KC's "Brain Development"

[I Din Doot]

Judge Strickland ordered them first thing to see if she was mentally ill/insane probably because she lied. He then sealed them and, I believe, made the famous statement, "Ms. Anthony and the truth are strangers." Unless they plan on using them in court I think the remain sealed. jmo

That is exactly what I remember.

 

[wenwe4]

Judge Strickland ordered them first thing to see if she was mentally ill/insane probably because she lied. He then sealed them and, I believe, made the famous statement, "Ms. Anthony and the truth are strangers." Unless they plan on using them in court I think the remain sealed. jmo

His statement always made me think she purposely answered the way she thought she should . . . or made pretty patterns on the answer sheet with filling in random ovals.

If she weren't truthful in her answers on a psych eval . . . (also typical of certain personality d/o's), it would invalidate the data. I don't think KC's ego would allow her to truthfully answer psych eval questons, too many places for her to leak out her "issues" for someone to see. I believe she must keep up appearances - no matter the cost. I think she will attempt to manipulate the situation by looking for what she thinks others want to hear (ie: she can get tickets for friends & family @ Universal) and those few moments of adoration make up for the "let down" when she tells them everything fell through. Of course, they will still praise her because she attempted to go out of her way to help them - even if it didn't turn out in the end. KC would perceive that as an opportunity to fill her cup of having others adore and admire her, even if it is superficial. Nothing is so sweet to dear Ms. KC (IMO).

 

[Kat]

In my mind, and I could be wrong, lord knows I've been very wrong before, but a personality disorder such as the one that KC clearly exhibits in what we've seen of her so far (cluster B for sure, unsure of exact diagnosis) and TLE are two very distinct and seperate things and can coexsist.

TLE is an organic disease in my mind, a personality disorder is a mental disorder that can be cured if the sufferer wishes to make changes for themselves by relearning coping skills, but the sufferer has to do all the work and has to really want to change. For example: a patient with NPD or ASPD or Borderline PD or etc... can be diagnosed with cancer, epilepsy...any variety of organic diseases. One is not contigent on the other.

Reading this thread that is what I thinking of to be honest. If KC tested as not having any personality disorder whatsoever you'd have to pick me up off the floor. But I do believe that given the statement that she doesn't suffer from a mental illness they are referring to the fact that she didn't show testing positive for a mental illness on the Axis I such as schizophrenia or bipolar for example. Those can be managed with meds and therapy. Axis II illnesses aren't impacted by meds as much (if the suffererer of say a cluster B diagnosis has mood disorder such as depression then the depression can be treated with meds...etc) and require a willingness to change and go through therapy to get relief of symptoms.

Sorry to ramble. I have absolutely no training in psychology. But that is how I have made sense of it so far given that we have a family member with a cluster B diagnosis.

JMHO.

 

[LambChop]

His statement always made me think she purposely answered the way she thought she should . . . or made pretty patterns on the answer sheet with filling in random ovals.

If she weren't truthful in her answers on a psych eval . . . (also typical of certain personality d/o's), it would invalidate the data. I don't think KC's ego would allow her to truthfully answer psych eval questons, too many places for her to leak out her "issues" for someone to see. I believe she must keep up appearances - no matter the cost. I think she will attempt to manipulate the situation by looking for what she thinks others want to hear (ie: she can get tickets for friends & family @ Universal) and those few moments of adoration make up for the "let down" when she tells them everything fell through. Of course, they will still praise her because she attempted to go out of her way to help them - even if it didn't turn out in the end. KC would perceive that as an opportunity to fill her cup of having others adore and admire her, even if it is superficial. Nothing is so sweet to dear Ms. KC (IMO).

One of the doctors who examined KC when she was first arrested was Dr. Danzinger. That's right. The one and only. Bet he has her number now. My guess is JB did not know what was in the orginial report from 2008 and that is why during the deposition of Dr. Danzinger something came out that JB did not want released at trial and that is why the doctors were withdrawn. jmo

 

[badhorsie]

Interesting, readable article on brain scans and psychopathy here

 

[Kat]

badhorsie do you think that they will try to argue the differences in brain scans as a mitigating circumstance?

Has that been done before? I haven't seen it argued that a personality disorder and the changes in the brain could be a factor in a trial. I could have very well missed that though, to be honest I haven't kept up on that.

I'm wondering if they aren't going to go with a mitigating circumstance of another more documented disease of the brain that has a lot of research behind it?

Just curious. Very interested to see how defense uses this.

 

[ZsaZsa]

badhorsie do you think that they will try to argue the differences in brain scans as a mitigating circumstance?

Has that been done before? I haven't seen it argued that a personality disorder and the changes in the brain could be a factor in a trial. I could have very well missed that though, to be honest I haven't kept up on that.

I'm wondering if they aren't going to go with a mitigating circumstance of another more documented disease of the brain that has a lot of research behind it?

Just curious. Very interested to see how defense uses this.

Does the DT have any experts in that field on their witness list?

 

[Melanie]

Cindy blamed it on the school counselor and claimed Casey was only 1/2 a credit shy of graduation. THAT is BS. The school could have easily found a way to quickly make up a half a credit. She could shuffle papers in the front office and make up 1/2 a credit, if that was the only problem. And why wouldn't she have told them if it was such a minor amount of credits? They could have easily worked that out. NOPE. It was more than just a half a credit. The high schools really want their graduation percentage to be high. IF there is a way to get one more to graduate they will do so. They would never allow someone to add to their failure rate over a half a credit. So her problems were bigger than that. She could have gone to summer school for one semester and gotten her diploma if that were the case. Why didn't she do that if she was 'so close' to graduation?

Besides, most high schools will allow a student to 'walk' the stage and receive an empty envelope if they really only need a credit or two. My daughters 2 friends both did that after having Senior Brain Freeze and flunking Senior English.

Casey is lying once again. She fell fall short from graduating or she would have made it up at the junior college long ago. imoo

You got it! 1/2 credit my arss. What's 1/2 a credit? I'm older by 20 years, but I recall courses were 1-3 credits (ie, 1 credit if you took a sewing class, to 3 if you took advanced english). There were never no 1/2 credits. Why didn't she go to summer school and make up that piddly 1/2 credit? And what's all this mess about getting a GED? You want to do ALL that work for a measly 1/2 credit. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

I bet 1/2 = 12. What about progress reports - those are sent out on a quarterly basis. I never believed any of that story and still don't.

We're lucky enough now to be able to follow our sons progress on line, to the point I know what his assignments are for the day. The internet can be a beautiful thing!

MOO

Mel

 

[Whisperer]

Do we have Dr Danzinger's report or transcript?

 

[elementary]

badhorsie do you think that they will try to argue the differences in brain scans as a mitigating circumstance?

Has that been done before? I haven't seen it argued that a personality disorder and the changes in the brain could be a factor in a trial. I could have very well missed that though, to be honest I haven't kept up on that.

I'm wondering if they aren't going to go with a mitigating circumstance of another more documented disease of the brain that has a lot of research behind it?

Just curious. Very interested to see how defense uses this.

I'd bet my last dollar there never was a brain scan. It would be discovery then and the prosecution would have access to it, would they not?

 

[Jen38]

Casey from all accountss seemed quite socialable. I though anyone affected by asperger's syndrome's is anti-social.

Not necessarily...my daughter has Asperger's (albeit a mild form), and she tries very hard to be social. Where she struggles is reading non-verbal cues from others and reacting appropriately, e.g. giving people their space.
I don't see autism in KC, high functioning or otherwise. Possibly OCD, and dissociative...but not to the level of autism. She very much interacted with her environment and obviously has no problem with verbal skills. I believe she knows very well the difference between right and wrong. She just doesn't care IMO.
I do know that if the DT tries the autism theory, as the mother of two children on the spectrum, I will be :banghead::banghead::banghead: It greatly concerns me that this might be tried out as some kind of 'viable' defense...as if those of us who advocate for our kids need one more stigma to fight against.

 

[gngr~snap]

Casey from all accountss seemed quite socialable. I though anyone affected by asperger's syndrome's is anti-social.

I said LA appears to have asperger's
It has levels as well. His laughing about Caylee being dead... the smell is a bell ringer for me. Highly inappropriate at the time but he did it anyway cause he didn't know better

ICA with the constantly changing friends and being somewhat detached / jealous of a man because he loved her daughter could be either ,but because she was "social"
she appears more in the realm of high functioning autism.

 

[TxLady2]

There's nothing wrong with Casey's brain, it's her conscience that is lacking. She has a hard time feeling love for anyone except herself, unless it's to her advantage, and then she's probably faking it.

 

[elementary]

Not necessarily...my daughter has Asperger's (albeit a mild form), and she tries very hard to be social. Where she struggles is reading non-verbal cues from others and reacting appropriately, e.g. giving people their space.
I don't see autism in KC, high functioning or otherwise. Possibly OCD, and dissociative...but not to the level of autism. She very much interacted with her environment and obviously has no problem with verbal skills. I believe she knows very well the difference between right and wrong. She just doesn't care IMO.
I do know that if the DT tries the autism theory, as the mother of two children on the spectrum, I will be :banghead::banghead::banghead: It greatly concerns me that this might be tried out as some kind of 'viable' defense...as if those of us who advocate for our kids need one more stigma to fight against.

Agreed. Besides what does Asperger's have to do with murder anyway? I'd like to know if they are significantly correlated (they aren't). Any organic problem the defence suggests the perp may have does not explain her lack of conscience and empathy, her amoral and immoral behaviour, her pathological lying.

 

[nursebeeme]

her "brain development" (or lack of it) will only play in mitigation... AFTER the jury and world has seen all the other evidence against her.

weight of her brain development as a mitigator=like a feather imhoo

 

[Just Jayla]

I just want to add something about brain development. It has been proven that the brain is not fully developed at the age of 20 and it takes a few more years to do that. Meaning that teenagers and young adults DO NOT consider the ramifications of their actions. An e.g. of that is a young man who went to jail for some 15 years for killing his girlfriend's father (who she said was sexually abusing her - which was untrue). The young man, who is now a lawyer, said he NEVER once considered the ramifications when he waited for the father outside of his house and shot him dead. I think that is extremely important. Anyone who has children will understand that when they have to tell a teenager over and over again, think about what you are doing. And they never seem to. Having said all that, I think she is a sociopath and as this trial has gotten underway and I have watched practically evertything, I believe in my heart that Cindy and George have had a monumental lapse in their parenting to the point of the detriment of KC. E.g. letting her steal upwards of 3000 a month starting (that I know of) in January 2008, for two months and then several hundred for months after. Letting her do this, but be home on time with the baby. LEtting her lie about going to work, but be home on time with the baby. We all know she was staying atj Ricardo's some five days a week for a few months starting in Feb. 2008. Cindy lied about this. I believe Ricardo. So stay out five nights a week, rob me blind, lie about work, BUT TAKE GOOD CARE OF THE BABY. This in no way excuses the crime. She is a sociopath and I believe the time to fix that is over. But this is not a death penalty case. It is a lwop case., imo. And if she were to get off, I am going to say, there is a possibility she could do it again, if she felt she needed to and got awy with this. But I believe wholeheartedly that Cindy bears responsibility for this coming to pass. Children are not born knowing the right thing. They are taught it and she was allowed to lie, steal, to an incredible magnitude and leave havoc in her way. No one reined her in. It is extremely sad on all fronts. I cannot imagine how George and Cindy are going to react to being accused of everything under the sun. They are gong to be. No doubt. But it appears that they are denying sexual abuse. So they are not willing to go that far for her. Things could change dramatically when George gets up there on the stand.

I agree with much of what you write with a big exception-KC planned on killing her parents, or at least CA, IMO. This potentially makes her a cold, calculated-and (maybe) serial-killer.
The state I am in and the cultural beliefs of the majority in my state and community (which I think is a very important distinction, each village has its own thought and of course, each individual can vary and there are those in my state opposed to death penalty) are such that many of us wanted Lee Boyd Malvo to die for what he did-particularly to a 13 year old Maryland boy-but that was undone by the Supreme Court.
It is what it is, but the feeling remains that there are like minded communities throughout this country that feel that the death penalty is merited for someone who premeditates the murder of, or murders in the course of abuse, children-even when the offenders themselves are young.

 

[allycat1208]

I said LA appears to have asperger's
It has levels as well. His laughing about Caylee being dead... the smell is a bell ringer for me. Highly inappropriate at the time but he did it anyway cause he didn't know better

ICA with the constantly changing friends and being somewhat detached / jealous of a man because he loved her daughter could be either ,but because she was "social"
she appears more in the realm of high functioning autism.

I'm sorry about that. I noticed after rereading it that I misread what you wrote.

Who is It? Did you write It has levels as well? I thought Lee was laughing during deposition because he was just nervous, but who knows.

 

[lemon]

Unless they have evidence (some type of scans) of actual organic brain abnormality/damage... I don't believe it for a second.

Even if they did have such scans, could KC falling on her face in the elevator that one time be ruled out as the source of any brain damage? I don't expect anyone to have the answer; just something to consider

 

[wonders]

Narcissists require (to survive) what is called "narcissistic feed". It's like food or oxygen to us.

Narcissistic feed is people adoring them, people telling them how wonderful they are, so it is all about ME, ME, ME. The anger they feel is against someone who has wronged them(or the perceive to have harmed them), they don't have feelings about other people or their hardships or problems.

They are also totally paranoid & think everyone thinks like them & is out to get them.

Any tears they shed, unless it is for themselves, is a learned behavior. Narc's can learn to act like "normal" people from observing when it is the right time to show this or that emotion, but it's all fake.

Deep down, narcissists actually loathe themselves & they need outside gratification to keep convincing themselves how wonderful they are. They can also have multiple personalities & can actually blame one of the other personalities for the wrong doing.

It is a total fantasy world that they live in, in their mind.

They will discard anyone who stops giving them that narcissistic feed, like yesterdays trash.

You see how ICA has turned on her parents? That is because they are not giving her the narc. feed.

As for Caley, she got all the attention from ICA's parents, she took over the spotlight & my guess is ICA could not stand it, she wanted it back.

She see's herself as a celebrity now & can't understand why her parents & everyone else does not.

I will also tell you this, she is LOVING being in court. Look at all this attention just for HER.

She does not believe she will be found guilty, as narcissists feel they are above the law, can rationalize any wrong they have done & they believe that everyone else thinks like they do.

Don't try to analyze their mind, it's like trying to figure out a totally insane person.

That is basically what we are dealing with.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Thank you kinsey for answering.
Let me see if I have this right. They can feel all the emotions that we feel for themselves but not for others?

 

[Quiche]

There's nothing wrong with Casey's brain, it's her conscience that is lacking. She has a hard time feeling love for anyone except herself, unless it's to her advantage, and then she's probably faking it.

Exactly, TL-- but the conscience is a function of the brain as well. So, if she has frontal lobe abnormality, is this a mitigating, or an aggravating factor? Do we know if she's killed pets, birds, or other creatures? Because these are also the marks of a serial killer...

The articles I've read today clearly indicate highly functioning, well adjusted people can have a frontal lobe abnormality. So imo, the tests alone mean nothing, but the history of behavior has be considered. Will the truth be told there? Is it even possible to know?

idk