Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Linda7NJ]

All I know for is..... is that a Ramsey did it. I can make a compelling argument fit each one of them and in combinations. I still can't say for certain who had been molesting her...could have been any one of them.

 

[celticthyme]

There are a few things I keep coming back to, and among these are the fact that not one of the family members had any kind of normal reaction to the death of Jon Benet. There was a tortured and dead 6 year old child in their basement. None of them expressed shock and/ or grief. Their behavior alone makes them look guilty. I was of the opinion that it was Patsy who actually killed her, but with the Kolar information, I think it was likely Burke responsible for the head bash. and possibly the vaginal damage. Perhaps their "playing doctor games" began to escalate, especially since they were home on Christmas break. There were some very sick dynamics in that family, and Jon Benet seemed to be at the vortex. The sexualization of her in the many shows, seemed to ramp up as time went on. In a mere 3 years she went from being an innocent little girl, to a vamp. She did not instigate this, but Patsy did.

 

[DeeDee249]

There are a few things I keep coming back to, and among these are the fact that not one of the family members had any kind of normal reaction to the death of Jon Benet. There was a tortured and dead 6 year old child in their basement. None of them expressed shock and/ or grief. Their behavior alone makes them look guilty. I was of the opinion that it was Patsy who actually killed her, but with the Kolar information, I think it was likely Burke responsible for the head bash. and possibly the vaginal damage. Perhaps their "playing doctor games" began to escalate, especially since they were home on Christmas break. There were some very sick dynamics in that family, and Jon Benet seemed to be at the vortex. The sexualization of her in the many shows, seemed to ramp up as time went on. In a mere 3 years she went from being an innocent little girl, to a vamp. She did not instigate this, but Patsy did.

Excellent post! I totally agree.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I started out as PDI, influenced heavily by her public demeanor, actions that morning, and later ST's book. Gradually, however, I leaned towards BDI. I think the revelations in Kolar's book buttress this belief.

It should be obvious to everyone at this point that there was something exceedingly wrong in that family. The new info about smeared feces just affirms this. We know that Social Services had some sort of previous history with Burke. We also know he had hit JBR with a golf club. It's very likely that he was jealous of the overt attention JBR received. Burke's unusual comments when interviewed by the psychiatrist ("going on with my life," no emotion displayed, putting something on his head and making noises when a certain question was asked, etc.) also reinforce my view that he was not a "normal" child by even the broadest definition.

Kolar's book may possibly light the way to a true understanding of what really happened that night. I haven't read the book yet- does he address the incredible oddity of there being only a couple of photos taken Christmas day, and no videotape of the children? Whatever that means, I've always felt it's significant and may strongly indicate that JBR's death wasn't entirely spontaneous. There seems to have been existing problems in that household.

What I do find strange, in light of my BDI theory, is how "normal" the adult Burke appears to be. A clearly troubled child, seemingly involved in the death of his sister in some way, and years later he seems well adjusted, with friends, girlfriends, social life, etc. That's hard to explain.

That golf club thing -

24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was
25 mention while we are talking about that, there
0294
1 was mention of a situation where he apparently
2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us
5 about that?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was
8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
9 it was our first summer there, how young they
10 were there. sbm
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I
14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there
15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and
16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her
17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody
18 murder.

He was just a baby! They both were. His sister toddled up behind him as he was taking a swing...it's not this vindictive intentional sibling bashing everyone seems to think.

 

[qtc]

There are a few things I keep coming back to, and among these are the fact that not one of the family members had any kind of normal reaction to the death of Jon Benet. There was a tortured and dead 6 year old child in their basement. None of them expressed shock and/ or grief. Their behavior alone makes them look guilty. I was of the opinion that it was Patsy who actually killed her, but with the Kolar information, I think it was likely Burke responsible for the head bash. and possibly the vaginal damage. Perhaps their "playing doctor games" began to escalate, especially since they were home on Christmas break. There were some very sick dynamics in that family, and Jon Benet seemed to be at the vortex. The sexualization of her in the many shows, seemed to ramp up as time went on. In a mere 3 years she went from being an innocent little girl, to a vamp. She did not instigate this, but Patsy did.

I totally agree with this. The way Burke acted, the comments that John made, and him wanting to leave that day! The lack of cooperation from both John and Patsy. Just doesnt make any logical sense.

 

[UKGuy]

That golf club thing -

24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was
25 mention while we are talking about that, there
0294
1 was mention of a situation where he apparently
2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us
5 about that?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was
8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
9 it was our first summer there, how young they
10 were there. sbm
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I
14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there
15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and
16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her
17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody
18 murder.

He was just a baby! They both were. His sister toddled up behind him as he was taking a swing...it's not this vindictive intentional sibling bashing everyone seems to think.

SapphireSteel,
Sure, and once we were all a baby! But compare the R's reaction here to that on the night of her head injury, whats different, you decide?


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
Sure, and once we were all a baby! But compare the R's reaction here to that on the night of her head injury, whats different, you decide?


.

Sorry just correcting a fallacy re Burke hitting his sister.

I absolutely believe RDI, no doubt in my mind. Just not Burke...although I do think he needs to speak out now, to get justice for JBR.

I think the dynamics of that family were very, very scary.

:moo:

 

[SapphireSteel]

There are a few things I keep coming back to, and among these are the fact that not one of the family members had any kind of normal reaction to the death of Jon Benet. There was a tortured and dead 6 year old child in their basement. None of them expressed shock and/ or grief. Their behavior alone makes them look guilty. I was of the opinion that it was Patsy who actually killed her, but with the Kolar information, I think it was likely Burke responsible for the head bash. and possibly the vaginal damage. Perhaps their "playing doctor games" began to escalate, especially since they were home on Christmas break. There were some very sick dynamics in that family, and Jon Benet seemed to be at the vortex. The sexualization of her in the many shows, seemed to ramp up as time went on. In a mere 3 years she went from being an innocent little girl, to a vamp. She did not instigate this, but Patsy did.

This is the info I'm missing.

What did Kolar say that changed your mind?

tia.

 

[UKGuy]

Sorry just correcting a fallacy re Burke hitting his sister.

I absolutely believe RDI, no doubt in my mind. Just not Burke...although I do think he needs to speak out now, to get justice for JBR.

I think the dynamics of that family were very, very scary.

:moo:

SapphireSteel,
Sure and its not a fallacy, it actually happened, there is no controversy, even Patsy agrees!


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
Sure and its not a fallacy, it actually happened, there is no controversy, even Patsy agrees!


.

It happened, but many years earlier when both children were babies. People seem to believe Burke was jealous of his sister, using the fact that he hit her with a golf club as an example, however this was an every day accident by a toddler with (obviously) inattentive parents, not a vengeful swipe as is being portrayed. Burke loved his sister.

That is what I mean by fallacious.

:moo:

 

[dodie20]

That golf club thing -

24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was
25 mention while we are talking about that, there
0294
1 was mention of a situation where he apparently
2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us
5 about that?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was
8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
9 it was our first summer there, how young they
10 were there. sbm
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I
14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there
15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and
16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her
17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody
18 murder.

He was just a baby! They both were. His sister toddled up behind him as he was taking a swing...it's not this vindictive intentional sibling bashing everyone seems to think.

Well, if BR was a little guy, 2 or 3, how old was JBR, who by the way, was walking? JBR was 6 when she died, and BR was almost 10, so they were between 3 and 4 years apart. PR's math doesn't add up. MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Well, if BR was a little guy, 2 or 3, how old was JBR, who by the way, was walking? JBR was 6 when she died, and BR was almost 10, so they were between 3 and 4 years apart. PR's math doesn't add up. MOO

She could have been walking at 9 months?

Just saying, this is where the "hitting with the golf club" thing came from...the sort of thing that could've happened with my kids when they were little, if you weren't watching them.

:moo:

 

[dodie20]

JonBenet wasn't even born, when BR was 2, and she would have been an infant when he was 3, almost 4, and most definately not capable of walking up behind him. Surely PR knew how many years apart her 2 kids were? So, IMO, she was trying to minimize this situation. MOO.

 

[txsvicki]

Burke would have been playing nintendo and playing with his new toys that night instead of practicing golf. I keep goin g back to how burke tried to act like his dad (imo) or at least a man when questioned and saying that he knew what happened. Plus how both kids had toileting troubles. Jonbenet was said to be too friendly and flirty and burke detached behavior., If burke didn't do it then he sure seems to have seen and heard something resulting in them getting him away from the house and cops then change s ome stories when finally questioned months later.

 

[RedWing7]

"Hon we need em" seems key to me...

Hmmm, you know all these years and I didn't realize that was what Patsy was saying at the beginning of the 911 call. Thanks Sandover.

And she screamed bloody murder.

What an odd choice of words.

I have flip flopped over the years as to who killed JonBenet. Started with Burke, then John, then Patsy, even dabbled into an intruder may have done it. I tried to keep an open mind and not put on my blinders. I am now 100% sure in my mind that a RDI. Patsy wrote the note IMO. If it was an accident it had to be accompanied by something so horrific that they just couldn't call for an ambulance.

Hats off to everyone here. We invest a lot of our own time into something we may never have an answer to. Everyone just wants justice for JonBenet. I wonder what John and Burke are doing right now?

 

[Chrishope]

DeeDee249,
The authorities might not be able to consider him as a suspect, but in the court of public opinion, their rules do not matter.

I think its pretty obvious all three Ramsey's participated in the staging and coverup.

One of John, Patsy, or Burke initially sexually assaulted JonBenet.

Assuming its usually males who do this, and that the acute and chronic abuse was digital, I reckon this slims the suspects down to one?

If you disagree then its the other male.

And of course, just for gender balance, in case Patsy was a crazy cookie, she too may have sexually assaulted JonBenet etc. This I think is less likely. Other variations on PDI abound, so take your choice, e.g. too many meds, bedwetting, bed-soiling, Mother-Daughter argument over clothing etc.

The argument that John crafted the RN without Patsy's knowledge, and had a master plan which included dumping JonBenet, relocating Burke and Patsy, before collecting the ransom money, is a speculative scenario, which in many parts is in conflict with the known forensic evidence.

Patsy can be placed at the crime-scene wearing the same clothes she wore the night before. Fibers from her jacket are embedded into the knotting on the ligature/paintbrush-handle garrote, and are attached to the sticky side of the duct tape found on JonBenet. Thats two different physical locations, which I reckon rules out chance. Then there is Patsy's own testimony that she never visited the wine-cellar the night before or the following morning!

If John had actually dumped JonBenet outdoors and collected the cash, he would have been suspect number one, and would most likely have been arrested ASAP. And once JonBenet was found, what was John going say? That because they wrapped her in blanket they never meant to kill her? And of course the media would be screaming Kidnapped girl found dead, e.g. not abducted, just sexually assaulted and dumped. And in those kind of cases the Number One suspect is always the father, check google for cases.

Then of course there is the planning anomally. John hatches his abduction plan, executes it, then camly leaves Patsy to her own devices. Knowing full well that one of Patsy's options is to dial 911. Somehow I think not!


.

Patsy can be placed at the crime-scene wearing the same clothes she wore the night before. Fibers from her jacket are embedded into the knotting on the ligature/paintbrush-handle garrote, and are attached to the sticky side of the duct tape found on JonBenet. Thats two different physical locations, which I reckon rules out chance. Then there is Patsy's own testimony that she never visited the wine-cellar the night before or the following morning!

PR can only be placed at the crime scene in the sense that the entire house, and it's yard is a crime scene. In a previous reply I'd said wearing the same clothes was suspicious. Upon further reflection and reading dogG's blog, I have to change my opinion. If PR was involved why would she risk being seen in the same clothes - that naturally makes everyone assume she was up all night doing the criminal acts (either murder and staging, or at least staging)
There was no deadline for making the 911 call. She could easily have showered and changed, then made the call at say 6:30.

JR was the one who showered in the morning.

As an aside, and as proof of nothing at all, I always shower before going to bed. Why go to bed dirty then clean yourself in the morning? But perhaps my habits are atypical?

Turning to the fiber "evidence". The paint tote was normally kept upstairs. LHP said that she took it downstairs on the 22nd, the day before the Ramsey's party.

"Patsy started taking a painting class, and JonBenet drew a lot with crayons and MARKERS. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenet painted on a card table in the butler's kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement. "I don't want to see it." On the day of the Ramseys' Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs."

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

So there is no mystery as to why there are fibers in the paint tote. It's PR's and was often kept on the first floor of the house. PR sometimes wore her red jacket in the house. PR says she never wore the jacket when painting, which would make sense, but she didn't say she never handled the tote when wearing the red jacket.

I wonder if she may have carried it back and forth to her painting class? And if so, might she have worn the jacket on the way to class - taking it off when she began to paint? As far as I can tell the police had never asked her about this.

So, PR's tote has PRs fibers which can be explained as innocent transfer. The tote is taken to the basement on the 22nd, by the housekeeper. On the 25 the killer uses the paintbrush, from the tote, to fashion a "garrotte". Pawing through the tote he gets the red fibers on him, and transfers them to the garrotte, blanket, and tape.

So her statement that she didn't visit the WC that night or the next morning is perfectly consistent with the evidence.

 

[otg]

24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was
25 mention while we are talking about that, there
0294
1 was mention of a situation where he apparently
2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us
5 about that?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was
8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
9 it was our first summer there, how young they
10 were there. sbm
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I
14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there
15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and
16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her
17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody
18 murder.

Just a note on the age here... I didn't figure it out -- so I'm not taking credit -- the mistake was made in the transcription. It should read:

6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, she was
8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
9 it was our first summer there, how young they
10 were there.

.

 

[claudicici]

PR can only be placed at the crime scene in the sense that the entire house, and it's yard is a crime scene. In a previous reply I'd said wearing the same clothes was suspicious. Upon further reflection and reading dogG's blog, I have to change my opinion. If PR was involved why would she risk being seen in the same clothes - that naturally makes everyone assume she was up all night doing the criminal acts (either murder and staging, or at least staging)
There was no deadline for making the 911 call. She could easily have showered and changed, then made the call at say 6:30.

JR was the one who showered in the morning.

As an aside, and as proof of nothing at all, I always shower before going to bed. Why go to bed dirty then clean yourself in the morning? But perhaps my habits are atypical?

Turning to the fiber "evidence". The paint tote was normally kept upstairs. LHP said that she took it downstairs on the 22nd, the day before the Ramsey's party.

"Patsy started taking a painting class, and JonBenet drew a lot with crayons and MARKERS. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenet painted on a card table in the butler's kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement. "I don't want to see it." On the day of the Ramseys' Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs."

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

So there is no mystery as to why there are fibers in the paint tote. It's PR's and was often kept on the first floor of the house. PR sometimes wore her red jacket in the house. PR says she never wore the jacket when painting, which would make sense, but she didn't say she never handled the tote when wearing the red jacket.

I wonder if she may have carried it back and forth to her painting class? And if so, might she have worn the jacket on the way to class - taking it off when she began to paint? As far as I can tell the police had never asked her about this.

So, PR's tote has PRs fibers which can be explained as innocent transfer. The tote is taken to the basement on the 22nd, by the housekeeper. On the 25 the killer uses the paintbrush, from the tote, to fashion a "garrotte". Pawing through the tote he gets the red fibers on him, and transfers them to the garrotte, blanket, and tape.

So her statement that she didn't visit the WC that night or the next morning is perfectly consistent with the evidence.

It's possible.But why was she acting sooo suspicious and so full of lies during the police interview when it came to that jacket? First she claimed she didn't wear it at all until they showed her PICTURES of herself wearing it to the party....and then she claimed it "may" have been PW'S similar jacket that she "may" have borrowed....:banghead:

 

[Chrishope]

It's possible.But why was she acting sooo suspicious and so full of lies during the police interview when it came to that jacket? First she claimed she didn't wear it at all until they showed her PICTURES of herself wearing it to the party....and then she claimed it "may" have been PW'S similar jacket that she "may" have borrowed....:banghead:

16 Q. You were shown, I believe,
17 photographs that were taken -- and this is
18 during your '98 interview -- photographs that
19 were taken at the White's house Christmas
20 night at dinner. In that you are wearing a
21 red coat, kind of a wool, wool jacket. Do
22 you recall seeing that?
23 A. It is kind of a black and red
24 and gray fleece.
25 Q. Cut more like a blazer than --
0154
1 A. Like a peacoat.
2 MR. WOOD: Well, the picture is
3 the picture, isn't it?
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Right, like a
5 peacoat. I just want to make sure we are
6 talking about the same thing. Do you
7 remember that jacket?
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
9 Q. I would like you to give us a
10 little background on that coat, and again I
11 am not going to hold you to days of the
12 week, but do you recall, first of all, where
13 you purchased it?
14 A. Well, Priscilla had had one like
15 it that I admired. And she told me, I
16 believe she told me she got hers at EMS.
17 So I went there to look. And they didn't
18 have one or I didn't want to get one exactly
19 like hers. So I think I got that one at
20 Marshals in Boulder.
21 Q. Do you recall what year you
22 purchased it?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Let's -- I can understand that.
25 Now I am going to -- we will take a time
0155
1 frame. Was it a fairly, by your
2 recollection, was it a fairly recent purchase
3 that you had or was this a coat you'd had
4 for some period of time prior -- and, of
5 course, I am using it as the date of
6 JonBenet's murder.
7 A. Well, I can't remember. I am
8 sure I bought it in -- as it was getting
9 colder. So it was either probably fall of
10 '96 or '95.
11 Q. That, the coat that you wore the
12 night to the Whites, was it something that
13 was -- I mean, the primary color is red.
14 MR. WOOD: Well, don't fight over
15 -- excuse me, Patsy. Don't you have a
16 picture?
17 MR. LEVIN: I don't have a
18 picture with me.
19 MR. WOOD: Why characterize it.
20 It is what it is.
21 THE WITNESS: There is a picture.
22 MR. WOOD: It is in the picture.
23 Let's look at that.
24 MR. LEVIN: Just to expedite
25 things, because I am not fighting over the
0156
1 color, what I want to know is --
2 MR. WOOD: I think she said it
3 was red and black and gray.
4 THE WITNESS: A red and black and
5 gray check.
6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What I am, what
7 I am interested in is, I am certainly not
8 going to debate concentration of colors. It
9 is irrelevant. What I am interested in, is
10 it something that you wore exclusively during
11 the Christmas season or is this a coat that
12 you wore anytime it was appropriate for the
13 weather?
14 A. Anytime it was appropriate.
15 Q. So it is not like a special
16 Christmassy type, type of Christmas sweater,
17 I know you talked about Christmas?
18 A. (Witness shook head negatively).


I don't see where she talks about maybe borrowing it. Unless it's in a different interview. What I quoted above is from the 08/00 interview. She says PW had one like it.

I'll try to go through the earlier interviews to see if there is a conflicting statement.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Just a note on the age here... I didn't figure it out -- so I'm not taking credit -- the mistake was made in the transcription. It should read:
.

As a police dictaphone transcriber in a previous life, I can assure you that it would have been transcribed correctly.

It would have been PR who made the mistake in speech, NOT the transcriber. Trust me on this. Sometimes you have to go over and over a word to hear it properly, even get your co-workers in on the act to get it right.

Note every grunt is transcribed as it was heard...so is every word.

It is not the easiest job in the world, trust me.

:moo: