being put in this position - being forced to follow what the drs have to say and not their own personal beliefs.

And then - what if the child refuses? Are they going to restrain him, give him anesthesia and force the chemo on him that way? I'd imagine a 13 year old farm boy could make things quite difficult if he so chose. And then - are the parents in trouble if the boy puts up a fight??
 
http://www.startribune.com/local/45...kD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUycaEacyU

NOTE: When tested by his teacher, Daniel could not identify the word "THE." Daniel cannot read. While there are many students with IEP's for different reasons, Daniel's IEP must indicate he's much more in need of help than most students with IEP's. How can he make an intelligent decision about life if he cannot read or understand a document he signed?

Why does Daniel think he's a medicine man? His mother told him so...

Also, note: The man who runs the Nemenhah Band, to which the Hausers became members by paying a fee, has been convicted of grand theft and theft by deception at least twice. Another member of the group used a state loophole that allows for Native Americans to sell peyote.
 
The document Daniel signed was read to him. Are we actually suggesting that because he cannot read it, he cannot understand it? Not being able to read does not mean you are a person who cannot express your thoughts and beliefs and desires. Intelligent decisions can and are made by people who cannot read and, IMHO, it's insulting to suggest otherwise.

As far as Nemenhah - I'm sure we could find all sorts of things about it we find wrong or questionable, but I could do the same thing with Christianity, Islam and Buddhism (just to name a few more accepted modes of spirituality).
 
southcitymom said:
The document Daniel signed was read to him. Are we actually suggesting that because he cannot read it, he cannot understand it? Not being able to read does not mean you are a person who cannot express your thoughts and beliefs and desires. Intelligent decisions can and are made by people who cannot read and, IMHO, it's insulting to suggest otherwise.

As far as Nemenhah - I'm sure we could find all sorts of things about it we find wrong or questionable, but I could do the same thing with Christianity, Islam and Buddhism (just to name a few more accepted modes of spirituality).
Click to expand...


If the document was read to him as written by the courts, then I doubt he could understand it. I agree that being illiterate does not mean you cannot make decisions. However, most of the people who I have known who are functionally illiterate are so because of the lack of opportunity or having a disability that was unnoticed until they were out of school. Since this child has an IEP and has not learned to read, how much of that is because he *cannot* learn to read? This would signal a pervasive developmental disorder of some sort that is stopping him from learning to read. This same type of disorder could also influence his ability to understand words in whatever form. Even if he can understand, how much of what he is thinking comes from his parents?

Someday we will have specialized treatments for cancer. Even now, scientists are working on DNA typing for different kinds of cancers to find the medicine that works best to kill them so doctors are not on the "chemo crap shoot" of throwing everything at a cancer to see what works. These will be genetically based treatments that will certainly improve the life expectancy of the patient, if not cure them. I am hoping that through this process, we are able to quash cancer to the point that it becomes no more than an annoyance, like the flu (OK, maybe not a good example right now) or more like a chronic condition you live with like diabetes.

I have seen studies that show that prayer seems to help people recover. I think it has more to do with giving the person a hopeful outlook than actually an answer from God. I mean, think about it. If you pray that your three year old with leukemia gets well and she dies, what does that say about prayer? That it doesn't work? Or that "God wanted her for heaven." Either way, whether she lives or dies, prayer is seen as the answer. A true study, for me, would show people who are being prayed for survive more than those who are not prayed for -- without the patient knowing they are or are not being prayed for. Anything else is about patient attitude and acceptance.

My faith lies in medicine and science. The parents in this case are being neglectful. Plain and simple.
 
I definitely think the what the mind thinks or concentrates on can have an impact on the body, but I don't know if I see anything that says if you think you're going to die you're going to die. I believe in the relaxation response but just don't think if this boy gets chemo his thoughts will kill him. I haven't taken the time to read those websites thoroughly. I'm going to go over this Dr. Day's website also, but I don't think if someone told me I had cancer that I could just "believe" in an alternative treatment and be confident in getting well. I'd have no problem in a combination of alternative and conventional, but I'd feel uncomfortable with just alternative unless conventional medicine gave me no chance to live.

I'd be interested to know if he has been schooled at all and still hasn't been able to learn to read or what. If he's had a program tailored to his learning disability and still hasn't learned to read, that seems kind of an indicator to me that's less amenable to treatment than "just" a learning disability.
 
HesterMofet said:
If the document was read to him as written by the courts, then I doubt he could understand it. I agree that being illiterate does not mean you cannot make decisions. However, most of the people who I have known who are functionally illiterate are so because of the lack of opportunity or having a disability that was unnoticed until they were out of school. Since this child has an IEP and has not learned to read, how much of that is because he *cannot* learn to read? This would signal a pervasive developmental disorder of some sort that is stopping him from learning to read. This same type of disorder could also influence his ability to understand words in whatever form. Even if he can understand, how much of what he is thinking comes from his parents?
Click to expand...

Snipped...

I find it very interesting that Daniel was home-schooled. Usually, home-schooled children test above their peers in public schools.
 
txsvicki said:
OMG, what kind of people would practically let a child that can't even read die without a chance? If he has a severe learning disability, then he probably also has behavior problems and not enough sense to be able to calculate past today and how he feels right this second. My grandson took his orthodontic apparatus out, also disabled, and can't see past his discomfort into the future with a handsome attractive smile. Also, why the heck is a thirteen year old child not able to read at all? Is that also his choice to not get help there? Medicine Man my rear end. How bogus. If someone told me that my house had a small gas leak and if I stayed there another year or so I'd have a 95% chance of dying, but 95% chance of living if I got out now, I don't think there's any question of the decision I'd make.
Click to expand...

There are so many reasons that can result in an inability to read! Maybe he is of normal intelligence and has severe dyslexia? Maybe his intelligence is normal but his vision is not?

Medicine man may be a joke to many in USA, but there are many to whom it holds a deeply spiritual and powerful
meaning. I understand what you're saying, but the way you said it might be very offensive to lots of people.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Members online

... and 103 more.
Total: 470 (members: 104, guests: 366)

Online statistics

Members online
104
Guests online
366
Total visitors
470
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
627,570
Messages
18,548,202
Members
241,345
Latest member
mrbutter
Back
Top