Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[songline]

Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?


I always thought her brother killed her and Mom covered it all up.
I have never changed my mind.
I do not post on this case because I came to WS long after the case begun,
I read more on the case here at WS and for me it seems to go in circles
and I get frustrated with that.

I do not think we will ever know for sure.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It does get frustrating, for example I just cannot see why some seriously suspect a skinny little 9 year old boy is a murderer when there were at least one, probably two adult abusers in the home.

Covering up/causing/encouraging the death of a child is abusing her and we all seem to agree that's what they did. Despite this, the person most unlikely to be an instigator stands accused, even though there is ample evidence of parental involvement and zero evidence of sibling abuse.

To me, this is almost unutterably wierd, but then I haven't read Kolar's book.

:dunno:

As frustrating as it can be, you do always learn something from going round and round. Someone always throws something into the mix that makes you think more.

:cow:

 

[otg]

Garrote - what a term. I first head it used on the Larry King show when John referred to it as a "professional" garrote. What is that? Pro versus amatuer? And how does John know what made it professional.

I do believe the cord or rope or whatever it's called was put there not just to strangle her but for effect. Patsy and John used whatever they could to add outrageous outward evidence. They wanted it to look like their daughter died at the hands of a monster. They knew the world would never believe or think a parent could do that to their own child; especially these parents - rich, active in the community, well known, former beauty queen; Miss America contestant for God's sake. These types of people don't kill their own child.

AZ, it’s good to see you posting. Like you, I cringe each time I see someone using the word “garrote” like it is a well-known (or even understood) word. I doubt that more than one out of a few thousand people had even heard the word before the RST threw it out there and even added the adjective “professional” to it. And even now it is thrown around like it has been accepted by many that that is what was found around JonBenet’s neck.

While many use the word “garrote” with the word “twist”, I’ve never heard a good explanation of how that twisting of the “garrote” could physically have been done. I guess they think it had to be twisted because it only had one handle attached to it rather than two (as a real garrote would). And now it gets even more preposterous when we are trying to assign gender responsibility to it.

However, I do believe she wasn't dead when the cord was applied. JonBenet probably appeared to her parents to be dead from the head blow, which they knew happened but they had to add some other method of death in the set of staging activities they did. John and Patsy knew the police would look for a cause of death and the appearance of the cord around her neck when she was discovered (which is a strange word to use since I believe John knew right where to look) would be the most visible cause of death. But, since these parents were not trained killers, I think they didn't have time to be concerned with what the autopsy would show.

I have often wondered if the parents even knew about the head blow. Like you, I believe Burke was responsible for the death (unintentional). But I don’t believe John and Patsy would have applied a ligature around her neck to (as some have speculated) “finish her off”. I think they only tried to cover up what they knew happened or was visible.

They cleaned up the blood and removed (or other wise obscured) the object used in the sexual aspect of the incident in an attempt to hide its occurrence. I don't believe they might have committed another sexual assault to cover up prior sexual abuse. This is, IMO, beyond preposterous.

They altered the ligature (which they might have believed to be the only cause of her death) in order to make appear to be something else (and it worked like a charm -- didn’t it).

But even the coroner was unaware of the head blow until he peeled her scalp away from the skull. How much of the details of exactly what had happened would a “caught child” reveal to his parents? If the parents did know about the head blow, would they have done anything different?

Yes indeed the Ramseys took steps to control all the outward evidence LE would immediately find. The ransom "letter" as I have said before was a blueprint, a hands on piece of evidence that was to help explain why their 6-year-old daughter's dead body was in their cellar.

I think the fact that we are still discussing this case and trying to uncover the truth after all these years shows that John and Patsy did whatever they could to cover up the initial injuries caused by their son, Burke.

All of course, just my opinion.

ITA with your JMO there.

Also, AZ, I’m still hoping you’ll find the time (and the effort rewarding enough) sometime to come out of your self-imposed shell and tell us more about this:

Just wait till I come out of my shell again and explain how I know Patsy wrote the ransom "letter."
just my O

.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?


I always thought her brother killed her and Mom covered it all up.
I have never changed my mind.
I do not post on this case because I came to WS long after the case begun,
I read more on the case here at WS and for me it seems to go in circles
and I get frustrated with that.

I do not think we will ever know for sure.

Like you, I'm frustrated and ANGRY as well. First of all, I'm angry because the politics and money plays the main role in DESTRUCTION of this case, leaving the justice for JBR on the back burner.

Secondly, I'm angry because today, after 16 years, the current government officials still doesn't have the balls to expose the truth.

In regards 'I do not think we will ever know for sure' - I do agree. A lot of evidences are still locked from the public eyes. And I wouldn't mind. I don't need to know ALL! I would have patience if this case would move forward. I'll wait for resolution, for as long as it takes. But continue to do NOTHING (for 16 years!!!) - this what frustrate me!

Who do you think really killed JonBenet? - Whoever tide the rope, deprived JB to breath! And this act wasn't accidental. It was premeditated, for the staging purpose.

Everyone has their own theory based on available facts. My theory is not bulletproof:

- I believe that problems BETWEEN the children and INSIDE of children (JonBenet and Burke) went too far and for too long unnoticeable and not properly attendant by their parents, creating the dangerous situation. The jealousy, the rage, the sexual curiosity, the physical and mental pressure (and possibly some mental limitation) - all of that and more were contributed for the ticking bomb to be explode...pretty soon. I believe BR and JB had the usual sexual game that evening. And I believe the head blow was this 'ticking bomb'.

- I believe that Patsy was the main contributer in staging THEATER. Everything you'll see SCREAMS the DRAMA! I believe the 'kidnapping' idea was her idea and her execution. I believe the adding paintbrush 'garrote' was her idea and her excution. Yes, I do believe Patsy tide this rope, killing JonBenet/saving Burke.

jmo

 

[deca]

It does get frustrating, for example I just cannot see why some seriously suspect a skinny little 9 year old boy is a murderer when there were at least one, probably two adult abusers in the home.

Covering up/causing/encouraging the death of a child is abusing her and we all seem to agree that's what they did. Despite this, the person most unlikely to be an instigator stands accused, even though there is ample evidence of parental involvement and zero evidence of sibling abuse.

To me, this is almost unutterably wierd, but then I haven't read Kolar's book.

:dunno:

As frustrating as it can be, you do always learn something from going round and round. Someone always throws something into the mix that makes you think more.

:cow:

I am not sure where I stand but there is a main reason under the BDI category for me: both parents involved in coverup. Why both? Why wouldn't one adult turn the other one in for the murder of their child? Then they could be the "hero" that went after justice and they wouldn't have had to desecrate their child's body.

As far as the possibility of BDI: I am close to someone who was sexually abused by a boy who was 10. Do I think B was capable? Why not. There is no evidence to point to it, but it would explain the strange behavior in that household. JMO

 

[Nvgirl]

Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?


I always thought her brother killed her and Mom covered it all up.
I have never changed my mind.
I do not post on this case because I came to WS long after the case begun,
I read more on the case here at WS and for me it seems to go in circles
and I get frustrated with that.

I do not think we will ever know for sure.

I dont think the brother did, to complex for a little wimpy looking kid. And they usually can get a child to break. With all my heart I really dont think Patsey did either. I think she loved her daughter and yeah loved to show her off. Big deal. I just cant see her writting this long crazy letter. I dont think John did either, already losing a daughter i just cant see him tossing this daughter around like a ragdoll and murdering her. I think it was prof plum with the candlestick. No i really believe that it someone who hated john and punishing him. And he/they did a good job. It might have been hired out so it was kind of sloppy, undecided etc..I cant find the link right now but the small DNA they did find inthe panties was the same dna they found on the bottoms. This is a facinating and eeri story that will forever haunt us. But i dont think the should of stopped there. I think they should have pulled records to all business men that hated john, they might have found more links. Rest in peace little one :,-(

 

[UKGuy]

Garrote - what a term. I first head it used on the Larry King show when John referred to it as a "professional" garrote. What is that? Pro versus amatuer? And how does John know what made it professional.

I do believe the cord or rope or whatever it's called was put there not just to strangle her but for effect. Patsy and John used whatever they could to add outrageous outward evidence. They wanted it to look like their daughter died at the hands of a monster. They knew the world would never believe or think a parent could do that to their own child; especially these parents - rich, active in the community, well known, former beauty queen; Miss America contestant for God's sake. These types of people don't kill their own child.

However, I do believe she wasn't dead when the cord was applied. JonBenet probably appeared to her parents to be dead from the head blow, which they knew happened but they had to add some other method of death in the set of staging activities they did. John and Patsy knew the police would look for a cause of death and the appearance of the cord around her neck when she was discovered (which is a strange word to use since I believe John knew right where to look) would be the most visible cause of death. But, since these parents were not trained killers, I think they didn't have time to be concerned with what the autospy would show.

Yes indeed the Ramseys took steps to control all the outward evidence LE would immediately find. The ransom "letter" as I have said before was a blueprint, a hands on piece of evidence that was to help explain why their 6-year-old daughter's dead body was in their cellar.

I think the fact that we are still discussing this case and trying to uncover the truth after all these years shows that John and Patsy did whatever they could to cover up the initial injuries caused by their son, Burke.

All of course, just my opinion.

azwriter,
Hopefully on WS people appreciate that garrote is shorthand for the ligature and stick wrapped around her neck.

IMO the ligature and broken paintbrush are completely redundant, neither were required to kill JonBenet.

The use of the ligature and paintbrush handle suggests staging not only for affect but also to mask any prior manual asphyxiation?

If its BDI did BR tell his parents that JonBenet had been whacked on the head?

Or was the whack on the head a first attempt at staging which appeared to fail?

The next iteration was the ligature and paintbrush handle, nice and visible.


The head injury puzzles me since given what we asume, i.e. the sexual assault came first, then why do you need to whack JonBenet on the head?

There are other simpler means of restraining JonBenet. Has anyone ever mentioned whether BR is left or right handed?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

I dont think the brother did, to complex for a little wimpy looking kid. And they usually can get a child to break. With all my heart I really dont think Patsey did either. I think she loved her daughter and yeah loved to show her off. Big deal. I just cant see her writting this long crazy letter. I dont think John did either, already losing a daughter i just cant see him tossing this daughter around like a ragdoll and murdering her. I think it was prof plum with the candlestick. No i really believe that it someone who hated john and punishing him. And he/they did a good job. It might have been hired out so it was kind of sloppy, undecided etc..I cant find the link right now but the small DNA they did find inthe panties was the same dna they found on the bottoms. This is a facinating and eeri story that will forever haunt us. But i dont think the should of stopped there. I think they should have pulled records to all business men that hated john, they might have found more links. Rest in peace little one :,-(

Have you looked at the handwriting comparisons of the note and Patsy's handwriting? If you do, you see that there is little doubt she wrote the note. That being said, why would ANY parent write a ransom note to cover up the death of their child unless they were covering for themselves or another family member. It defies reason and sanity to think she'd cover up for an intruder, someone who hated JR.
The DNA on the bottoms matched the DNA on the OTHER bottoms (i.e. the waistbands of the panties and longjohns). This is in a place were these skin cells (the source of the DNA) could have easily been transferred to the hand os whoever pulled these two items up and down even JB herself. Patsy admitted putting them on her and JR was SEEN holding her around the waist as he carried her dead body up from the basement. His fingers touched those waistbands.
People who were thought to hold a grudge against JR or his company WERE investigated- There is simply nothing to link anyone else to the crime.

 

[azwriter]

azwriter,
Hopefully on WS people appreciate that garrote is shorthand for the ligature and stick wrapped around her neck.

IMO the ligature and broken paintbrush are completely redundant, neither were required to kill JonBenet.

The use of the ligature and paintbrush handle suggests staging not only for affect but also to mask any prior manual asphyxiation?

If its BDI did BR tell his parents that JonBenet had been whacked on the head?

Or was the whack on the head a first attempt at staging which appeared to fail?

The next iteration was the ligature and paintbrush handle, nice and visible.


The head injury puzzles me since given what we asume, i.e. the sexual assault came first, then why do you need to whack JonBenet on the head?

There are other simpler means of restraining JonBenet. Has anyone ever mentioned whether BR is left or right handed?


.

You asked why wack JonBenet on the head. I don't think it was done as a way to restrain her but rather a reaction to her screaming out or threatening to tell mom and dad what Burke was doing to her.

The smack on the head was so hard, I can only imagine it was done in a rage to shut her up. Something an older brother might do in order not to get into trouble. He wasn't a whimpy little kid. He was much taller than her and I think this was a "game" they had played together before. And this time, she wasn't going to allow it to happen.

I think Patsy's continous calls to the doctor was in reaction to catching Burke molesting his little sister. I can easily see this would be how Patsy would try to correct Burke and check with the doctor as to her daughter's welfare.

 

[DeeDee249]

You asked why wack JonBenet on the head. I don't think it was done as a way to restrain her but rather a reaction to her screaming out or threatening to tell mom and dad what Burke was doing to her.

The smack on the head was so hard, I can only imagine it was done in a rage to shut her up. Something an older brother might do in order not to get into trouble. He wasn't a whimpy little kid. He was much taller than her and I think this was a "game" they had played together before. And this time, she wasn't going to allow it to happen.

I think Patsy's continous calls to the doctor was in reaction to catching Burke molesting his little sister. I can easily see this would be how Patsy would try to correct Burke and check with the doctor as to her daughter's welfare.

I agree. And we have the added fact that the Rs asked for (and GOT) a "island of protection" around BR's medical records. There HAD to be something there that would have cast suspicion on BR had it been made known.

 

[UKGuy]

You asked why wack JonBenet on the head. I don't think it was done as a way to restrain her but rather a reaction to her screaming out or threatening to tell mom and dad what Burke was doing to her.

The smack on the head was so hard, I can only imagine it was done in a rage to shut her up. Something an older brother might do in order not to get into trouble. He wasn't a whimpy little kid. He was much taller than her and I think this was a "game" they had played together before. And this time, she wasn't going to allow it to happen.

I think Patsy's continous calls to the doctor was in reaction to catching Burke molesting his little sister. I can easily see this would be how Patsy would try to correct Burke and check with the doctor as to her daughter's welfare.

azwriter,
mmm, plausible, the checks with the doctor fine, but a whack on the back of the head as a response to abuse, well maybe, but it appears out of context to me. It looks more like a red flag.

Although I do agree whatever the game was, it had been played before, many times.


.

 

[azwriter]

I agree. And we have the added fact that the Rs asked for (and GOT) a "island of protection" around BR's medical records. There HAD to be something there that would have cast suspicion on BR had it been made known.

Gee DeeDee, thoughout the past year I have begun to hang on your posts and consider you very informed on this case.

Yes, thanks for bringing out the part about the medical records. There was no way the parents wanted these documents made public. Or that they be in the hands of LE officials to be investigated.

It's a new year and outside of the new book, we aren't much closer to solving this death. But the holdup will always be that we don't have all the information or evidence uncovered. I myself believe there is a reason we cannot or will not learn all about this case. I think it is to protect the person LE knows took JonBenet's life - her brother. Laws in Co, mandate he be protected.

Happy New Year DeeDee and all who post on this case.

 

[sharpar]

I think pr is the abuser the murderer the stager all done to protect the image of perfect family.
I thought so in the beginning and i think so today.
pr has always raised my hackles. She has always seemed off.
Having lived i know people are capable of extreme horror and sometimes give themselves permission
to act it out.

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

MY dear az, if I was as hopeless as you are, I would certainly not be wasting my time on this or any other JBR site. Call it female intuition if you like, or call it delusions if you prefer, but this case is going to get solved. Brilliant minds like yours and DeeDee's don't just invest this kind of mental energy in lost causes; cold cases are not lost, just cold. This one is warming up, wait and see!

 

[belimom]

You asked why wack JonBenet on the head. I don't think it was done as a way to restrain her but rather a reaction to her screaming out or threatening to tell mom and dad what Burke was doing to her.

The smack on the head was so hard, I can only imagine it was done in a rage to shut her up. Something an older brother might do in order not to get into trouble. He wasn't a whimpy little kid. He was much taller than her and I think this was a "game" they had played together before. And this time, she wasn't going to allow it to happen.

I think Patsy's continous calls to the doctor was in reaction to catching Burke molesting his little sister. I can easily see this would be how Patsy would try to correct Burke and check with the doctor as to her daughter's welfare.

azwriter,
mmm, plausible, the checks with the doctor fine, but a whack on the back of the head as a response to abuse, well maybe, but it appears out of context to me. It looks more like a red flag.

Although I do agree whatever the game was, it had been played before, many times.


.

I think a plausible scenario could be that, although this game had been played numerous times before, perhaps JBR was still sore or injured from the incident at the party on 12/23 that could've prompted the 911 call. Therefore the screaming and trying to get away...

 

[Nom de plume]

I think a plausible scenario could be that, although this game had been played numerous times before, perhaps JBR was still sore or injured from the incident at the party on 12/23 that could've prompted the 911 call. Therefore the screaming and trying to get away...

Belimom could you elaborate on the incident you're referring to please? Or could someone point me in the right direction to read up on this incident and the 911 call? It's been a while since I've read any of the books and I've forgotten the details about this. TIA

 

[eileenhawkeye]

John's public speaking page: http://bureau.espeakers.com/inpr/speaker.php?sid=8994&showreturntoresults=true

I like that he makes it sound like businesses would be most interested but there have been quite a few notorious folks at WS who would probably benefit from his media handling tips.

 

[redheadedgal]

Belimom could you elaborate on the incident you're referring to please? Or could someone point me in the right direction to read up on this incident and the 911 call? It's been a while since I've read any of the books and I've forgotten the details about this. TIA

here ya go, friend:

http://articles.cnn.com/1997-01-09/us/9701_09_slain.girl_1_john-ramsey-police-force-cord?_s=PM:US

http://articles.cnn.com/1997-01-10/...msey-police-dispatcher-serial-killer?_s=PM:US

 

[Nom de plume]

here ya go, friend:

http://articles.cnn.com/1997-01-09/us/9701_09_slain.girl_1_john-ramsey-police-force-cord?_s=PM:US

http://articles.cnn.com/1997-01-10/...msey-police-dispatcher-serial-killer?_s=PM:US

Thanks red! So no one fessed up to making the call. Kids goofing around sounds likely to me. I'm not sure this is related to the later events, but what do I know? Wait a sec. IIRC didn't FW say he was trying to dial a 9 to get out or some other nonsense? So that would be odd to make that excuse unless you had something to hide. There goes the kids goofing off theory. :banghead: LOL

 

[redheadedgal]

never heard that about FW... here are threads i could find re: the call: more for me to read when i have time lol


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123338&highlight=911+call+dec

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40518&highlight=911+call+fleet+white

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20733&highlight=911+call+fleet+white