Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[borndem]

I think BR & JB were snacking in the kitchen after each of them had slept for a while. Something happened between the young R's, and BR went after her with the flashlight, chasing her around the kitchen. She screamed and he struck her and she fell on the floor and he struck her with the flashlight again. She was down and unconscious and could not get up. JR & PR had heard the scream and they both ran down to the kitchen right way where they found the children. JR figured what happened & he told BR to go to bed & stay there till they told him he could leave. BR complied, knowing he had really hurt his sister.

JR decided to fake a kidnapping to keep LE of off BR. They wanted to save the only child they had left and to keep their lifestyle as they knew it. JR master-minded the cover-up. They took JB down to the basement & JR decided the WC would be the best place to hide her. PR saw she was still breathing & realized she was severely wounded and dying. She found some rope, fashioned the garrotte using one of her paintbrushes and she strangled her to hasten her death to put and end to her daughter's pain in a slow death. JR told PR to start writing a RN, he covered her up, & decided to dump her body later.

PR was very careful while writing the note with some help from JR. They were now well into the night and knew that the morning was coming soon. After she finished the RN to her satisfaction, then she took a bit of time deciding where to put it. Then she jumped the gun & called 911 -- she was panicked by then, and she didn't know, or forgot, about the body-dump. So the "later" body dump never had a chance to occur. Knowing the EMT's were on their way, PR began calling friends. Everything thereafter was wingin' it.

All of 'em were in on it, IMO.

 

[borndem]

DeeDee, thanks for the reply. I certainly wouldn't rule JR out, I just meant that I understand why, of all the R's, he's the least viewed as the killer...at least according to this poll.

I obviously can't speak for everyone, only myself, but JR doesn't seem like a knee-jerk reaction kind of guy to me. He seems very calculating to me; the kind of person who plans everything 3 or 4 moves ahead. That's how he handled everything to do with the investigation, and it seems to me that's probably been his approach to everything for most of his adult life.

I agree that JB's death was most likely a knee-jerk reaction, which is another reason I have trouble accepting JDI...unless the JR in question is JAR, who I'd like to know a lot more about. To me, knee-jerk points more to BR, then JAR, then PR all before JR. The child and young adult first, because of a lack of life experience, they're the least likely to expect a wrinkle in their plan. PR next because so much of what she does seems to be more reactive than proactive. It just doesn't seem to fit JR's character, as best I can tell...but that certainly doesn't mean he couldn't have done it- just I see him as the least likely to have done it.

Agreed, FreeSafety. I put JR at the end of the 3 R's, too. My initial reasoning was because he'd already lost one daughter; but the other reasons were formed as I read & read & began to get to "know" him better. Yes, he's too cool & calculating, & I mean that in the businessman vein and not in a negative way. I'm not a JR fan, but I just can't see him doing that to JB.

 

[FreeSafety36]

I think BR & JB were snacking in the kitchen after each of them had slept for a while. Something happened between the young R's, and BR went after her with the flashlight, chasing her around the kitchen. She screamed and he struck her and she fell on the floor and he struck her with the flashlight again. She was down and unconscious and could not get up. JR & PR had heard the scream and they both ran down to the kitchen right way where they found the children. JR figured what happened & he told BR to go to bed & stay there till they told him he could leave. BR complied, knowing he had really hurt his sister.

JR decided to fake a kidnapping to keep LE of off BR. They wanted to save the only child they had left and to keep their lifestyle as they knew it. JR master-minded the cover-up. They took JB down to the basement & JR decided the WC would be the best place to hide her. PR saw she was still breathing & realized she was severely wounded and dying. She found some rope, fashioned the garrotte using one of her paintbrushes and she strangled her to hasten her death to put and end to her daughter's pain in a slow death. JR told PR to start writing a RN, he covered her up, & decided to dump her body later.

PR was very careful while writing the note with some help from JR. They were now well into the night and knew that the morning was coming soon. After she finished the RN to her satisfaction, then she took a bit of time deciding where to put it. Then she jumped the gun & called 911 -- she was panicked by then, and she didn't know, or forgot, about the body-dump. So the "later" body dump never had a chance to occur. Knowing the EMT's were on their way, PR began calling friends. Everything thereafter was wingin' it.

All of 'em were in on it, IMO.

borndem, this is pretty much my thinking as well. I believe BR was responsible for the head bash, and perhaps the initial strangulation marks that became the reason for the garrote (as a cover up). I think JR did most, if not all of the clean-up and staging of the crime scene, while PR's job was to get BR to bed (probably with chemical help for him and herself) and then she wrote the note. I waver on whether JR had input on the note, or even knew of it's existence. I think PR's chemical aid was likely wearing off by the time she was getting to the end of the note. She was panicky, and I think perhaps JR had told her they'd write a RN together after he showered (he had to make sure all the evidence from the clean-up was off him) and then he would take the body and dump it somewhere it would be easily found, and while he was out he'd pick up the ransom money from the bank. If any neighbors saw him leave that morning, they would use the excuse he'd went to the bank, and he'd have the proof of the withdrawal matching the ransom amount. Perhaps while he was out, PR was to call LE and the excuse would be she panicked, which would explain why the 'kidnappers' killed her.

I believe after JR got in the shower, PR either couldn't stand the thought of JB's body being dumped or perhaps just couldn't keep it together, and blew the plan before JR could get the body out of the house.

 

[expat79]

JR decided to fake a kidnapping to keep LE of off BR. They wanted to save the only child they had left and to keep their lifestyle as they knew it.

And also, to cover up some family secrets.

 

[txsvicki]

Could JonBenet have been hit in the head at the same time she was being grabbed and held by the throat? If something like that happened it would answer my question about not having bruises from falling when hit. I still don't see how the cord was perfectly lined up with the quarter size abrasion on the throat if JonBenet was strangled on her stomach though.

 

[DeeDee249]

Could JonBenet have been hit in the head at the same time she was being grabbed and held by the throat? If something like that happened it would answer my question about not having bruises from falling when hit. I still don't see how the cord was perfectly lined up with the quarter size abrasion on the throat if JonBenet was strangled on her stomach though.

I suppose they could have happened at the same time, but only is 2 people were involved. I strongly disagree with any form of manual grabbing or strangulation. There would be marks- there are none. We cannot ignore this physical evidence, no matter how we play the scene out in theory. There was absolutely NO evidence she was grabbed around the throat or manually strangled.
The possibility that she was strangled on her stomach has no bearing on the formation of the red triangular mark. I do not call it an "abrasion" even though the coroner did. An abrasion implies rubbing away. This mark was described as "parchment-like" but that is because she was dead. The

 

[Sandstorm]

Looks like Patsy is in the lead with 160 votes and then Burke second. Wish there would be a huge development soon so we could all gave our questions answered as to who was responsible for killing her. Can't believe this thread is still going strong after all this time...JonBenet will never be forgotten.

JenniferTx,
IMO there was a huge developement this year: The release of the grand jury indictment.
Also. the release of A.James Kolar's book: Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?

The indictment confirms that there was enough evidence to arrest John and Patsy.
And then after reading Kolar's book, the possible scenairos lined up in order of what most likely happened that night.

Some of you have followed this a lot closer than I have throughout the years.
I gave up on the JonBenet case UNTIL the indictment was released and then I KNEW that one of the 3 Ramseys had gotten away with killing JonBenet. After reading Kolar's book, who had studied the Ramsey case for 15 years, I concluded it was Burke who killed JonBenet.

IMO, the #1 scenario is:
Before everything went to hell in a basket,
Burke and JB were in the kitchen,
they each ate pineapple....
BR and JB were ready for bed and started 'playing' with the cord
BR put it around her neck as some have mentioned as a leash to play puppy' or 'kitty' .

Burke begins molesting JB,
JB screams so loud it was heard by the neighbor,
Burke bashes JB on the head with a golf club.
At the same time, the cord is pulled tight around JB's neck
JR and PR walk in the room to see JB out cold with the cord around her neck.
JR and PR think JB is near death, or dead, or brain damaged.
JR and PR do not know she has the skull injury since there are no visible signs, but they see the cord
where she has been strangled.
( this makes more sense to me rather than the parents getting cord and strangleing JB themselves for staging purposes)

John and Patsy make a wrong turn with the decision to cover it up which includes the additional cords in the strangulation staging so that it appeared a perverted sexual assault by an intruder.

Patsy 100% wrote the RN.
They were up all night in a state of panic.

Bottom line: we are extremely close to the truth since the indictment was released and after reading Kolar's book.

Crimesider Staff CBS News October 25, 2013, 1: 34 PM
JonBenet Ramsey Update: Judge releases 1999 indictments of John and Patsy Ramsey


The documents released Friday show that the grand jury voted to charge both John and Patsy Ramsey with one count of Child Abuse Resulting in Death and one count of Accessory to a Crime. The grand jury issued two separate, but identical indictments for each parent. They state:

On or between Dec. 25 and Dec. 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colo., John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen.

And:

On or between Dec. 25 and Dec. 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colo., John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jonbene...es-1999-indictments-of-john-and-patsy-ramsey/

 

[Arnie M]

According to one of the best FBI profilers ....

A guilty parent will disassociate themselves by using words like .... "that child" .... or .... "that girl"

A parent who is not guilty would say .... "Jonbenet" ...or .... "my daughter"

Make note of what Patsy does in this police interview.

It has her guilt written all over it

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlxJRb5T_XM"]Patsy Ramsey Interrogation with Tom Haney and Trip DeMuth - YouTube[/ame]

 

[wengr]

Oh, Imo she is guilty. Guilty of what exactly is the question.

 

[DeeDee249]

As both parents were named in identical indictments, I do not see how any rational person could believe they are not covering up for their son(s). There is simply no way any parent would cover up for anyone else except one of their other kids. The second of the two may as well had BR's name on it.

Now here's the thing...it isn't hard to figure out what that coward AH lied about the indictments- but wasn't that illegal? Declining to sign them or declining to indict them was within his right, and as a coward, he chose to do neither. But lying about it had to be illegal. I suppose he is protected now...statutes of limitations and all.
I know there is no limit on prosecuting murder and sexual assault of a child, but I truly wish that other crimes associated with murder and sexual assault would have no statue limitations either. That would make JR prosecutable for aiding and abetting, obstruction, lying to police, etc. And maybe AH would be able to be held accountable.
I also wonder whether, now that it is public that there was no intruder and obvious that a family member committed the crime, would LHP, FW & his wife, JM and all the others who were thrown under the bus in the R's disgusting attempt to cover up for their family member can now proceed with a defamation lawsuit?

 

[bettybaby00]

As both parents were named in identical indictments, I do not see how any rational person could believe they are not covering up for their son(s). There is simply no way any parent would cover up for anyone else except one of their other kids. The second of the two may as well had BR's name on it.

Now here's the thing...it isn't hard to figure out what that coward AH lied about the indictments- but wasn't that illegal? Declining to sign them or declining to indict them was within his right, and as a coward, he chose to do neither. But lying about it had to be illegal. I suppose he is protected now...statutes of limitations and all.
I know there is no limit on prosecuting murder and sexual assault of a child, but I truly wish that other crimes associated with murder and sexual assault would have no statue limitations either. That would make JR prosecutable for aiding and abetting, obstruction, lying to police, etc. And maybe AH would be able to be held accountable.
I also wonder whether, now that it is public that there was no intruder and obvious that a family member committed the crime, would LHP, FW & his wife, JM and all the others who were thrown under the bus in the R's disgusting attempt to cover up for their family member can now proceed with a defamation lawsuit?

I've wondered how both DAs in this case haven't faced formal investigations regarding the handling of this case, especially now that the GJ's true bill has now been released.

Sometimes I wonder if it's as simple as there hasn't been anyone with enough Bxxxx to proceed with an investigation?

I can related a personal situation, which is in no way comparative in severity, but maybe sheds light on how sometimes people are able to "get away" with something.

I have a neighbor who has been doing major renovations on his home for the last several years. He continually violates village ordinances while conducting construction, and has been able to "get away" with all manner of disruptive and illegal behaviors simply B/C no is willing to get involved, especially b/c he has "connections."

I know this seems a silly comparison, but I think it illustrates how easy it is for officials to let things slide simply b/c no one is willing to make enough noise to rectify a wrong There hasn't been much of an outcry against the Boulder DAs office. Kolar, and FW have been outspoken to be sure, but who else has?

But in addition, I also wonder how much of the wall of silence is a result of who is guilty...and the fact that if it is BDI, he can't ever be named in any way?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

One thing to note about the various polls is that they reflect a moment in time based on when they were created. It's probably fair to say everyone has changed their opinion of who did it over the years as the case evolved.

To your last point, that connection isn't surprising.

I've never changed my mind about who I think did it, but I will say that I looked at every possible option, and for a time, seriously considered Steve Thomas' theory. In fact, I still think there's some merit to that theory. There's certainly NO doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

 

[FreeSafety36]

One thing to note about the various polls is that they reflect a moment in time based on when they were created. It's probably fair to say everyone has changed their opinion of who did it over the years as the case evolved.

To your last point, that connection isn't surprising.

This is true. However, there is also an option, under the poll options, to change your vote. I'm sure not everyone who has changed their mind has changed their vote in the poll, but I would guess some have.

 

[txsvicki]

I've never thought John did any covering up until he cought on either right before or just after police arrived. Years ago I thought the slim possibility of intruder or Patsy, but now wondering if a child could have done all except the final staging of wiping and moving the body into the wine room and writing the note. I'm not even totally sure that JonBenet was carried into the wine room instead of perhaps drug somehow onto the blanket, or in the blanket. Maybe we haven't been told everything. I've also wondered for about a year if the wrist cords were a way to move and injured person. Loosely tie the hands, place the rop over the mover's head, pick up the upper body, and scoot the unconscious person.

 

[Arnie M]

As far as the blanket .... I cannot see a violent intruder-murderer going out of his way to place Jonbenet on a blanket in the wine cellar .... the blanket is something a parent would do.

 

[Tawny]

As far as the blanket .... I cannot see a violent intruder-murderer going out of his way to place Jonbenet on a blanket in the wine cellar .... the blanket is something a parent would do.

If for no other reason than to keep any mess from happening, but yes, I feel the same way. An intruder would just stash the body, on the cold floor, uncovered. Why go through the trouble of covering a body you know will be found sooner rather than later? Makes no sense, unless you are emotionally connected to the body or you are trying to avoid a mess on the floor.

 

[bettybaby00]

This is true. However, there is also an option, under the poll options, to change your vote. I'm sure not everyone who has changed their mind has changed their vote in the poll, but I would guess some have.

I did not realize this!

 

[Arnie M]

If for no other reason than to keep any mess from happening, but yes, I feel the same way. An intruder would just stash the body, on the cold floor, uncovered. Why go through the trouble of covering a body you know will be found sooner rather than later? Makes no sense, unless you are emotionally connected to the body or you are trying to avoid a mess on the floor.

Actually , I would think if it was a kidnapping gone wrong ... the kidnappers would try their best to hide the body and the wine cellar was a good place ... but they would have stacked stuff around the body to keep it well hidden so they could still get the ransom money.

They had plenty of time ... it was not a "toss the body and run" situation

Furthermore ... if it was a failed kidnapping ... they would never have written or left the ransom note .... they would try their best to divert attention from themselves (foreign faction) and make it not look like an intruder- kidnapping ...

Furthermore ... an intruder-kidnapper would clearly have known the Ramsey's were upstairs sound asleep .... thus would never have written ... "I advise you to be rested" ... in the ransom note.

 

[Sandstorm]

What do any of you think of Steve Thomas' theory:

ST proposes that PR is responsible for the accidental head bash, then the intended cord strangle, followed by the complete staging of JBR's body as well as the RN.

AND while Patsy was up all night tending to THAT business JR was asleep and had NO idea of the night's horrendous events.

Included in ST's theory:
JR does not know that JBR is dead until he discovers her during his first visit to the basement, but he does not disclose the discovery until later when he visits the basement a second time with FW at which point JR goes straight to JBR's body.

Personally, I dont see this as plausible as Kolar's theory that PR and JR covered for BR because BR is responsible for JBR's death, but the parents are responsible for the staging.

It makes more sense to me that the parents would cover for their child rather than for each other. However, ST believes that JR covered for his wife and that Burke is not involved in any way.

I am very interested to hear any info on ST's theory - maybe after all these years, he has changed his mind....???

 

[Estelle]

What do any of you think of Steve Thomas' theory:

ST proposes that PR is responsible for the accidental head bash, then the intended cord strangle, followed by the complete staging of JBR's body as well as the RN.

AND while Patsy was up all night tending to THAT business JR was asleep and had NO idea of the night's horrendous events.

Included in ST's theory:
JR does not know that JBR is dead until he discovers her during his first visit to the basement, but he does not disclose the discovery until later when he visits the basement a second time with FW at which point JR goes straight to JBR's body.

Personally, I dont see this as plausible as Kolar's theory that PR and JR covered for BR because BR is responsible for JBR's death, but the parents are responsible for the staging.

It makes more sense to me that the parents would cover for their child rather than for each other. However, ST believes that JR covered for his wife and that Burke is not involved in any way.

I am very interested to hear any info on ST's theory - maybe after all these years, he has changed his mind....???

I believe in ST's theory that BR was NOT involved.