Jury Instructions and Reasonable Doubt

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  • #481
LOL, I think I am the only one here that understands what you are saying.
I urge everyone to clear your minds as to what you think i being said and re read the posts.

Nope - I got it too!

My puzzle of the day has been trying to work out how premeditation can occur during the act of killing, as has been suggested elsewhere on the thread! I'm really struggling with that concept.
 
  • #482
This reminds me of the felony murder debate. Some people were referring to her charge as felony murder because she was charged with murder and it is in fact a felony. but she was not charged with Felony Murder which is a separate charge. but the thread went around and around as to whether she had been charged felony murder but people were not understanding the term felony murder is different than being charged with murder 1 (a) 1, even though it is a felony LOL.

Point is people were going around and around but not truly hearing what each other was actually saying but arguing what they thought each other was saying. 2 very interesting debates.
 
  • #483
OK...honestly trying to understand here...

You can't really mean that at least one item of EVIDENCEhas to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, because evidence doesn't get proved...evidence is what you USE to prove FACTS. So do you mean that the jury must find, from the totality of whatever evidence is presented, at least one FACT proved beyond a reasonable doubt that supports each ELEMENT of the crime?

In other words, are you saying, for example, that if the jury has to find premeditation as one element of one count, they have to find beyond a reasonable doubt that at least one fact exists in support of that element? If so, that makes a lot more sense than what we've been talking about up until now.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Element is the word I was searching for. So everyone, in your mind insert 'element' in my previous posts where appropriate and they'll make a lot more sense. ;)

(You don't think I'm going to go back and edit ALL of them, do you??)
 
  • #484
LOL, I think I am the only one here that understands what you are saying.
I urge everyone to clear your minds as to what you think i being said and re read the posts.

Wish you'd have explained it using very little words when I asked Wudge to do so, what? A week ago? lol

ETA: I asked on the 18th: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3969895&postcount=88"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Jury Instructions and Reasonable Doubt[/ame]
 
  • #485
Evidence used to place Caylee's body in the Woods early on.
1. Caylee last seen by anyone 7/15 or 7/16
2. No evidence of anyone other than maybe Kronk within 50 feet of where the body was found prior to her actual recovery,
3. Evidence of dereliction of duty by the police in woods search after Kronk calls
3. Kronk did not know the Anthony's and had at least some reason to be in the area due to his job
4. Evidence that the body was there for about 4-6 months due to roots growing thru the body and possibly other entimological evidence
5. Evidence that the body was there for some months due to level of bone deteriation, dispersion of Caylee’s bones , muck on the bones, showing body at least there during floods will be given
6. Items from family home statistically matched to items from Anthony home, plastic bags, sticker showing unlikelihood someone buried her at a later date after KC was arrested and home less accessible (protestors, police, webcam)
7 Missing pooh blanket from home with body (when did CA claim she noticed?)
9. Evidence about depression in earth being formed under the body
What evidence would you need to feel comfortable that it proves length of time in the woods?
 
  • #486
Nope - I got it too!

My puzzle of the day has been trying to work out how premeditation can occur during the act of killing, as has been suggested elsewhere on the thread! I'm really struggling with that concept.

It can occur between deciding to use duct tape and going to fetch it. It can occur between the first and second strip or any subsequent strip. It can occur during the time that elapses during which, if removed, death would not have ensued.

Although the knee-jerk, automatic inference causes one to picture someone actually formulating a plan, Florida law doesn't require a long, drawn out process. If you pick up a gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger, that's long enough.
 
  • #487
Cecybeans, I am responding to your post a second time, because two things stood out to me, and I wanted to address them separately.

I do agree that many individual items of inculpatory evidence that prosecutors ask lay jurors to use to support a verdict of "guilty" might well not represent a level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that equals or exceeds 99%. However, if 99% is an appropriate benchmark for evidence proving a level of certainty, jurors cannot add an item of inculpatory evidence with a 97% certainty rating to another item of inculpatory evidence with a 90% certainty rating and claim that these two items of evidence hurdle the established benchmark of 99%. You can not add evidence coefficients.

The totality of evidence phrase is widely misunderstood. If, as in the above example, the level of certainty benchmark were to be set at 99%, then the only inculpatory evidence that can go into a totality of evidence bucket are individual items of evidence that possess a certainty rating of 99% or better. As such and again drawing from the above example, neither the 97% item of inculpatory evidence nor the 90% item of inculpatory could be placed in a totality of evidence bucket that could be used to support a verdict of "guilty".

I brought this forward as some of the construing and misunderstanding began at approximately this post.
 
  • #488
It can occur between deciding to use duct tape and going to fetch it. It can occur between the first and second strip or any subsequent strip. It can occur during the time that elapses during which, if removed, death would not have ensued.

Although the knee-jerk, automatic inference causes one to picture someone actually formulating a plan, Florida law doesn't require a long, drawn out process. If you pick up a gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger, that's long enough.

Premeditation is an intent formed before committing an act of murder, and even though that intent may take only a very short time to form, there has to be sufficient time in which to reflect on the intention prior to the act. It involves forethought, however brief. An awareness or continued resolve to perform the act of murder whilst carrying it out is proof of the degree of intent but it's not premeditation.
 
  • #489
OK...honestly trying to understand here...

You can't really mean that at least one item of EVIDENCEhas to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, because evidence doesn't get proved...evidence is what you USE to prove FACTS. So do you mean that the jury must find, from the totality of whatever evidence is presented, at least one FACT proved beyond a reasonable doubt that supports each ELEMENT of the crime?

In other words, are you saying, for example, that if the jury has to find premeditation as one element of one count, they have to find beyond a reasonable doubt that at least one fact exists in support of that element? If so, that makes a lot more sense than what we've been talking about up until now.

The jury will decide what evidence, if any, presented at trial represents a fact proved beyond a reasonal doubt. The trial judge will instruct the jury that they are the sole finders-of-fact. Certainly, both sides can agree to stipulate something as fact during the course of a trial, however, the jury usually determines the large measure of what evidence is fact for the purpose of deciding "guilty" or "not guilty".

As regards the first-degree murder charge against Casey, the judge will instruct the jury that, for any of the charges, the People must prove beyond a reasonable doubt every essential element of that charge. There is no direct evidence that we know of in this case, which means that the proof for each essential element of murder one must necessarily come via an inferred conclusion, and -- as we just went through -- any facts the jury relies on to support an inferred conclusion of "guilty" must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

For example, as regards the murder one charge, I expect the judge to instuct the jury that intent (willful), premeditation (planning, perhaps reflection), deliberation (consideration or perhaps reflection) and malice (malice aforethought or implied malice) must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Please note that I do not believe Florida's model jury instruction for murder one will be copied and pasted into the final jury instructions. Florida's standard jury instruction was discussed on another thread, and my rememberance is that Florida's standard instruction did not specifically state intent (willful) or malice (malice aforethought or implied malice) as a requirement (essential element). Florida might sweep intent and malice under premeditation, -- diiferent states use different terms for these four basic elements. I expect the trial judge will greatly clarify each term that Florida currently says are essential elements of murder one.

Be that as it may, whatever they might eventually instruct the jury to be an essential element of murder one must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
  • #490
Nope - I got it too!

My puzzle of the day has been trying to work out how premeditation can occur during the act of killing, as has been suggested elsewhere on the thread! I'm really struggling with that concept.
example
I just raped someone after tieing them up at knifepoint.
Ok, I'm satisfied now and bored. But oh, what to do about this witness?
I will leave them tied to the bed (in some small cabin I broke into earlier) and just leave.
I will have to duct tape the mouth though so they don't get help too soon from a neighbor
Oh, but what if the witness remembers my car? My plates? My white weird beard, and I get pegged for this?
I think I better put another load of duct tape on their face, maybe just one or two more layers (evil laugh) before I leave
 
  • #491
  • #492
Nope - I got it too!

My puzzle of the day has been trying to work out how premeditation can occur during the act of killing, as has been suggested elsewhere on the thread! I'm really struggling with that concept.

Let's say KC wanted Caylee to just shut up.She is angry and sick of dealing with her and dealing with Cindy.She gets the duct tape and pulls a piece off,stradles Caylee with a knee on each of Caylee's arms and puts it over Caylee's mouth. Caylee continues to struggle and KC rips off another piece and puts it over her nose."That'll shut her up....for good,she thinks".A third piece goes on to make sure it sticks well.KC didn't start out to kill,but formed her plan as she was putting the tape on,in the act.
Of course ,then we have the minutes that went by as Caylee was dying and KC chose to leave the tape in place.
 
  • #493
Premeditation is an intent formed before committing an act of murder, and even though that intent may take only a very short time to form, there has to be sufficient time in which to reflect on the intention prior to the act. It involves forethought, however brief. An awareness or continued resolve to perform the act of murder whilst carrying it out is proof of the degree of intent but it's not premeditation.

Killing with premeditation is killing after consciously deciding to do so under Florida law. That decision was made before reaching for the duct tape, even if it was close at hand; before applying the 2nd strip, etc.
 
  • #494
example
I just raped someone after tieing them up at knifepoint.
Ok, I'm satisfied now and bored. But oh, what to do about this witness?
I will leave them tied to the bed (in some small cabin I broke into earlier) and just leave.
I will have to duct tape the mouth though so they don't get help too soon from a neighbor
Oh, but what if the witness remembers my car? My plates? My white weird beard, and I get pegged for this?
I think I better put another load of duct tape on their face, maybe just one or two more layers (evil laugh) before I leave

In your example, the acts that were performed before the extra layers of duct tape were applied are irrelevant to the issue of premeditation because up to that point there was no intent to kill. The premeditation occurred when the decision was made to apply the 2nd and subsequent layers of duct tape, since that's when the intent to kill was formed. The intent no doubt persisted through layers 3/4/5 etc. but that continuation of prior intent is not premeditation.
 
  • #495
LOL, I think I am the only one here that understands what you are saying.
I urge everyone to clear your minds as to what you think i being said and re read the posts.

God bless you.

I do think that Marspiter understands now. It was his post that I first referred to earlier today, and the majority of my posts today were follow-ups on our discussion that was built off of the post of his that I referred too. I do sense that others might have gained at least a little better understanding, but maybe I'm wrong.

Unless they been through a murder trial, jurors are not likely to appreciate how lengthy, comprehensive, complex and confusing the jury instructions in a murder trial (murder one, murder two, manslaughter) can be. Most jurors get a crash course in many issues, concepts and legal terms that can be (and usually are) very, very confusing.
 
  • #496
It can occur between deciding to use duct tape and going to fetch it. It can occur between the first and second strip or any subsequent strip. It can occur during the time that elapses during which, if removed, death would not have ensued.

Although the knee-jerk, automatic inference causes one to picture someone actually formulating a plan, Florida law doesn't require a long, drawn out process. If you pick up a gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger, that's long enough.

This was an issue in the Harvey Milk murder trial. The killer (whose name I have forgotten). Pursued Milk, shooting. Stopped, and RE-LOADED. The defense atty got away with convincing the jury that despite the reload, there was no reflection, thus no pre-med.

The killer got of using the "twinkie defense," IIRC.

Nasty case, nasty trial.
 
  • #497
Nope - I got it too!

My puzzle of the day has been trying to work out how premeditation can occur during the act of killing, as has been suggested elsewhere on the thread! I'm really struggling with that concept.
An oversimplified explanation is to think of it like this. If you can stop what you are doing , but don't and make the conscious decision to kill.. then it can be premeditated.
So if you are choking someone and you realize they are dying and continue to choke them, it could be premeditated during the murder. Maybe you didn't start out to kill them, but at some point you decided you were going to.
If you look across the room and think i am going to kill her right now and then do, it could be premeditated.

Similar thing I ran into with self defense. I know someone that got attacked by another dude. The guy punched my friend and my friend jerked back but did not fall. He righted himself and moved forward to hit the guy back. The minute he moved forward to hit the guy back, it was no longer self defense because he had to move towards the attacker.

So in the matter of a split second and body positioning it went from self defense to assault and he was charged with it.
 
  • #498
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3957131&postcount=913"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - "G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?[/ame]

This is how I qualify a killer for the intent of premeditation.
 
  • #499
God bless you.

I do think that Marspiter understands now. It was his post that I first referred to earlier today, and the majority of my posts today were follow-ups on our discussion that was built off of the post of his that I referred too. I do sense that others might have gained at least a little better understanding, but maybe I'm wrong.

Unless they been through a murder trial, jurors are not likely to appreciate how lengthy, comprehensive, complex and confusing the jury instructions in a murder trial (murder one, murder two, manslaughter) can be. Most jurors get a crash course in many issues, concepts and legal terms that can be (and usually are) very, very confusing.
Maybe because I am not a legal professional I have to take more time to fully understand all your posts. It causes me to read more slowly and carefully as to understand exactly what you are saying. I have posted with you long enough to know your posting style and so I have an advantage i think. You choose your words very carefully and they carry a very literal meaning in most cases. Words cannot be exchanged for other words in your posts and so I have learned to read exactly what you write.

okay back to doubt ..reasonable or unreasonable?
 
  • #500
Premeditation is an intent formed before committing an act of murder, and even though that intent may take only a very short time to form, there has to be sufficient time in which to reflect on the intention prior to the act. It involves forethought, however brief. An awareness or continued resolve to perform the act of murder whilst carrying it out is proof of the degree of intent but it's not premeditation.

Very nice.

(salute)

[Some states hold premediatation to be planning. Other states hold premeditation to be both planning and deliberation or planning and consideration. It will be interesting to hear the judge in this case explain what essential elements of murder one Florida currently holds to be premeditation].
 
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