Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Chewy]

Nonsense. People don't suddenly wake up on Christmas and torture and maim their child.

There is nothing to indicate this. Saying "it wasn't an intruder" doesn't make it so.

If you are going to accuse someone of such a heinous crime then show the reason, the motive?

 

[Chrishope]

Nonsense. People don't suddenly wake up on Christmas and torture and maim their child.

There is nothing to indicate this. Saying "it wasn't an intruder" doesn't make it so.

If you are going to accuse someone of such a heinous crime then show the reason, the motive?

My reasons for saying it wasn't an intruder are in a post further up. Just scroll up a bit. (Post #840)

This isn't a case where we are going to fully understand the motive until we nail the killer, maybe not even then.

I agree the abruptness of the killing isn't in keeping with what we know of the Rs prior to the killing. That makes it hard to accept that one or both (IMO JR) did it. But we don't know all about the Rs before the murder, just what is in the public eye.

 

[UKGuy]

The depraved nature of the staging points to an Intruder. Think about it, if someone hit JB and the parents found out, they could have easily staged something else, what parent is going to cover it up with such a violation of their child's dead body?

A mother's instinct would be to preserve her dignity. A blow to the head that killed her could have been set up as a fall in the bathtub. JB wet the bed, PR could have said she didn't want to get in trouble and tried to clean herself up and fell in the tub and cracked her head and died.

There's no reason for all this. It's someone who knew them and hated them.

Chewy,
There is no evidence, absolutely none that supports the idea, that an intruder killed JonBenet!


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[Chewy]

Everyone is treating the intruder as someone who broke in at night. To me it seems pretty typical for burglars to rob people's homes on Christmas. It looks to me like someone got in the house while they were away at a party and spent time looking through everything trying to find a way to get money. Maybe as an attempt to "case the joint' intending to come back another day. This is why they were careful not to disturb anything. The find information about JR's bonus, a memo on the desk or something and decide to try to kidnap their child.

Home invasions that kidnap family members and drive to a bank are limited in the amount of money they can get and risk identification on camera.

Perhaps once they saw they could get a lot more money they came up with a plan.

Why? Because they are on drugs and not thinking clearly. As he attempts to move her, he hurts her and then abandons the plan.

The letter could have been written much earlier in the day. Why would JR or PR sit there writing out such a long stupid letter? In a panic? They could have just written "we have your daughter" why all the crap about a mysterious government faction.

That's the rantings of a deluded mind. It sounds childish and silly and "movie" like a young person trying to sound very sophisticated like all the movies he's watched.


Also absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

 

[UKGuy]

Everyone is treating the intruder as someone who broke in at night. To me it seems pretty typical for burglars to rob people's homes on Christmas. It looks to me like someone got in the house while they were away at a party and spent time looking through everything trying to find a way to get money. Maybe as an attempt to "case the joint' intending to come back another day. This is why they were careful not to disturb anything. The find information about JR's bonus, a memo on the desk or something and decide to try to kidnap their child.

Home invasions that kidnap family members and drive to a bank are limited in the amount of money they can get and risk identification on camera.

Perhaps once they saw they could get a lot more money they came up with a plan.

Why? Because they are on drugs and not thinking clearly. As he attempts to move her, he hurts her and then abandons the plan.

The letter could have been written much earlier in the day. Why would JR or PR sit there writing out such a long stupid letter? In a panic? They could have just written "we have your daughter" why all the crap about a mysterious government faction.

That's the rantings of a deluded mind. It sounds childish and silly and "movie" like a young person trying to sound very sophisticated like all the movies he's watched.


Also absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Chewy,
Oh there is evidence. It just does not link to anyone outside of the Ramsey house!


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[Chewy]

Nice dodge. What MOTIVE or REASON would they have to do this? She wet the bed?

I mean some people are hysterical to me.

Scenario 1 A burglar comes into the home during Christmas with the intent to rob the family and take them to an ATM machine but finds that JR has a bonus. Get's too clever for his own good and tries to set up an elaborate kidnapping scheme only to realize he's in over his head. He ultimately abandons the plan and tortures the child's body out of resentment that it went wrong.

Or

A mother and father find their daughter has wet the bed and beat her to death and then arrange a huge cover up that includes garroting their child and sexually violating her?

Because that's what a parent would do in a cover up? Not an easier scenario of throwing her in the showier and saying she fell and cracked her head.

 

[Chewy]

How? All the doors were reported locked by both John and the police, who double checked. The broken basement window showed no signs that anyone had passed through it, two spider webs were found intact, thick layer of dust and dirt was undisturbed. The police reported no sign of forced entry. Which means the intruder must have had a key. But an intruder with a key is an intruder who is prepared ahead of time. So if he's contemplating a kidnapping, he'd have prepared a note ahead of time -- but he didn't, he wrote it in the house. Why? And an intruder with a key is likely to be someone known to the family and thus someone who could have anticipated being investigated. Yet he has no problem leaving a 2 1/2 page hand written ransom note for the police to find and compare with his writing. Why? Also, why go to all the trouble of writing the note if you don't actually kidnap anyone? And if you abandon that plan, then why leave the note anyhow? And why oh why bother to hide the body in the most remote room in the house, flipping the latch closed after you leave?

That's only necessary if he broke in at night. If he walked in the front or back door during the day it wouldn't be so hard? He could have walked straight out the front door and left when he was done.

Why go to all the trouble to write a note? Well lets see, what makes more sense, parents who have just murdered their child sit down and write out a long long letter while panicking and covering up a murder.

Or an intruder who has changed his mind from a couple thousand dollars to $118,000 dollars sits around waiting for the family to come home. He explores the house and finds the room downstairs, he grabs the pad in the kitchen and sits there writing out this "Movie Ransome Note" they are a huge faction, very organized etc.

The note shows no sign of being written by someone on drugs. The left margin is carefully observed, as are the guidelines on the note paper. The spacing of the letters and the spacing between words is consistent. Almost all the i's are dotted and t's crossed. The vocabulary and grammar are those of an educated person, and the note has a clearly defined beginning, middle and end.

I wasn't aware that intruders were uneducated. Where were you when Ted Bundy was executed? You could have saved him with that logic. :waitasec:

Why would an intruder write such a long, detailed letter or indeed write any letter at all, since he could easily have phoned in his demands later that morning. Why leave a letter that could be used as evidence against him? If John killed his daughter, as I feel sure he did, then every detail of that "ransom note" can be explained as part of a plan to stage a phoney kidnapping. For details, see this blog post.

Once again I am asking you the MOTIVE or REASON that her parents would do this? It is never answered. It is also completely ridiculous to suggest that JR went to all this trouble to prevent the police from being called and then just stood there and watched her calling 911. Why not grab the phone and away and say "No they will kill her, I'll just pay the money, give me 24 hours" People have all these theories that they start off with and then never question logically.

Not true. An intruder present in the house long enough to do all that he is supposed to have done would certainly have left many signs of his presence, and those signs would have been obvious. Especially since he was clearly not trying to hide his presence. How could he, since the child was murdered and a note was left? So something is very wrong with this theory, sorry.

You are just making things up. If the burglar knew the family would be out for the night, there is no reason for him not to take his time.

Again absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Chewy]

Once again.

What MOTIVE or REASON would John Ramsey have to do this?

 

[Chewy]

Maybe he had to go to the toilet???????????????????

That's the best you can come up with? LOL ok. We'll agree to disagree.


There was no "maybe" about it, as soon as she found the note she called 911 and he didn't stop her. That is what happened. Nothing you posted is remotely close to what happened.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe he had to go to the toilet???????????????????

That's the best you can come up with? LOL ok. We'll agree to disagree.


There was no "maybe" about it, as soon as she found the note she called 911 and he didn't stop her. That is what happened. Nothing you posted is remotely close to what happened.

Chewy,
Now that what I call a Gotcha! In docg's theory JR masterminds everything right down to faking the ransom note, with plans to take JonBenet's corpse with him, when he goes to withdraw $118,000 from a bank. Yet he forgets to find the note and call to Patsy "JonBenet is missing".

Patsy stated that it was John who told her to dial 911. If John could not work out that Patsy might dial 911, how was he to ever know he would get to leave the house at all? That is, his vision of the future may never transpire.

Sadly for docg's theory it does not explain away all the forensic evidence as the true bona fide theory would. Trace forensic evidence belonging to Patsy is left all over JonBenet and the wine-cellar a location Patsy denied visiting that day or the night before.

The difference between standard RDI theories and docg's is that in the former the staging is considered completed when JonBenet is placed into the wine-cellar, and in the latter the staged kidnapping is yet to occur.

Maybe docg is 100% correct and the true purpose of the samsonite suitcase was to transport JonBenet to his car?

Em, so why not do that instead of placing her in the wine-cellar, i.e. put her in the boot?

I give up , its too complicated, LOL!


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[Chewy]

So your theory is that he concocted the note to keep her away from the house and come back and move the body under the guise of getting the ransom money.

But he TOLD her to call 911. Ok yeah, you're not making any sense at all.

Once again what is the motive?


I am guessing you guys have no kids because it just doesn't make sense. If it was an accidental death from hitting her in a moment of rage on the head, I would think someone would have either thrown her down the stairs or into a shower or tub. Traumatic head injuries happen to children all the time. Granted they may have been suspects but this is a whole nother thing.


There is no motive for JR or PR to desecrate their child's body like that, nor to take the time to write out a long childish pretend letter about a kidnapping. I think the intruder intended to kidnap her inside the house and pretend that she had been abducted and confront JR as one of the men. He writes out this whole scenario and goes and gets her and accidentally kills her.

Now the plan is scrapped, he hides her in the basement and leaves the note. He's angry because he's not getting any money so he desecrates the body on top of it.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The depraved nature of the staging points to an Intruder. Think about it, if someone hit JB and the parents found out, they could have easily staged something else, what parent is going to cover it up with such a violation of their child's dead body?

A mother's instinct would be to preserve her dignity. A blow to the head that killed her could have been set up as a fall in the bathtub. JB wet the bed, PR could have said she didn't want to get in trouble and tried to clean herself up and fell in the tub and cracked her head and died.

There's no reason for all this. It's someone who knew them and hated them.

Whoever did it spent a very long time in the house.

Assuming IDI, they achieved all of this while two adults and another child slept upstairs.

There is an enormous list of "staging" that occurred but what IDI implies is

The intruder fed JB pineapple - how does this go when you're kidnapping a child?

You enter the child's bedroom, silently, no doubt putting your hand over her mouth so she can't call out.

You then carry her downstairs, again silently.

You then carry her into the kitchen, sit her down, and ask her if she wants a snack, getting her some pineapple you didn't even know existed?!

Sorry but that just did not happen!

:twocents:

 

[Chewy]

Just because she ate pineapple doesn't mean the perp fed it to her.

I get frustrated at the leaps in logic discussing this case amounts to. A burglar at Christmas time is NORMAL. Home invasions happen all the time. They had a big house and were gone for a long time. A burglar could have gotten in easily and remained there. In fact two people could have been there.

Once they realized how rich JR was they might have thought to attempt a kidnapping in order to get the money. If had a paper out with the bonus or mention of it, or if they were people who knew him, they'd know he has the money. The person who wrote the letter knew the bonus amount.

Here's the other leap of logic that I think is dumb, that people say that JR went to all this trouble to write this ransom note and then mentioned a specific amount of money that only he would know about and point the suspicion directly at himself?

It makes no sense to write that amount of money. Why the specific number.

What doesn't make sense is the way people create illogical scenarios because they don't know what happened.

I have still YET to get an answer to my simple question. What motive or reason would he have for murdering and desecrating his child's body?

Give a real reason. If he wanted to kill her he could have just pushed her down the stairs or shoved her while she was taking a showed and bashed her head on the tub. Why this elaborate staging?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Just because she ate pineapple doesn't mean the perp fed it to her.

I get frustrated at the leaps in logic discussing this case amounts to. A burglar at Christmas time is NORMAL. Home invasions happen all the time. They had a big house and were gone for a long time. A burglar could have gotten in easily and remained there. In fact two people could have been there.

Once they realized how rich JR was they might have thought to attempt a kidnapping in order to get the money. If had a paper out with the bonus or mention of it, or if they were people who knew him, they'd know he has the money. The person who wrote the letter knew the bonus amount.

Here's the other leap of logic that I think is dumb, that people say that JR went to all this trouble to write this ransom note and then mentioned a specific amount of money that only he would know about and point the suspicion directly at himself?

It makes no sense to write that amount of money. Why the specific number.

What doesn't make sense is the way people create illogical scenarios because they don't know what happened.

I have still YET to get an answer to my simple question. What motive or reason would he have for murdering and desecrating his child's body?

Give a real reason. If he wanted to kill her he could have just pushed her down the stairs or shoved her while she was taking a showed and bashed her head on the tub. Why this elaborate staging?

No, but someone did.

Patsy's fingerprints were found on the bowl, so I'm going with the likliehood that she did.

This means that she lied.

Once you start to question her version of events, it becomes pretty clear that she lied a lot.

Then you take in the sheer lack of physical evidence of a third party, on JB or anywhere around her, indeed in the house.

Then you see how the parents reacted to police, each other, other people just after her death. The absolute lack of cooperation with the people who were trying to find their daughter's murderer. It all paints a very ugly picture indeed.

I notice you seem to be accusing JR only, thereby not seeing motive. If you put PR in the frame, you start to see one great big motive, and that is Munchausens by Proxy, and some sort of psychopathy as well. Jonbenet was her plaything. I have no doubt JB's earlier bed wetting problems are due to ongoing trauma to her genitals, which could well have been inflicted by PR to get ongoing medical attention.

PR clearly was a woman who lived a different life to most of us. She had almost unlimited riches and a very high value on appearance, yet still lived in an uncouth way in her daily life. There was little or no regular personal hygiene for the children and the house was permanently messy, despite paid help. This could be an indicator of mental illness.

I absolutely believe JR was involved, and his contribution could have been to sexually abuse JB, which PR blackmailed him with. I believe he was behind the garrote, personally. He'd had military experience.

Apply the laws of KISS and there really is only one logical explanation.

My opinion only of course.

:twocents:

:cow:

 

[Chewy]

on the one hand you say KISS and then on the other you are talking Munchausen by Proxy.

Look I remember several years ago I reported my boss for sexual harassment and violent outbursts.

During the time he was there he'd do very scary violent things and I would have to try to solve the problems he left behind once he left the store. There were two incidents in which I didn't ring in a purchase in order to pay for a car service for a woman who had a child who needed to be picked up from school. He'd always make her stay late. And one time she was too late. So, it was around Halloween and I didn't ring in two costumes I would think the total would be about $20 for them. I gave her the money for the cab.

Once I reported him she had to tell the bosses what I did. When they interviewed me I only remembered doing it once. For some reason I remembered the first time I did it but I didn't remember the last one which was mere days ago. I completely blanked out. I was exhausted and an emotional wreck and going through an interrogation and I have no idea why I forgot but I did.

They mentioned "more money being taken" and I still didn't register it. Finally they asked me to write down everything I remembered doing that was against company policy and I remembered. There was a man in the room with me and he was smiling at how happy I was because I remembered. He could see I was sincere.

I don't think forgetting the details or mixing things up is lying. Especially right after a traumatic experience like finding your child murdered on Christmas day and a ransom etc.

But I think your post reveals why women especially are so hard on PR, it's downright resentment that she lived this affluent lifestyle. Since she lives in luxury people try to dehumanize her and make her less than any other mother would be.

 

[UKGuy]

So your theory is that he concocted the note to keep her away from the house and come back and move the body under the guise of getting the ransom money.

But he TOLD her to call 911. Ok yeah, you're not making any sense at all.

Once again what is the motive?


I am guessing you guys have no kids because it just doesn't make sense. If it was an accidental death from hitting her in a moment of rage on the head, I would think someone would have either thrown her down the stairs or into a shower or tub. Traumatic head injuries happen to children all the time. Granted they may have been suspects but this is a whole nother thing.


There is no motive for JR or PR to desecrate their child's body like that, nor to take the time to write out a long childish pretend letter about a kidnapping. I think the intruder intended to kidnap her inside the house and pretend that she had been abducted and confront JR as one of the men. He writes out this whole scenario and goes and gets her and accidentally kills her.

Now the plan is scrapped, he hides her in the basement and leaves the note. He's angry because he's not getting any money so he desecrates the body on top of it.

Chewy,
You should get a JonBenet book, Kolar or Steve Thomas are good. This will quickly allow you to see why IDI is complete nonsense, and RDI is cogent.

Otherwise you will be continually tilting at windmills and batting flies.


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[Chewy]

Wow Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowls in her kitchen. That's some compelling evidence right there.

So we've got this big liar who fed her child pineapple, (evil clue number one) and sexually and sadistically attacked her daughter. Beat her, took he to the basement and garroted her neck and then sexually assaulted her...........because she was a slob who had focused on appearances. Makes perfect sense.


Or we have an opportunistic burglar who has a criminal past, breaking into the house by climbing in a window or someone carelessly leaving a door open. Staying inside the house until the family comes home to try to do a kidnapping and then the plan goes wrong so he leaves.

I'm still waiting for any motive here for the parents to do this to their child. Aside from her being sloppy what evidence do you all have?

Other than books and theories published by people trying to make money off the death of a small child?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

The depraved nature of the staging points to an Intruder. Think about it, if someone hit JB and the parents found out, they could have easily staged something else, what parent is going to cover it up with such a violation of their child's dead body?

A mother's instinct would be to preserve her dignity. A blow to the head that killed her could have been set up as a fall in the bathtub. JB wet the bed, PR could have said she didn't want to get in trouble and tried to clean herself up and fell in the tub and cracked her head and died.

There's no reason for all this. It's someone who knew them and hated them.

JonBent was being molested before that night. Burke and JonBent had been found in bed together before by the housekeeper, and was yelled at to get out. There were several books found in John and Pasty's bedroom,along with a dictionary opened to incest, that pointed to her children having some serious emotional and behavioral problems. James Kolar brought several things to the table about children and hyper sexuality and leaves open a good possibility of Burke molesting her. That would be something Pasty Ramsey would never want known.

A neighbor heard a child's terrify scream, that ended abruptly between midnight and two in the morning and it's safe to say it was from JonBent. That is in the time frame of JonBenet eating pineapple and her death.

There was no way John and Pasty could say they found JonBent in her bed molested and dead. They would of been arrested on the spot. An intruder could account for the crime, but why not leave her uncovered for all to see what they did? One of the basic tenets of a kidnapping is take the hostage with you when you leave. Why leave your prize behind? Why take the time and write a rambling ransom note on Pasty's pad of paper with one of Pasty's markers? The longer you stay in the house the chances of being caught rise, and more chances of leaving fingerprints,DNA and fibers behind. Once JonBenet was found in her own home there would be no reason to pay anyone a ransom. Why not take collect the money and dump her somewhere? It was a small amount and John Ramsey had friends ready to get the money from his bank that morning. That was the price they were willing to "lose" on a ransom for JonBent.

JonBenet was wearing brand new size twelve panties, right out of the package, when found. She wore size six and there were quite a few of them,but no other size twelve panties were found in the house by the crime scene technicians. Her blood was on those panties and her blood was on her thighs that had been wiped down. Black fibers that were matched to John's black shirt, that he wore to the White's Christmas party the night before, were found in the crotch of those brand new panties. Someone redressed JonBent before killing her.

Fibers from Pasty's red sweater, that she had also worn the day before, were found on the duct tape found on JonBenet's mouth, and wrapped in the cord around her neck. More red fibers were found in Pasty's paint tote, along with a piece of that paintbrush that matched the one found in the cord around her neck. One piece of broken paintbrush was never found, but cellulose found in JonBenet's vagina was considered to be consistent with that paintbrush.

Now, what are the odds of someone else, wearing the same clothes as Pasty and John, and those things associated with her and the crime scene, molesting and killing JonBenet?

If 911 had been called after the head bash, John and Pasty would of been arrested at the hospital as soon as the previous and the sexual molestation of that night was discovered. They thought JonBent was already dead, but something got their attention and someone made the decision to end her life rather than seek help for her. Someone put a cord around her neck and choked her to death. That may of been, in their mind, the most humane way to end her suffering.

That is why many believe a Ramsey killed JonBenet. There is nothing that points to any one else. It was an unintentional act followed by her murder.

 

[UKGuy]

Wow Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowls in her kitchen. That's some compelling evidence right there.

So we've got this big liar who fed her child pineapple, (evil clue number one) and sexually and sadistically attacked her daughter. Beat her, took he to the basement and garroted her neck and then sexually assaulted her...........because she was a slob who had focused on appearances. Makes perfect sense.


Or we have an opportunistic burglar who has a criminal past, breaking into the house by climbing in a window or someone carelessly leaving a door open. Staying inside the house until the family comes home to try to do a kidnapping and then the plan goes wrong so he leaves.

I'm still waiting for any motive here for the parents to do this to their child. Aside from her being sloppy what evidence do you all have?

Other than books and theories published by people trying to make money off the death of a small child?

Chewy,

Or we have an opportunistic burglar

Nope, as I told you. There is no evidence to support that view. Why are you banging on about motive, if you do not know then construct what you consider a good explanation incorporating motive, opportunity, means etc.

I'm not going to waste my time speculating on motive until it accords with your sensibilities.


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[Chewy]

Who hit her then?