Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[SapphireSteel]

I'm tired of people discounting this because they don't want to believe it, because they think children just couldn't do something like that, because their 9-year-old would never do it, because he was just to weak to cause that kind of injury, because he was so frail, and so nice, and so normal, and whatever...(I've heard it all!)


.

I was not there. You were not there. No one knows who killed JBR.

In view of this, all any of us have is theories.

I have respected your right to express theories, no matter how "tired" I may be by them.


:moo:

 

[txsvicki]

Burke's annoyed reply to the doctor about knowing what happened is the most telling that he thought a male did it. A man would "take out" a knife once down in the basement or grab a hammer to purposely kill. He knew that jonbenet had purposely been killed and somehow knew there could be a head injury.

 

[midwest mama]

:newhere: If "fence sitting" was a paid job, I'd have quite a vacation fund set aside. Since the murder of JB, this case has weighed heavily on my heart and mind. I am a Newbie on this Forum, and now look forward to adding my opinions on the JB case. I will also post on the thread regarding Kolar's book, since it was the catalyst for me to join WS.

My Dad was a terrific amateur "whodunit" fan, and never seemed to miss in his first attempt at solving a crime or mystery. He engaged my interest in sleuthing over 50 years ago, and we both followed crimes of this sort over the years with great interest. At the outset, we were of opposing opinions on this crime, with him being in the RDI camp, and me (as a seasoned mother and new grandmother), being an IDI, feeling it had to be someone close, but outside the family. Being a Christian, I could not fathom the idea of parents being involved in that type of crime. Such naivete! If JB's death did not serve one other single purpose somewhere, somehow, I can attest that it was the light of the path leading not only me, but probably many others out of sheltered unreality into the a realm of realism that can accompany disordered or ill minds. I moved onto the fence as the years went by, listening to and reading articles casually - always hoping that LE would finally press charges on SOMEONE. JB DESERVES, AT THE VERY LEAST, A CONFIRMED RESOLUTION TO HER DEATH, so she may Rest In PEACE.

Dad passed on 2 years ago, at the age of 85, and up till then, we still had conversations about JB because he thought it was the most tragic unsolved murder case of a child he could imagine. Dad raised up 3 daughters, and was fiercely protective of all of us (I'm the oldest). He always said if anyone ever did anything to one of us girls, and they caught the guy, he would strap dynamite to himself and go down to the police station to announce, "OK - either you let me have the guy, or we're all going up". And those who knew my red-headed, feisty old pop never doubted for a minute he would do exactly that. He especially detested child molestation, being a loving father, grandfather and great-grandfather, and instilled within our family a sense of allegiance to protecting the innocence and value of a child.

After these last nearly 16 years of following the JB case whenever it presented itself through some sort of broadcast media or periodical type print, just prior to the announced release of Kolar's book, and Tricia's radio webcast, the case began to burn into my mind and heart with an intensity I simply cannot explain. I set about studying all the e-media I could, and had also decided to start reading my way through what I hoped would be the best books about the case.

At this time, I learned about John Ramsey's new book, and it struck out at me viciously. The idea of it reeked with narcissism and I resent his decision to use his faith as the catalyst which would allow him to justifiably soothe souls (his, as well as others) while conveniently producing revenue. Yuck. I vowed then and there to bypass any Ramsey publications, and made a decision to look into LE accounts. I verified Kolar's history and experience with the case, and after listening to the broadcast, decided his would be my first book. Now, which book do you recommend for my next read??

Of course, I am developing my own theory of how the crime unfolded, but I will go on record as of this date as saying I am now off the fence and a BDI camper - but, I do feel both JR and PR were involved in the staging of a cover-up, with PR writing the RN. Can't quite get all the details into my own timeline yet, but I think Patsy was the first to know about what her son had done to JB, and at some point JR had to become part of the staging. IMO with all the knowledge shared in Kolar's book, that family had such dysfunction in so many aspects, that NONE of them could have made the most responsible and rational decisions during JB's last hours that would have brought at least a shred of justice to her.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this! I pray that there is a way our Father will enable a final resolve for this case.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Well, well. So why did Patsy not cite this as an explanation. Instead of denying ownership, similarly with John parodying her position?

Its a small detail in a big case, technically the R's dont need to cleanup, we cannot prove much from it, but not removing a visible element that contradicts their own version of events, is curious.

It suggests the possibility, to me at least, that they were ignorant?


.

They weren't ignorant. They were distancing themselves. They also tried to deny ownership of the spoon, the box of tissues, the flashlight (though they admitted owning one "just like it"). If was a matter of them being shown photos taken by LE and just pointing to various things and saying "this isn't ours...that doesn't look familiar", etc. Again- Patsy never cleaned up anything. Neither did the kids. Old habits die hard, and are not broken easily even in an extreme stress situation.
That entire house was a mess- all the time. It always looked ransacked.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

wow, JR's own words, never fail to freak me out. Him going on about JBR screaming bloody murder, kicking, hollering...and then him saying, 'she used to not be scared of anything At All, she was growing up a little bit and getting afraid of the dark and you know, just kind of normal things that--that people start to think about'. What??? JR didn't know if JBR drank tea or not, but he knew her thoughts? and what 'normal' things, exactly, Was she thinking about? And him going on about how exhausted everybody was, including JBR, reminded me of the ransom note, kwim? and his use of the word, ' hollering', reminds of southern slang. I'm a Texan, and use the word, hollering. What struck me though, is how his language, switched back and forth. He used the words screaming and hollering, whereas most people stick with 1. moo. Also, his description of the traditional Christmas breakfast, bugs me. Him saying, JBR normally liked to decorate her pancakes with fruit, but there wasn't time This day, doesn't make sense. This was a special day, with a special breakfast, that she helped prepare. I do believe she would have finished the tradition, by decorating her pancakes with Fruit...which he might have gotten out and put in a pretty bowl with a nice spoon, because like he said, he was in charge of the pancakes. MOO

I've heard the phase "a screaming and hollering" used together before. I'm from Texas also.

 

[BOESP]

:newhere: <snip>
Now, which book do you recommend for my next read??

<snip>

Welcome to the forum! I have read just about all of the books except Kolar's and I have it on order.

My recommendations (in no particular order) would be Steve Thomas's book:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/JonBenet-Inside-Ramsey-Murder-Investigation/dp/0312978618/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344568959&sr=8-1&keywords=steve+thomas+jonbenet"]Amazon.com: JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation (9780312978617): Steve Thomas, Donald A. Davis: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513%2BlJpgqWL.@@AMEPARAM@@513%2BlJpgqWL[/ame]


and Schiller's
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Murder-Town-Uncensored-JonBenet/dp/0061096962/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344569020&sr=8-1&keywords=schiller+jonbenet"]Amazon.com: Perfect Murder, Perfect Town : The Uncensored Story of the JonBenet Murder and the Grand Jury&#39;s Search for the Final Truth (9780061096969): Lawrence Schiller: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ow8-62fCL.@@AMEPARAM@@51Ow8-62fCL[/ame]



and even though you didn't like Ramsey's latest tome, I'd still recommend their book "Death of Innocence."


The other books are good too but the above three illustrate the meat of the case.


If you haven't visited http://www.acandyrose.com you will find a lot of transcripts, photos and other relevant materials.


Will look forward to your posts!

 

[OpenMind4U]

:newhere: If "fence sitting" was a paid job, I'd have quite a vacation fund set aside. Since the murder of JB, this case has weighed heavily on my heart and mind. I am a Newbie on this Forum, and now look forward to adding my opinions on the JB case. I will also post on the thread regarding Kolar's book, since it was the catalyst for me to join WS.

My Dad was a terrific amateur "whodunit" fan, and never seemed to miss in his first attempt at solving a crime or mystery. He engaged my interest in sleuthing over 50 years ago, and we both followed crimes of this sort over the years with great interest. At the outset, we were of opposing opinions on this crime, with him being in the RDI camp, and me (as a seasoned mother and new grandmother), being an IDI, feeling it had to be someone close, but outside the family. Being a Christian, I could not fathom the idea of parents being involved in that type of crime. Such naivete! If JB's death did not serve one other single purpose somewhere, somehow, I can attest that it was the light of the path leading not only me, but probably many others out of sheltered unreality into the a realm of realism that can accompany disordered or ill minds. I moved onto the fence as the years went by, listening to and reading articles casually - always hoping that LE would finally press charges on SOMEONE. JB DESERVES, AT THE VERY LEAST, A CONFIRMED RESOLUTION TO HER DEATH, so she may Rest In PEACE.

Dad passed on 2 years ago, at the age of 85, and up till then, we still had conversations about JB because he thought it was the most tragic unsolved murder case of a child he could imagine. Dad raised up 3 daughters, and was fiercely protective of all of us (I'm the oldest). He always said if anyone ever did anything to one of us girls, and they caught the guy, he would strap dynamite to himself and go down to the police station to announce, "OK - either you let me have the guy, or we're all going up". And those who knew my red-headed, feisty old pop never doubted for a minute he would do exactly that. He especially detested child molestation, being a loving father, grandfather and great-grandfather, and instilled within our family a sense of allegiance to protecting the innocence and value of a child.

After these last nearly 16 years of following the JB case whenever it presented itself through some sort of broadcast media or periodical type print, just prior to the announced release of Kolar's book, and Tricia's radio webcast, the case began to burn into my mind and heart with an intensity I simply cannot explain. I set about studying all the e-media I could, and had also decided to start reading my way through what I hoped would be the best books about the case.

At this time, I learned about John Ramsey's new book, and it struck out at me viciously. The idea of it reeked with narcissism and I resent his decision to use his faith as the catalyst which would allow him to justifiably soothe souls (his, as well as others) while conveniently producing revenue. Yuck. I vowed then and there to bypass any Ramsey publications, and made a decision to look into LE accounts. I verified Kolar's history and experience with the case, and after listening to the broadcast, decided his would be my first book. Now, which book do you recommend for my next read?? Of course, I am developing my own theory of how the crime unfolded, but I will go on record as of this date as saying I am now off the fence and a BDI camper - but, I do feel both JR and PR were involved in the staging of a cover-up, with PR writing the RN. Can't quite get all the details into my own timeline yet, but I think Patsy was the first to know about what her son had done to JB, and at some point JR had to become part of the staging. IMO with all the knowledge shared in Kolar's book, that family had such dysfunction in so many aspects, that NONE of them could have made the most responsible and rational decisions during JB's last hours that would have brought at least a shred of justice to her.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this! I pray that there is a way our Father will enable a final resolve for this case.

Good evening and welcome! I'm like you, cannot put all pieces together in this heartbreaking puzzle. You've asked for advise which book to read next? I don't know which books did you read already? So, I would recommend to start with 'Perfect Murder, Perfect Town' by Schiller and follow with 'JonBenet: Inside of Ramsey Murder Investigation' by Steve Thomas...and of course, I would recommend to order Kolar's book ASAP because it would take up to 3 weeks until you'll be able to read it....so, meantime, you can keep yourself busy reading the above....

You're very lucky to had such a father. Memories of him will stay with you until you'll die. It's a blessing. I'm sure you'll have many stories to tell your children and grand-childrens to keep these memories alife. Looks to me he was the SOLID MAN and DEVOTED FATHER. Let him RIP!!!...and God bless your kind heart....

 

[midwest mama]

Thanks OpenMind and BOESP - Have the Kolar book - it got me up and running after these last nearly 16 years of "browsing" over the case info through other media. Will take your advice on the Thomas book and PMPT. Don't know if I can bring myself to open DOI, but suppose I should if I want to get a more complete perspective.

 

[Bonnette]

Welcome to the forum from a fellow newbie, midwest mama. I, too, recommend Steve Thomas' book - it is more complete than Kolar's for background, since Thomas was present at the outset of this maddening and frustrating case and dealt daily with the full cast of characters. Kolar builds on Thomas' story, but of course he couldn't do more than provide an overview of the history - Kolar's book excels in detailing what came next, what has remained hidden, and what needs to be revealed in order for justice to be served.

I saw your post on another thread, in which you say that the paperback version of the book is now available. I'm so glad! Like you, I want to be able to underline and make notes in the soft cover edition, and preserve the hardback in pristine condition.

Your father sounds like a wonderful man.

 

[midwest mama]

Bonette - Thanks, my pop was more than wonderful, IMHO, and I have witnesses to that! I miss him, but know he's enjoying the wait time until I see him again. Who knows, he might even have connected with little JB, and once again has the jump on me for knowing the real, the whole truth. The paperback Kolar sent to me was, I believe, from the Ventus stash of pre-release copies that I surmise would have been given out as "comps" to some in the profession, and to those like me, who might have had issues getting a hard copy as ordered from the website when it first got up and going for autographed orders. Can't wait to dig deeper into the JB case, and will be keeping a close eye on media for reports of support for Kolar's info and efforts. Don't know if you've ever played any baseball, or been around little league, but there's an expression about it being "time to put on your rally hats" in which my boys always turned their ball caps around, got themselves pumped up, and decided to go out and player harder in an attempt to improve their score. I'm putting in a link to a YouTube video put together about JB, which if you watch it, check out the photo at 0:51, and you'll see JB with that rally hat on. Notice, Burke is there also, and how tall he looks compared to JB, and also his "shiner" under his left eye. Wonder how he got that. Warning, if you haven't seen the video, and do not want to see graphic crime scene photos of JB, DO NOT watch the video, or be ready to shut it down once it gets too graphic for you. I SAY WE SHOULD ALL PUT OUR RALLY HATS ON (maybe even over our "thinking caps" ) and try to get something happening to help JB R.I.P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wphVjsMgX-0

 

[OpenMind4U]

Thank you MM for the video. Very nice sound track. (not accurate info: JBR's head blow happens first and 1 1/2 hours later - the deadly strangulation)....otherwise, very-very nice....Some photo I saw first time. What a tragedy....Agree with you: we should be united and put some pressure on DA and/or other Boulder's authorities..

 

[OpenMind4U]

I need your help, guys. ...just thinking outside of the 'box'. I know that JAR has been 'cleared'...but somehow I feel like I'm missing piece to make the whole picture (or maybe I'm trying to artificially fill-out the holes...Anyway, here are my thoughts:

-JAR has the key to Ramsey house. JR has confirmed that (read JR deposition in regards of broken basement window);
-JAR was the one who said that JR mention that he found JBR at 11:00am (versa 1:00pm, 2 hours difference);
-JAR feels that whoever done the harm to JBR intitled to 'forgiveness';
-JAR's main 'alibi' is the video from ATM at 9:00pm on December 25 in ATLANTA, GA.

The TIME difference between the Time Zones in Atlanta GA and Boulder CO in winter time is 2 hours!!!! So, when JAR has alibi at 9:00pm in Atlanta - Boulder time was only 7:00pm evening. I know, I know - I probably looking for miracle in this maze...but just wondering, the young guy from college could probably have some fake ID (at the minimum to get to the bar for drink. Thanks God my daughters have passed this 21 year old -itch. But I do remember all sort of fake ID's during their college years to be able to get to the bar and have the 'legal' drink....And 1996 was way before 9/11 happens...means, security at the airport was not that strong...so, maybe it's possible that JAR could use the fake ID to buy the plane ticket. He would have plenty time (thanks to time zone difference!!!!) to be at Ramsey's house and back 'on-time' to meet his sister in Atlanta....and therefore, possibly, when his father called next day to tell about JBR - JAR by mistake didn't calculate the time right. This 2 hours difference could confused him....Am I crazy??? (if yes, please be gentle

 

[dodie20]

I need your help, guys. ...just thinking outside of the 'box'. I know that JAR has been 'cleared'...but somehow I feel like I'm missing piece to make the whole picture (or maybe I'm trying to artificially fill-out the holes...Anyway, here are my thoughts:

-JAR has the key to Ramsey house. JR has confirmed that (read JR deposition in regards of broken basement window);
-JAR was the one who said that JR mention that he found JBR at 11:00am (versa 1:00pm, 2 hours difference);
-JAR feels that whoever done the harm to JBR intitled to 'forgiveness';
-JAR's main 'alibi' is the video from ATM at 9:00pm on December 25 in ATLANTA, GA.

The TIME difference between the Time Zones in Atlanta GA and Boulder CO in winter time is 2 hours!!!! So, when JAR has alibi at 9:00pm in Atlanta - Boulder time was only 7:00pm evening. I know, I know - I probably looking for miracle in this maze...but just wondering, the young guy from college could probably have some fake ID (at the minimum to get to the bar for drink. Thanks God my daughters have passed this 21 year old -itch. But I do remember all sort of fake ID's during their college years to be able to get to the bar and have the 'legal' drink....And 1996 was way before 9/11 happens...means, security at the airport was not that strong...so, maybe it's possible that JAR could use the fake ID to buy the plane ticket. He would have plenty time (thanks to time zone difference!!!!) to be at Ramsey's house and back 'on-time' to meet his sister in Atlanta....and therefore, possibly, when his father called next day to tell about JBR - JAR by mistake didn't calculate the time right. This 2 hours difference could confused him....Am I crazy??? (if yes, please be gentle

I don't think you're crazy. One thing I've noticed lately, is that different investigators suspect different people, even if they've supposedly been cleared. It's crazy, and I wonder if anybody should ever have been cleared. These are people who have access to core information, and they've all come to different conclusions.

 

[dodie20]

I've heard the phase "a screaming and hollering" used together before. I'm from Texas also.

I guess I wrote that wrong, by not quoting 'screaming' and 'hollering' as 2 separate words, because I don't think he ever used the phrase, 'screaming and hollering'. He mainly used, the word, 'screaming', and once used 'hollering', as in 'screaming, kicking, and hollering'. I just found it odd. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[UKGuy]

They weren't ignorant. They were distancing themselves. They also tried to deny ownership of the spoon, the box of tissues, the flashlight (though they admitted owning one "just like it"). If was a matter of them being shown photos taken by LE and just pointing to various things and saying "this isn't ours...that doesn't look familiar", etc. Again- Patsy never cleaned up anything. Neither did the kids. Old habits die hard, and are not broken easily even in an extreme stress situation.
That entire house was a mess- all the time. It always looked ransacked.

DeeDee249,
Ok, so which parents, do you think, knew JonBenet had snacked on pineapple?


.

 

[UKGuy]

:newhere: If "fence sitting" was a paid job, I'd have quite a vacation fund set aside. Since the murder of JB, this case has weighed heavily on my heart and mind. I am a Newbie on this Forum, and now look forward to adding my opinions on the JB case. I will also post on the thread regarding Kolar's book, since it was the catalyst for me to join WS.

My Dad was a terrific amateur "whodunit" fan, and never seemed to miss in his first attempt at solving a crime or mystery. He engaged my interest in sleuthing over 50 years ago, and we both followed crimes of this sort over the years with great interest. At the outset, we were of opposing opinions on this crime, with him being in the RDI camp, and me (as a seasoned mother and new grandmother), being an IDI, feeling it had to be someone close, but outside the family. Being a Christian, I could not fathom the idea of parents being involved in that type of crime. Such naivete! If JB's death did not serve one other single purpose somewhere, somehow, I can attest that it was the light of the path leading not only me, but probably many others out of sheltered unreality into the a realm of realism that can accompany disordered or ill minds. I moved onto the fence as the years went by, listening to and reading articles casually - always hoping that LE would finally press charges on SOMEONE. JB DESERVES, AT THE VERY LEAST, A CONFIRMED RESOLUTION TO HER DEATH, so she may Rest In PEACE.

Dad passed on 2 years ago, at the age of 85, and up till then, we still had conversations about JB because he thought it was the most tragic unsolved murder case of a child he could imagine. Dad raised up 3 daughters, and was fiercely protective of all of us (I'm the oldest). He always said if anyone ever did anything to one of us girls, and they caught the guy, he would strap dynamite to himself and go down to the police station to announce, "OK - either you let me have the guy, or we're all going up". And those who knew my red-headed, feisty old pop never doubted for a minute he would do exactly that. He especially detested child molestation, being a loving father, grandfather and great-grandfather, and instilled within our family a sense of allegiance to protecting the innocence and value of a child.

After these last nearly 16 years of following the JB case whenever it presented itself through some sort of broadcast media or periodical type print, just prior to the announced release of Kolar's book, and Tricia's radio webcast, the case began to burn into my mind and heart with an intensity I simply cannot explain. I set about studying all the e-media I could, and had also decided to start reading my way through what I hoped would be the best books about the case.

At this time, I learned about John Ramsey's new book, and it struck out at me viciously. The idea of it reeked with narcissism and I resent his decision to use his faith as the catalyst which would allow him to justifiably soothe souls (his, as well as others) while conveniently producing revenue. Yuck. I vowed then and there to bypass any Ramsey publications, and made a decision to look into LE accounts. I verified Kolar's history and experience with the case, and after listening to the broadcast, decided his would be my first book. Now, which book do you recommend for my next read??

Of course, I am developing my own theory of how the crime unfolded, but I will go on record as of this date as saying I am now off the fence and a BDI camper - but, I do feel both JR and PR were involved in the staging of a cover-up, with PR writing the RN. Can't quite get all the details into my own timeline yet, but I think Patsy was the first to know about what her son had done to JB, and at some point JR had to become part of the staging. IMO with all the knowledge shared in Kolar's book, that family had such dysfunction in so many aspects, that NONE of them could have made the most responsible and rational decisions during JB's last hours that would have brought at least a shred of justice to her.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this! I pray that there is a way our Father will enable a final resolve for this case.

midwest mama,
Steve Thomas' book will give you a good overview of the case, and its political aspects.

Lawrence Schiller's book I found unstructured and rambling, but does contain many insights.

Cyril Wecht's book is also insightful, being an MD, he offers the medical perspective. He has also written other books, e.g. on how to determine the cause of death, and forensic anthropology.

Another book offering an overview is: 120 Clues That Show Who Killed Jonbenet by Sam Dennis McDonough.


.

 

[midwest mama]

Thank you MM for the video. Very nice sound track. (not accurate info: JBR's head blow happens first and 1 1/2 hours later - the deadly strangulation)....otherwise, very-very nice....Some photo I saw first time. What a tragedy....Agree with you: we should be united and put some pressure on DA and/or other Boulder's authorities..

Yes - thanks for making the note on the misinformation. I also noticed some misspellings of words, and perhaps a couple of photos that do not fit in the RDI camp. Knew about the timing of the headbash, and do not agree with the intent of the producer to elicit empathy for the Ramseys, but still thought some might find the overall presentation a nice tribute, and hoped some of the photos be interesting - especially showing Burke to appear athletic. Read somewhere that Patsy had hired some private sports training for Burke, so maybe he wasn't quite as wimpy as some would portray. Lanky does not necessarily depict physical incapability. I know a couple of lean, lankly people I would not want to tangle with, and I'm fairly physically sturdy, even for a senior citizen! Point: Maybe the photo helps to discount the arguments of some who think Burke was too weak to have inflicted the type of injuries to JB that led to her death. :saythat:

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Ok, so which parents, do you think, knew JonBenet had snacked on pineapple?


.

There are four possibilities. JR knew, Patsy knew, both knew, or neither knew.

But based on the fact that both parents tried to distance themselves from everything on that table, the bowl, the pineapple, the tissue box, etc, I'd say they both knew, both were up and about to see it, and Patsy was the one who put it on the table. Doesn't really matter when, the LIE is what makes me believe they knew. They also tried to lie about even having the pineapple in the house, when the rest of it was FOUND in their fridge (what a tidy foreign faction to bring their own pineapple and put the leftovers in the fridge). Patsy danced around the pineapple when LE questioned her, asking "was it canned or fresh?" You can bet that if LE played into her ploy, whatever they answered, she'd have said she only bought the opposite.
The fact remains that JB DID eat the very same pineapple which was both in that bowl and in their fridge. I'd say chances of the parents' not knowing is very slim.

 

[tweezybird]

MM, could you post the link again, I can't get it to work.
Terri

 

[txsvicki]

Imo, most if not all the staging (if there really was any besides the note.) Was done by a slob down in the basement only and no attempts to give cpr if jonbenet was thought to be dead. The vaginal stab was done just before death from the strangling and i don't think a 9 year old would have found the right spot to make one jab in the same place as previously assaulted with only one try.