Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[cynic]

yw.

i've tried to google what ST says about the card in his book... but cannot find the quote. can you post what exactly he said? maybe then we can try to figure out an answer to your question...

Detectives going through the house noted cobwebs in the tracks of various windows and found some windows painted closed. Dust and debris had gathered on other sills, giving no indication of forced entry. Some curious pry marks were found on a back door, but more and more, except for the broken window in the basement, it looked as though the big house had been locked up tight the night before.

A New International Version Study Bible was photographed on the desk of John Ramsey, open to the pages of Psalms 35 and 36. There was no way to know it at the time, but those verses were to play a critical role in the unfolding case. Beside the Bible was a greeting card JonBenét had made for her father, on which she had printed, “The best gift I can give is me.”

While the house search went on, other cops fanned out to canvass the neighborhood and conduct more interviews. A resident directly to the south reported that the light was off in the southeast corner sunroom of the Ramsey home and thought that odd because it was the only time she was aware in the past few years that it did not burn all night. A neighbor to the north would say that the butler kitchen lights were on around midnight and considered that unusual since it was the first time he had noticed that light being on in the Ramsey home. A third neighbor, to the west, said that her dogs, who barked at anyone walking in the alley, just as they did when the police officer came to question her, made no noise Wednesday night. It was impossible to make a 100 percent sweep because some people were away on holiday vacations, other houses had caretakers, and some just stood empty.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 48 - 49

 

[midwest mama]

yw.

i've tried to google what ST says about the card in his book... but cannot find the quote. can you post what exactly he said? maybe then we can try to figure out an answer to your question...

It comes from the hard copy edition, page 44 towards the bottom. Mr. Thomas is listing things that were taken by the police when they went into the house with a search warrant. The reference about the card was made when it was written that there was a police photograph taken of an NIV version of the Bible on JR's desk, open to the pages of Psalm 35 and 36, and beside the Bible was the greeting card from JB to her father, "on which she had printed, "The best gift I can give is me."

Mr. Thomas said those 2 Psalms were to play a critical role in the unfolding case. These Psalms call upon God to deal with enemies, and they motivate others to take a strong stand against sin and evil. They remind of God's promise to bring judgement on unrepentant sinners, and that when Christ returns the wicked will be punished. If Patsy made it a point to comment about her own card from JB in the newspaper interview, maybe she was doing so to drop a reference clue that someone might remember JR's card being beside those Psalms?

Since Patsy was the "religious" one of the two, was she setting up JR's Bible and the card to point directly to him? And yet, it's hard to believe she wouldn't have ratted him out from the very beginning if she knew he had been JB's molester/killer, unless she only SUSPECTED he was. IIRC, the dictionary in JR's office was also open to "incest".

I have posted before about my thoughts on JR telling Patsy that Burke had harmed JB, thinking Patsy would have believed him because of the dysfunction that has recently been brought to light by Kolar.

I wonder if Patsy awakened to discover the already dead JB, it was her scream that was heard, and JR then had Patsy as his crime partner for the cover-up. I previously thought maybe Burke innocently saw the crime because he heard noise and went to investigate, and JR managed to do major damage control on Burke, but now I wonder if JR just went ahead and "threw him under the bus" as far as just telling Patsy it was Burke. Patsy would never have been able to know for sure then, would she?

JR would have convinced Patsy in just a few minutes that this was something their family could never survive if it went public that it was Burke who did all this to JB. Patsy surely wouldn't have badgered Burke herself, and she would have protected him as fiercely as she always did to the public. Burke would have had no way of knowing his father had accused him to his mother. JR would have been Mr. Good Dad - giving the boy his own lawyer, all the psychological help he needed, best of education, etc. and on and on. And with Patsy gone, JR could have even been prepared to cross-point at her if need be, should Burke ever challenge JR.

So, if JR molested/killed JBR, blamed Burke to enlist Patsy as a crime partner, the fake ransome note and then making the 911 call (and even the enhanced comments would fit) would have made sense, along with Patsy calling her friends in for support, including calling Dr. Bueff, since she needed him to help cover for Burke. Both JR and Patsy would have wanted Burke out of the house ASAP so he wouldn't be there when the body was found, or so police would not be able to 'question' him. JR might have even had FW convinced for a while, until FW had enough time to put it all together. Especially since he was able to talk personally to Burke. I can even understand the Fernies and Stines reactions using this theory.

 

[midwest mama]

Just a P.S.: YES, if JR was little JB's molester/killer, he would have thrown Burke under the bus in a heartbeat. I think his daughter Beth's death had a great deal to do with who JR really was at the time of JB's death. And I think Detective Arndt had him pegged.

 

[redheadedgal]

i think ST was just attempting to set the scene by mentioning/describing the bible and jonbenet's card... i think he saw a loving, religious family... and i'm certain it wasn't lost on him that whatever occurred that night in the home contradicted the warm fuzzies one would feel -and assume were abundant in the home- reading jonbenet's card to her dad...

i don't believe the bible was staged... the dictionary? interesting to say the least... (but again i must state i don't believe JR was molesting his daughter)

the psalms gave a source/example of the SBTC reference in the ransom note and iirc, this is what ST was alluding to with his remark about a "critical role" ... people tried and tried to make the acronym "fit" some other info... and if you look at psalm 35, you'll see the acronym backward in the first verse... i have no idea whether the author of the note obtained the idea for the SBTC from the bible or not...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+35-36%2CActs+25&version=NIV

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Hi Everyone, I am a new poster (but not reader) to WS. I lived all but the past three years of my life in Colorado, and spent 5 years in Boulder in the same general area as the Ramseys. When JonBenet was murdered, I was in Florida on vacation with some college friends. When I returned to Boulder and heard about the murder I just felt totally haunted by the case, right from the very first. I could not get the image of that little girl dead on her basement floor out of my mind. I read everything I could lay my hands on about the case. I came to the conclusion then that it was JR who molested and murdered her. I think it was about 2 years ago that I re-examined the case and finally read the Ramesy's own book "The Death of Innocence". There was a lot of hullabaloo at that time about the touch DNA, and I began thinking maybe it really was an intruder who committed the murder/sexual abuse.
Then I started reading the posts here at WS about 4 months ago or so and I heard about Kolars book. I ordered the book and at great personal expense (shipping to Israel from the States is expensive) I finally recieved it and read it cover-to-cover in one day. Many people have expressed disappointment with the book, but I found it to be very enlightening. I now am utterly convinced it was BDI. All of the pieces fall into place now.
That's my two cents worth!

 

[azwriter]

Hi Everyone, I am a new poster (but not reader) to WS. I lived all but the past three years of my life in Colorado, and spent 5 years in Boulder in the same general area as the Ramseys. When JonBenet was murdered, I was in Florida on vacation with some college friends. When I returned to Boulder and heard about the murder I just felt totally haunted by the case, right from the very first. I could not get the image of that little girl dead on her basement floor out of my mind. I read everything I could lay my hands on about the case. I came to the conclusion then that it was JR who molested and murdered her. I think it was about 2 years ago that I re-examined the case and finally read the Ramesy's own book "The Death of Innocence". There was a lot of hullabaloo at that time about the touch DNA, and I began thinking maybe it really was an intruder who committed the murder/sexual abuse.
Then I started reading the posts here at WS about 4 months ago or so and I heard about Kolars book. I ordered the book and at great personal expense (shipping to Israel from the States is expensive) I finally recieved it and read it cover-to-cover in one day. Many people have expressed disappointment with the book, but I found it to be very enlightening. I now am utterly convinced it was BDI. All of the pieces fall into place now.
That's my two cents worth!

Welcome. Glad to have you aboard. I too have been a BDI from early on. To me all signs point to a cover-up and I believe the two parents would not cover for each other but certainly for their son. Patsy especially could not bear being the mother of child who accidently killed his sister. She was all about image.

Keep posting.

 

[midwest mama]

Welcome. Glad to have you aboard. I too have been a BDI from early on. To me all signs point to a cover-up and I believe the two parents would not cover for each other but certainly for their son. Patsy especially could not bear being the mother of child who accidently killed his sister. She was all about image.

Keep posting.

Ditto Rashi: :wagon:

Looking at the dysfunction that Burke and JB both displayed, along with the information Kolar gave us, it IS tempting to look at a BDI theory. But the fiber evidence in the genital area and underwear of JB connected to JR's clothing keeps bringing me back to JR.

Burke was reported to have displayed a form of autism at that time of his life and a gardener's opinion of Burke was that he was not socially pleasant. Burke was referred to by someone also, IIRC, as a 'funny duck'. I believe both of his parents guarded him carefully, but would have thought him capable of harming JB, which is why JR could have easily talked Patsy into thinking Burke was responsible. Patsy would have done whatever JR orchestrated to take the suspicion off of Burke, and JR's business prowess makes me believe he had all the skill he needed. Lack of any reported fiber evidence connected to Burke (notice I said "reported" - some may be withheld), and the fact that BPD chased after JMK looking for DNA, tells me they must not see Burke connected forensically.

The blow to JB's head and the heinous strangling required rage and a psychopathic action. And if BR was the perpetrator, I cannot help but think he will come un-sprung again at some time in the future.

 

[Tadpole12]

Kolar took care to point out behaviors of JR's, maybe thinking that emphasis would cause us to take a closer look at JR, since the fiber evidence is fact that speaks clearly?

I took Cyril Wecht's book along on vacation recently, and am more convinced than ever before that this crime was a sexually motivated homicide, and that puts Patsy on the back-burner for me unless she was led to rage upon discovery of JB and her molester.

And this last week, some info in Steve Thomas' book jumped out at me. There was a Christmas card found on JR's desk made by JB that said, "The best Christmas gift I can give you is me." Eeeewwwwww! :what:

heyya midwest mama,

Does CW include PR as a possible perp, in the book?

I was reading the FFJ thread on the Globe article of December 25, 2006

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=137463&postcount=131"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - New Globe is Out!! Top Forensic Expert- Mom Did it![/ame]

"Typically, when I see sexual choking deaths, the perpetrator is male. But
there have been exceptions. Since no semen was found, there's nothing to
this murder that would exclude Patsy Ramsey as the killer." -CW


and wondered if he made the same inclusion within his book?

 

[SapphireSteel]

God all these rocket scientists making money off the glaringly obvious.

It would be funny if it wasn't all about one murdered little girl.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

heyya midwest mama,

Does CW include PR as a possible perp, in the book?

I was reading the FFJ thread on the Globe article of December 25, 2006

Forums For Justice - View Single Post - New Globe is Out!! Top Forensic Expert- Mom Did it!

"Typically, when I see sexual choking deaths, the perpetrator is male. But
there have been exceptions. Since no semen was found, there's nothing to
this murder that would exclude Patsy Ramsey as the killer." -CW


and wondered if he made the same inclusion within his book?

There certainly are exceptions - look at the case of Sandra Cantu. Like Midwest Mama I struggle with why these two parents would cover for each other though, no matter which one was responsible. And her rationale on why PR may have become involved in the cover up is certainly plausible. From what I've seen and read, JR could very well have been a controlling force in that family.

I cannot rationalize why they would stage such a grotesque sexual scene if BR was the one that smashed JBR over the head. It makes absolutely no sense to me. And I cannot believe that a nine year old would be able to stage something like that, so I'm left with one of the parents as the guilty party. My money is on John Ramsey.

 

[deca]

A thought occurred to me today that really threw me. I had been reading somewhere a week or two ago about a father-son "team" (urgh!). The father was into molesting girls and brought his son into the "game" as well. JR could have placed enough of the blame onto BR to get PR to cover and be quiet about it. But that would explain some of the other strange things/attitudes in the case.

 

[Linda7NJ]

A thought occurred to me today that really threw me. I had been reading somewhere a week or two ago about a father-son "team" (urgh!). The father was into molesting girls and brought his son into the "game" as well. JR could have placed enough of the blame onto BR to get PR to cover and be quiet about it. But that would explain some of the other strange things/attitudes in the case.

What you describe is actually very common.

Would sure explain a lot!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Thanks so much for the warm welcome, it means so much to me. After reading everyone's ideas for the last few months I have come to really respect the intelligent and thoughtful theories posted here at WS.
Having said that, I have to respectfully disagree with some of you who see the fiber evidence as proof that JR or PR abused JB or were themselves the murderers. I think the story that the evidence tells is that after BR raped and bashed his sister the two parents worked in a kind of frenzied tandem to cover up the crime. Patsy no doubt participated in the garroting and John wiped the girl's pubic region with his shirt, and maybe stowed it away in the golf bag. It could be that in the end Patsy was the one to strangle JB and therefore was technically the murderer. I believe the head bash would have proven to be fatal and was done by Burke. Patsy would never have done a thing to harm JB if she hadn't felt that it was the only way to save her only remaining child. She was temporarily insane, in my opinion. MOO

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks so much for the warm welcome, it means so much to me. After reading everyone's ideas for the last few months I have come to really respect the intelligent and thoughtful theories posted here at WS.
Having said that, I have to respectfully disagree with some of you who see the fiber evidence as proof that JR or PR abused JB or were themselves the murderers. I think the story that the evidence tells is that after BR raped and bashed his sister the two parents worked in a kind of frenzied tandem to cover up the crime. Patsy no doubt participated in the garroting and John wiped the girl's pubic region with his shirt, and maybe stowed it away in the golf bag. It could be that in the end Patsy was the one to strangle JB and therefore was technically the murderer. I believe the head bash would have proven to be fatal and was done by Burke. Patsy would never have done a thing to harm JB if she hadn't felt that it was the only way to save her only remaining child. She was temporarily insane, in my opinion. MOO

I lean towards BDI myself, with parents staging the coverup, and I agree that the presence of the parents' fibers does not mean they committed the murder, but does implicate them in the coverup.
However, as far as Patsy's "temporary insanity" it could as easily been the cause of her killing her daughter in a rage. She was on edge anyway, she was on antidepressants (Klonopin was found in the medicine cabinet, JR admitted Patsy was taking meds). She may have been on over-the-counter sleep meds too- ever read those side effects? You're better off staying awake! Patsy was known to have a bad temper sometimes and could fly off the handle. The combination of her medications and any wine or alcohol she may have had that day at the party could have caused her to snap.

 

[midwest mama]

DeeDee249: I totally agree both parents were involved in the coverup.
But I cannot see JR covering for Patsy, especially if she had gone off the deep end, unless he strictly wanted to preserve what he thought was his own "family" integrity. But I see JR buying whatever would have been necessary to keep Patsy off the radar, and then downplaying the crime out of the media and into the shadows.

And I can't see Patsy covering for JR, unless she was truly unbalanced - from meds or for whatever reason - and completely manageable by a super-controlling husband whom she may have even feared. There were a couple of accounts from a former housekeeper and a co-worker who said they thought JR capable of great anger. But if she would have known for sure JR harmed JB, surely she would have cleared Burke and she would have had all the drama she needed for the rest of her life, as well as financial resources, if she could have put JR away for killing her daughter.

I can understand both parents might cover for Burke. And I do know boys of his age are capable of the type of crimes that JBR suffered, but I guess I cannot believe Burke wouldn't have offered up the truth in his interviews since Asberger's patients are known to be unable to tell lies, according to some info I've read.

If JR and PR had made a call to atty's during the night to learn Burke could not be charged, that whole drama could have been totally hushed and downplayed in a heartbeat by the Ramsey team powers. There might have been some quick news about the accidental death of JB, and then the rest of it would have been quickly squelched and swept even more quickly under the carpet. The $$$ would have taken care of everything.

I also keep going back to the fact that no fiber evidence or any other known forensic evidence was connected to Burke. The Hi-Tec boot print in the wine cellar is a "maybe", but, that print has also been possibly hooked to LE or FBI. And Burke could not have carried JB into the wine cellar and laid her down, which is what is supposed, since no evidence of her being dragged there was found. So, if it was Burke's boot print, it got there because he was allowed to "observe" JB laying there, or he made it when he went down earlier in the day to get into the gifts with the torn papers.

The ransom note was directed to JR, and in the end it 'left it all up to' John to take care of. And I just have to believe Patsy wrote the note. I think Patsy was totally reliant on JR schooling her every step of the way during the cover-up, being incredibly devastated by both of her children involved in the horror of the crime. But JR managed to greet Arndt "cordially", even joking in the early hours after the police arrived. WHAT?? Patsy was a total mess, and he was not. She thought her son murdered her daughter, and had to help make it go away. JR acted as if he had just pulled off another one of his masterful negotiations.

Sorry, but his most recent book asking us all for more understanding of his survival and conquering of his suffering just pushed me over the edge on believing him capable of nearly any emotion or action that would feed his ego. I believe JR has a side to him that thinks he deserves whatever he wants, and is entitled to pursue it no matter what the cost.

And if he molested and murdered his daughter, then I only hope and pray that one day that arrow that ST talked about will hit the target.

 

[midwest mama]

heyya midwest mama,

Does CW include PR as a possible perp, in the book?

I was reading the FFJ thread on the Globe article of December 25, 2006

Forums For Justice - View Single Post - New Globe is Out!! Top Forensic Expert- Mom Did it!

"Typically, when I see sexual choking deaths, the perpetrator is male. But
there have been exceptions. Since no semen was found, there's nothing to
this murder that would exclude Patsy Ramsey as the killer." -CW


and wondered if he made the same inclusion within his book?

Here are some sentences from Chapter 34, which is the last chapter of
Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" by Wecht and Bosworth:

After Wecht eliminated the pedophile, the sexual predator, the revenge-driven kidnapper, and the small foreign faction, he was left with the two adults in that house on that night -- John and Patsy.

The questions and scenarios were almost endless. Wecht could not determine precisely which had led to the death of JonBenet Ramsey, but he could cite circumstantial evidence supporting the view that both of her parents were involved in a cover-up of the truth. And Wecht knew that many arrests and prosecutions were based solely on circumstantial evidence.

Wecht belived the evidence appeared to support charges against both John and Patsy -- one perhaps the accomplice to the other........He believed an aggressive prosecutor could establish probable cause for criminal charges and a prima facie case against John and Patsy worthy of a presentation to a jury.

Given all the circumstances, Wecht found it appropriate to call on Colorado attorney general Gale Norton or governor Roy Romer to appoint a special prosecutor -- one totally independent, certainly from outside the Denver-Boulder area and perhaps even from outside the state -- to review the massive case and come to a final determination free from political baggage and influence. If the state's officials won't act -- and Romer already had rejected a similar call from Fleet White -- perhaps the U.S. Department of Justice could find grounds for an investigation and a special prosecutor.

Seems as if CW certainly was clear on who he thought should be held accountable for JB's death, and that she deserved whatever had to be done to bring her killer to justice.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think the Universe agreed with him and gave her some justice she couldn't escape.

 

[Tadpole12]

Here are some sentences from Chapter 34, which is the last chapter of
Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" by Wecht and Bosworth:

After Wecht eliminated the pedophile, the sexual predator, the revenge-driven kidnapper, and the small foreign faction, he was left with the two adults in that house on that night -- John and Patsy.

The questions and scenarios were almost endless. Wecht could not determine precisely which had led to the death of JonBenet Ramsey, but he could cite circumstantial evidence supporting the view that both of her parents were involved in a cover-up of the truth. And Wecht knew that many arrests and prosecutions were based solely on circumstantial evidence.

Wecht belived the evidence appeared to support charges against both John and Patsy -- one perhaps the accomplice to the other........He believed an aggressive prosecutor could establish probable cause for criminal charges and a prima facie case against John and Patsy worthy of a presentation to a jury.

Given all the circumstances, Wecht found it appropriate to call on Colorado attorney general Gale Norton or governor Roy Romer to appoint a special prosecutor -- one totally independent, certainly from outside the Denver-Boulder area and perhaps even from outside the state -- to review the massive case and come to a final determination free from political baggage and influence. If the state's officials won't act -- and Romer already had rejected a similar call from Fleet White -- perhaps the U.S. Department of Justice could find grounds for an investigation and a special prosecutor.

Seems as if CW certainly was clear on who he thought should be held accountable for JB's death, and that she deserved whatever had to be done to bring her killer to justice.

Heyya midwest mama.

Thanks for posting the segment from CW.
Not sure what to make of it in relation to JK's revelations.

 

[midwest mama]

Heyya midwest mama.

Thanks for posting the segment from CW.
Not sure what to make of it in relation to JK's revelations.

Tadpole - Just a quick reminder, in spite of what JK revealed in his book, which was what he could print without fear of LW and the whole RST coming after him with swords drawn, he also did say he feels this case is still prosecuteable in spite of the odds against it.

Just the fact that there is only one person known to the public at this time who could be charged and prosecuted, I tend to think Kolar must have placed his Theory of Prosecution into Garnett's hand with a clear intent to get JR in front of a new grand jury as part of a process of prosecution.

 

[midwest mama]

The fact that Patsy was said to have been wearing the same outfit she wore to the White's when the first officer arrived at the R's on Dec 26 and being in full makeup with coifed hair, makes me wonder about something.

If she had been the one wholly responsible for handling JB, carrying her from one location to another, changing bed linens, molesting her, changing clothing, scurrying around from one location to another picking up crime articles, going up and down full flights of stairs how many times, handling a linty white blanket to wrap up her dead daughter, and take time to write the ransom note, how in the world could she have appeared in the same clothing, fresh and clean enough at 6 am?

I would think her clothes would have shown distress, had lint on them, maybe even her pant knees full of dirt/fiber from kneeling over JB. She surely would have perspired during the physicality of some of the handling of JB - causing makeup and maybe even hair to be unkempt, not to speak of other places with sweat odor. Don't know about her manicure situation, but it could have also shown fresh signs of wear from what it was in the White party photos to what it was on the 26th.

Surely she would not have been wearing her party clothes as the crime unfolded, and have them be presentable on the morning of the 26th. So she would have had to change in and out of night clothes. And she would have had to spend time cleansing, also doing fresh hair and makeup. Did the police have any Patsy night clothes on the search warrants?

But JR was not in his party clothes, and Patsy said he was in the shower at about 5:30 am. And if he had not been clean shaven when the police arrived, that surely would have been noticed by them as well as the family friends called in. That indicates a "clean up" time to me in the early a.m. For the very reasons I stated above. He would have HAD to wash away the signs of the crime.

I am not sure about reports on anything Burke was or was not wearing from the time of the party until he was taken to the White's the next morning, but surely his clothing might also have reflected signs of the crime if he had been involved in any of the physicality of it? And there was no comment reported by Fleet to the public that Burke seemed unusually unkempt when he and John went to his bedroom to round him up.

It just seems to me that the crime against JB would have been messy, dirty, and left telltale physical signs on the perpetrator that would have been certainly incriminating: Fibers, blood, hair, lint, cellar mold dust, basement carpet debris, wood splinters, etc.etc. Patsy was accusued of NOT changing out of her party clothes, but JR was obviously well cleaned up.

Thoughts?