Known rope in the house

[Whaleshark]

I agree, if JR could alter his handwriting "on the fly" so to speak, there would be no discernable alterations.

I respect the work you've done, so don't take this as an attack.

Don't worry, am not...

It seems to me that the "alterations" consist of small lines and squiggles (for lack of a better word) written on top of the original handwriting.

Some yes, but some are flowed letters together, and some are direct letters over....not just small lines and squiggles.

Is it really possible to determine who's lines and squiggles they are?

Probably not, and that's why I said it could be John doing some alterations, of course, but that I also see Patsy's handwriting and letters in addition to that, and on top of some of the old letters, as well. That's what has always perplexed me - why do I see elements of both handwriting - why does it have to be one or the other? Is it even one or the other - is that what we've been missing? And all the reasons and flow of thought in response to your question as to how I came up with this possibility....

I can understand matching full handwriting once it's "undisguised", but matching lines and squiggles?

If only lines and squiggles...hard to know, yes, only proves obvious attempt at disquising.

I'm mindful that my own theory of the case might be coloring my perceptions, but it does seem rather difficult to match lines and squiggles, as opposed to fully formed letters.

I agree, it does.

You say some of the alterations make the writing match up with PR. If PR were doing the disguising wouldn't she be careful not to alter JR's writing to look like hers? It would place her in jeopardy.

I don't know if she would or not - one would think so - logically, of course. But it looks like her letters in certain places anyway, and perhaps creating the hybrid on top of his was better than his obvious distinct small and smooshed handwriting.

If JR made the alterations, and made them to make his writing look more like PR's, then we have a new level of "evil". Not only was he trying to save his butt, he was going to throw PR under the bus, if need be.

Right, not saying that. I think the need was to disquise the handwriting period, not intentionally make it look like Patsy's instead of John's. That doesn't make much sense if she is to view the note anyway. I think they both did their best to create a disquised threatening note by an intruder, with what they had available to them in the middle of the night on Xmas night.

Well, it does kind of eliminate "working alone" theories, be it JDI or PDI. Lots of PDIs figure JR put the puzzle pieces together and valiantly helped cover up to save PR. And of course the JDI working alone theory would be toast if we could prove they worked together on the note.

Right...I'm not building one theory around the dual handwriting though...I'm still flexible..but rather like putting a puzzle together and decided, for now, I like this particular piece in the corner.

That would be great if you could do that. If it's possible to print an enlarged copy you could white-out the alterations, leaving the original writing. You could also white-out the original writing, leaving the alterations. This way would be an awful lot of manual work, but it would do the trick.

Yes, it would, but I could try. Some letters are not just added to though, some are written over and added to -- tricky to work and differentiate.

It's one of the best insights I've seen in the several years I've followed the case. Maybe the best. Of all the people who have been "debating" here on WS all these years, you are the first to think of enlarging the RN.

Well, I don't know if I am necessarily the first to suggest enlarging it after all this time - can't say for sure - but maybe the first to suggest enlarging it for this reason, to that degree, with this/these particular observations, and then to further compare and take apart, maybe? (I'll still appreciate the compliment, though).

With everything that's been leaked in this case, I'd suspect if the doc examiners enlarged the RN, we'd have heard about it. Not all of the examiners had the original, (only CBI?) but I think they all had physical copies. With a copy in hand it's natural to look for similarities and see if you can conclude that the writing is a match for someone. It's almost beneficial to be looking at it on a computer, then get struck with the idea to enlarge.

Yes, and you can see where examiners have taken apart and analyzed each letter to a degree, and have tested and assessed the style, lean of each letter, how they touch, etc... a lot has been done to compare each letter to an author's particular overall style, of course. But in all those in depth assessments by seasoned examiners, just like the investigators of the crime, they still come up with different conclusions.

Maybe rather than not being able to see the forest for the trees, we can't see the trees for the forest...

 

[OpenMind4U]

...a lot references to the 'squiggles' (thanks to Whaleshark!)...just makes me remember about JR comment that he thought that 'intruder' left some kind of clues by writing 'squiggles' on some kind of newspaper or magazine?...Am I remembering this correctly?....if yes, maybe someone was 'practicing these 'squiggles' separately from RN?...

Whaleshark, just to let you know that I'm trying to edit 400% enlarged RN, using the 'ProShop', taking off the 'squiggles'. If I'll be sussessfull - you'll be first to know to posted the result (it's your 'baby'.

 

[Whaleshark]

...a lot references to the 'squiggles' (thanks to Whaleshark!)...just makes me remember about JR comment that he thought that 'intruder' left some kind of clues by writing 'squiggles' on some kind of newspaper or magazine?...Am I remembering this correctly?....if yes, maybe someone was 'practicing these 'squiggles' separately from RN?...

Whaleshark, just to let you know that I'm trying to edit 400% enlarged RN, using the 'ProShop', taking off the 'squiggles'. If I'll be sussessfull - you'll be first to know to posted the result (it's your 'baby'.

Since you made mention of this concern before, when enlarging to 400%, be sure not to use an already poor or pixelated copy of the RN. The one I pasted into the thread from smoking gun was pretty clear... but there are other images from other sites and pics that are definitely not as clear and are already shown pixelated or otherwise not as clear.... something to keep in mind.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Since you made mention of this concern before, when enlarging to 400%, be sure not to use an already poor or pixelated copy of the RN. The one I pasted into the thread from smoking gun was pretty clear... but there are other images from other sites and pics that are definitely not as clear and are already shown pixelated or otherwise not as clear.... something to keep in mind.

Yes, I know...I used your copies, from your original post.

 

[UKGuy]

Actually you DO have a theory. From what you've written here, your theory seems to be that the Ramseys staged a kidnapping in which the kidnapper never intended to take his victim out of the house, stashing the body in the windowless room and leaving a note, in the hope the parents wouldn't bother to search the house, wouldn't call the police, but would patiently wait for a phone call -- a call that would, of course, never come, because there never was a kidnapper, only a staging attempt. By calling 911 first thing in the morning, they hoped to convince the police that their carefully planned scenario was genuine. And, according to your theory, their staging was successful and the plan worked.

Only, of course, it didn't. Because no one bought into that particular plan, not even the Ramseys themselves, apparently, who, to my knowledge, never even mentioned such a possibility.

Your theory is interesting, and up to a point makes sense. So good. I challenged you to offer an explanation for why the call was made so early and you did. Thank you. I'm surprised to read that you deny having a theory, because what you've written here certainly implies that you do. And it's not a bad one either.

But like any theory, it has to be backed up with real evidence. And has to stand up to questioning and criticism. Here are some problems that come to mind:

Your theory is actually more of an intruder theory than an RDI theory, because you offer a rational explanation for the "intruder's" behavior that night. I've always found it impossible to believe a kidnapper would leave a ransom note without actually taking his victim, but according to the scenario you've suggested, taking the victim might not have been necessary after all.
What you've written implies that someone entering the house with a key might have sexually assaulted JonBenet, killed her, and then had the thought that he could make some money by convincing the parents she was still alive but had been kidnapped. Nice! According to this scenario, the Ramsey's were innocent and their daughter was murdered by some very devious individual with a clever plan. Unfortunately for him, they ignored the warnings in the note and called 911 first thing, making it impossible for him to carry out his plan and collect his ransom.

But of course, that's NOT the purpose of your theory, which is intended to prove the opposite. And that's your problem, because there is no evidence whatsoever that the Ramseys ever conceived such a scenario. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a single instance in which either of them even suggested that leaving the body in the basement was part of the kidnapper's plan. Out of curiosity, I did a Google search to see if Lou Smit ever tried to peddle anything like that. Here's what I found:

KING: Why would a kidnapper kill the person they're going to kidnap at the scene while writing a ransom note? You're not going to get any money that way.

SMIT: That's true. I don't know what happened during the evening to change this person's mind. But the opposite is also true. If people believe that the Ramseys for some reason inadvertently killed JonBenet, staged this massive cover-up to make it look like a kidnapping, wrote a 2 1/2 page ransom note, brutally garroted their daughter, and then did not bring her body out of the house, no one can answer that question either. (from the Larry King Show​

Seems like Smit's thinking is more like mine than yours, UK. And how could that be if he's out there promoting the Ramsey version of what happened?

There are other problems as well:

Your theory fails to account for the Ramseys handing the authorities a note written by one or both of them. Why would you assume they'd feel comfortable doing that -- especially if it's so "obvious" Patsy wrote it? According to your version of what happened, they handed the police the most potentially damaging piece of evidence against them. Why would they want to do that?

Any time a murder victim is found inside someone's house, those living in the house are bound to become prime suspects. Sure, the Ramseys could have tried to promote the scenario you've suggested, but I'm sorry, it would have sounded pretty far fetched and pretty lame. And of course they did nothing of the sort anyhow. Are you suggesting they went to all this trouble to stage an event that was so far fetched they were afraid to even mention it?

So. Good try. As I said, this isn't a bad scenario and it does make sense -- until it doesn't.

Oh, and by the way, you'll be relieved to learn that I do NOT think for a moment that the intruder you claim they concocted ever actually existed. John's lies about breaking the window totally blow any possible intruder theory to smithereens.

docg,

Your theory is actually more of an intruder theory than an RDI theory, because you offer a rational explanation for the "intruder's" behavior that night. I've always found it impossible to believe a kidnapper would leave a ransom note without actually taking his victim, but according to the scenario you've suggested, taking the victim might not have been necessary after all.
What you've written implies that someone entering the house with a key might have sexually assaulted JonBenet, killed her, and then had the thought that he could make some money by convincing the parents she was still alive but had been kidnapped. Nice! According to this scenario, the Ramsey's were innocent and their daughter was murdered by some very devious individual with a clever plan. Unfortunately for him, they ignored the warnings in the note and called 911 first thing, making it impossible for him to carry out his plan and collect his ransom.

The intruder theory I propose is based on the same evidence as yours. I am suggesting that the intruder entered via the broken window, or front door, sexually assaulted JonBenet, redressed her, intended to remove her from the house, then changed his mind, and decided to hide the body, deep in the house, and try and collect on the ransom demand. Being a drug addict he slept in the next day, overunning the RN cutoff time.

Now the above theory is composed of inferences made from the Ransom Note, but the Ransom Note is fake, i.e bogus. So any inferences made are completely unreliable!

The same applies to your JDI theory, its that simple.

But of course, that's NOT the purpose of your theory, which is intended to prove the opposite.

No! Its intended to demonstrate that from false suppositions, ie RN, you can generate any theory you like, but it will neccessarly be inconsistent.

Seems like Smit's thinking is more like mine than yours, UK. And how could that be if he's out there promoting the Ramsey version of what happened?

Because he is relying on the same staged evidence as you, ie RN.

His theory was inconsistent just like yours, few people buy LS's story anymore.

Your theory fails to account for the Ramseys handing the authorities a note written by one or both of them. Why would you assume they'd feel comfortable doing that -- especially if it's so "obvious" Patsy wrote it? According to your version of what happened, they handed the police the most potentially damaging piece of evidence against them. Why would they want to do that?

Your criticism applies to your own theory since John authors the RN and leaves it out for Patsy to find!

John's lies about breaking the window totally blow any possible intruder theory to smithereens.

Really, can you substantiate this please? You have a reference of course?

For your delectation, thats a movie reference fyi, I do have a theory, two actually, one is not materially different from some other RDI. The second, if published, might attract the litigation hounds.



.

 

[Whaleshark]

Your criticism applies to your own theory since John authors the RN and leaves it out for Patsy to find!

Yeah, this is just hard for me to get past as well - that, according to DocG, he's not worried about Patsy detecting his handwriting, words, personal references to them in the note, but is worried about the police detecting his handwriting and such, and wouldn't have wanted them to see it. If we are playing 'more likelys', then who is 'more likely' to figure out that John wrote the note - Patsy or the police?

 

[midwest mama]

From a post by DocG:

There was an attempt to stage a crime-scene, yes. But as soon as the body was found, it was clear there was no kidnapping, so ultimately there was no real staging, only a badly botched attempt at staging. You don't stage a kidnapping without getting the victim out of the house. What the police found that day was not staging, but attempted staging, an attempt that backfired.
------------------
But if we are dealing with JR was the killer, would it have been impossible for him to have had a backup plan? Men of his intellectual business caliber almost always have Plan B at the ready. If Burke had interrupted him as he was in the midst of a staging, it could have shorted him on time as he had to deal with getting Burke resettled. And with Patsy also now involved, having been told Burke was JB's killer, it was even more crucial to have a backup plan. She was a basket case - how could he be sure she would make it through this without crumbling?

If the window staging was interrupted, it was only a small glitch, easy enough to fix - clean up the glass and say he broke the window himself earlier, if needed. He would just say an intruder got in by reaching through to unlock it, if necessary. Though he now had the risk of being seen at some future time leaving the house in order to dispose of the body, and have her 'found' off premise later, he assured himself he could handle that, as long as the rest of the scenario of the RN could be still be carried out. She was well hidden and could remain so a while longer. JR was a quiet man, with confidence in his abilities to achieve.

With time ticking away before the flight, they placed the call to the police, as well as to their friends, to assure the fake kidnappers had plenty of reason to end up killing JB, according to what the note said.

If the call from the kidnappers was to come between 8 and 10 TOMORROW , which was intended to be the 27th, the R's would have assumed that by then the police would have exited the premises, PR and Burke could have been taken with one of their friends to their home for safekeeping, and JR would have then been clear to work the plan of the note. Patsy could have kept him posted on the 'behind the scenes activities' by cell phone if something looked problematic. He would have made a plan with LE to contact them the moment JB could be found. He would get "rested" for the delivery.

Except, during this time frame he would have to take JB out of the house, and it was his biggest risk. But not impossible. He knew she would fit in the suitcase, because he tried it during the night before, for the original plan to remove her, (unwittingly leaving duvet fibers on her), making sure he could transfer her in his vehicle without leaving traceable evidence in his car. The empty suitcase would be disposable nearly anywhere - or transferable - especially since there would be no reason to suspect seeing a pilot putting a suitcase into his airplane, where it could even end up in another town.

The money, in $100's and $20's would have been delivered (actually kept and easily spent in those denominations over a period of time), new instructions would have been given to John as to where to pick up JB, (according to John, but really not at all, since he already had disposed of the body and knew where it was). At this point, end of kidnappers with money in hand.

JR would have then called police to pick up JB, along with going there himself, to the pick up point, where they would have found her heinously murdered by one of the kidnappers, because the Ramsey's 'didn't do as they were told'. Maybe there would have even been another note left with her body to tell JR he shouldn't have tried to grow a brain!

JB would have been found looking as if she'd been taken from her bed, with her blanket, and maybe even one of her dollies to show they had intended to keep her warm and comforted - except for that pervert who couldn't resist her.

JR and Patsy would have pulled off the complete plan to keep the future of their son protected and JR would have succeeded in assuring Patsy that no one could try to take Burke away from them now, thinking they would have to get Burke the help they both knew he so desparately needed. JR convinced Patsy that as long as the kidnapping plot would hold up, they could convince Burke his behavior was an accident that could be forgiven, but he must never, ever tell and must do everything they told him - especially when he worked with the doctors who would have to treat him.

JR already had Burke managed as to his sister's "accident" and knew Burke would accept that they had to make it seem like kidnappers came and got her - so no one would ever be able to blame Dad or Mom and destroy their family, or take him away from them.

But, the major glitch to the plan was Arndt deciding they should see if that call might have been meant for the 26th. Police were intent on staying in the house for quite some time. JR began to get restless wondering if someone would go and recheck the house again because the call didn't come. Police began to leave, but Arndt wasn't planning on going away until she had someone to post at the house. This was the real problem for John. He would now have to rely on Plan B, and was counting on JB being 'found' inside the house - ruthlessly killed by the kidnappers, which would explain no call on the 26th, and no further need to follow the rest of the plan. He was agitated having to wait for the police to find her.

A huge break for John, when Arndt suggested he and Fleet recheck the house - his resourcefulness walked him right through the rest of what happened that day. The man with the brains, capability, and shrewdness to create a billion dollar enterprise from a garage business, got himself in gear and unfolded a perfect Plan B. Even announcing to all that "he didn't mean to kill her", as a path of deflection to his son for all to consider, if they started to piece things together. Or point to an intruder if it turned out they could end up blaming someone they knew.

The note had been cleverly disguised already, so that would work in both plans. And just in case something went wrong there, he had handed off the notepad and commented that the handwriting on the note, probably with some surprise in his voice, did look like Patsy's. After all, it would be natural for a mother to cover for her son, wouldn't it? Certainly she would never be held accountable for trying to do that, would she?

Lots of bases covered. And all the deflection pointed totally away from JR.

All strictly my opinion.

 

[UKGuy]

Yeah, this is just hard for me to get past as well - that, according to DocG, he's not worried about Patsy detecting his handwriting, words, personal references to them in the note, but is worried about the police detecting his handwriting and such, and wouldn't have wanted them to see it. If we are playing 'more likelys', then who is 'more likely' to figure out that John wrote the note - Patsy or the police?

Whaleshark,
I agree, but remember his advertisment he has THE theory. Yet above is just one inconsistency among many.

Note neither docg or chrishope address the inconsistencies in their own theory, just those of others, with claims of error based on staged evidence, further damaging their reputation.

Your observations regarding the RN are another nail in the lone JDI theory.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

On planet earth, a body, in the house, indicates strongly that no kidnapping took place. The body seriously detracts from the believability of a kidnap scenario. At least on this planet.

Of course, we know that. BUT- the Rs needed to "lay the groundwork" for the REASON why she would have been killed. IMO, that "reason" was that the parents called police. The Rs weren't as concerned with whether she was "missing" from the house- what they WERE concerned with was that her death be EXPLAINED in a way that pointed away from them. In other words, she was killed as punishment for them calling 911. Because this was a staged scenario consisting of a dead, sexually assaulted child which in reality came FIRST, the crime had to be "retrofitted" as it were. Instead of starting with a kidnapped kid, ransom note, call to police and retaliatory killing of the child, THIS crime happened backwards. So you have a sexually assaulted child who was bludgeoned to death FOLLOWED by a ransom note with a warning not to call police, followed by the call to police. Not the other way around.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Of course, we know that. BUT- the Rs needed to "lay the groundwork" for the REASON why she would have been killed. IMO, that "reason" was that the parents called police. The Rs weren't as concerned with whether she was "missing" from the house- what they WERE concerned with was that her death be EXPLAINED in a way that pointed away from them. In other words, she was killed as punishment for them calling 911. Because this was a staged scenario consisting of a dead, sexually assaulted child which in reality came FIRST, the crime had to be "retrofitted" as it were. Instead of starting with a kidnapped kid, ransom note, call to police and retaliatory killing of the child, THIS crime happened backwards. So you have a sexually assaulted child who was bludgeoned to death FOLLOWED by a ransom note with a warning not to call police, followed by the call to police. Not the other way around.

Absolutely correct!!!! Ramsy's was EXPECTED that police would find JB right away therefore they called ALL their friends at the same time as they called police! They need a lot of people to contaminate the house (footprints, fibers, messing-up the crime scene) and to be the witnesses of their suffering and innocence!!! It's very important to notice that when they called their friends - they did NOT told them about 'kidnapping'. They said 'come in fast, it's urgent!'...

jmo

 

[Chrishope]

Of course, we know that. BUT- the Rs needed to "lay the groundwork" for the REASON why she would have been killed. IMO, that "reason" was that the parents called police. The Rs weren't as concerned with whether she was "missing" from the house- what they WERE concerned with was that her death be EXPLAINED in a way that pointed away from them. In other words, she was killed as punishment for them calling 911. Because this was a staged scenario consisting of a dead, sexually assaulted child which in reality came FIRST, the crime had to be "retrofitted" as it were. Instead of starting with a kidnapped kid, ransom note, call to police and retaliatory killing of the child, THIS crime happened backwards. So you have a sexually assaulted child who was bludgeoned to death FOLLOWED by a ransom note with a warning not to call police, followed by the call to police. Not the other way around.

So am I to understand that you now agree with Doc's theory?

I agree with what you've said -calling the police could serve as a rationale for finding JB dead- but IMO it only works in a scenario in which the body is dumped.

A retaliatory killing would have to come after the 911 call. (understanding that it's all a story being told, not reality) With the body in the house it's obvious she was killed before the kidnappers left, so it couldn't be retaliatory. So the 911 call, with the body still in the house, destroys any possibility of claiming her death was in retaliation for calling 911.

A retaliatory killing works with Doc's theory, or any theory in which the body is dumped, because if the body is later found, it can always be claimed that the kidnappers killed her, and the reason is because the Rs called 911.

 

[DeeDee249]

So am I to understand that you now agree with Doc's theory?

I agree with what you've said -calling the police serves as a rationale for finding JB dead- but IMO it only works in a scenario in which the body is dumped.

A retaliatory killing would have to come after the 911 call. (understanding that it's all a story being told, not reality) With the body in the house it's obvious she was killed before the kidnappers left, so it couldn't be retaliatory. So the 911 call destroys any possibility of claiming her death was in retaliation for calling 911.

A retaliatory killing works with Doc's theory, because if the body is dumped, and later found, it can always be claimed that the kidnappers killed her, and the reason is because the Rs called 911.

I do not agree with all of docg's theory. I have ALWAYS maintained that the parents wanted to PORTRAY that she was killed because they called police.
In a REAL kidnapping, of course a retaliatory killing would have to come after the kidnappers discovered the victim's family had called police (or someone else). But this was a FAKE kidnapping, devised for the singular purpose of pointing away from the parents while providing a REASON for having a dead little girl in the house. I don't agree that it only works if the body is dumped. This was a crime staged by the PARENTS of the victim and as such has a different set of "rules". I do not believe her parents would or could EVER dump her body. EVER.
This is not to say that this would be the case in ALL situations where a parent kills a child (accidentally or not) and then calls police to say they are "missing". Casey Anthony is the most blatant, in my mind. She not only dumped her (or had someone do it for her) but she "partied like it's 1999" once "free" of her daughter. I do not see the Rs as like this at all.
This was something that happened within the family- a family that had "secrets" ...dirty little secrets- which had to be protected at all costs.

 

[Chrishope]

I do not agree with all of docg's theory. I have ALWAYS maintained that the parents wanted to PORTRAY that she was killed because they called police.
In a REAL kidnapping, of course a retaliatory killing would have to come after the kidnappers discovered the victim's family had called police (or someone else). But this was a FAKE kidnapping, devised for the singular purpose of pointing away from the parents while providing a REASON for having a dead little girl in the house.

But the faked scenario still has to be at least possible, if it is to be believed. A retaliatory killing with the body in the house isn't possible. As you say, the killing has to come after the police are called (and in a fake kidnapping it has to appear that she was killed after the police were called) With the body still in the house, it's obvious she was killed before the police were called.

The only way I can see to make that work is if her body is (fakely) returned to the house. But the Rs had to figure on the body being found once the 911 call was made.

 

[DeeDee249]

But the faked scenario still has to be at least possible, if it is to be believed. A retaliatory killing with the body in the house isn't possible. As you say, the killing has to come after the police are called (and in a fake kidnapping it has to appear that she was killed after the police were called) With the body still in the house, it's obvious she was killed before the police were called.

The only way I can see to make that work is if her body is (fakely) returned to the house. But the Rs had to figure on the body being found once the 911 call was made.

I see a retaliatory killing with the body in the house as possible in the minds of the parents who staged the crime. Let's remember what we are dealing with here. These were panicked people. They were in adrenaline-fueled hyperdrive.
None of us can know for sure what the Rs plan truly was. I feel they placed her in the wineceller as opposed to displaying her in some awful tableaux (as a real intruder psychopathic killer might have). They put her in the innermost, secret place they could because they just couldn't bring themselves to dump her body, stuff her in a suitcase, etc.
I am not sure whether they did or did not want her found by police or anyone else, and I don't think they knew for sure themselves. I have always maintained that what they THOUGHT would happen was that LE would take information from them and leave them alone in the house while they (the police) conducted a search for their kidnapped daughter.. At that point, they planned to call police at some point to say that she had been returned or they found her on the porch, etc, and brought her inside. I truly believe they were going to push the "retaliatory killing" scenario.
When that didn't happen and it became apparent that police were NOT going to leave them alone in the house and that they were actually going to be made to leave the house so it could be sealed as a crime scene, JR (at least) KNEW he had to "find" her.
The alternative was leaving her to rot in the house to be discovered after neighbors complained about the stench. Cadaver dogs would have been brought it and let's just say that the "movie star" funeral with the open coffin, tiara and pageant dress would not have been an option. And "pageant princess funeral" being the least of it, I cannot imagine them deciding to leave her to rot. Simple as that. You don't have to be a forensic specialist to know that a dead body becomes "unpleasant" REALLY quickly when left to its own devices- more so when that body has been dumped outdoors.
Raccoons chewing on JB? Never gonna happen. They'd NEVER allow that to happen, no matter how her body being found in the house appeared.

 

[Chrishope]

I see a retaliatory killing with the body in the house as possible in the minds of the parents who staged the crime. Let's remember what we are dealing with here. These were panicked people. They were in adrenaline-fueled hyperdrive.
None of us can know for sure what the Rs plan truly was. I feel they placed her in the wineceller as opposed to displaying her in some awful tableaux (as a real intruder psychopathic killer might have). They put her in the innermost, secret place they could because they just couldn't bring themselves to dump her body, stuff her in a suitcase, etc.
I am not sure whether they did or did not want her found by police or anyone else, and I don't think they knew for sure themselves. I have always maintained that what they THOUGHT would happen was that LE would take information from them and leave them alone in the house while they (the police) conducted a search for their kidnapped daughter.. At that point, they planned to call police at some point to say that she had been returned or they found her on the porch, etc, and brought her inside. I truly believe they were going to push the "retaliatory killing" scenario.
When that didn't happen and it became apparent that police were NOT going to leave them alone in the house and that they were actually going to be made to leave the house so it could be sealed as a crime scene, JR (at least) KNEW he had to "find" her.
The alternative was leaving her to rot in the house to be discovered after neighbors complained about the stench. Cadaver dogs would have been brought it and let's just say that the "movie star" funeral with the open coffin, tiara and pageant dress would not have been an option. And "pageant princess funeral" being the least of it, I cannot imagine them deciding to leave her to rot. Simple as that. You don't have to be a forensic specialist to know that a dead body becomes "unpleasant" REALLY quickly when left to its own devices- more so when that body has been dumped outdoors.
Raccoons chewing on JB? Never gonna happen. They'd NEVER allow that to happen, no matter how her body being found in the house appeared.

OK, but for that to work, they had to assume that the police would not search, or would do a poor job of searching (which in fact happened, but could they count on that ?) and they had to assume no dogs would be brought in. Why would they assume that?

The K9 unit was on standby at 7:30. Why it was never called in I don't know.

The scenario you suggest is possible, but only with the assumptions I've noted, and the one you noted - that the cops would read the note then rush out looking for kidnappers leaving the Rs alone, and no surveillance of the house. Does it really seem probable that they made such bad assumptions?

 

[dodie20]

I do not agree with all of docg's theory. I have ALWAYS maintained that the parents wanted to PORTRAY that she was killed because they called police.
In a REAL kidnapping, of course a retaliatory killing would have to come after the kidnappers discovered the victim's family had called police (or someone else). But this was a FAKE kidnapping, devised for the singular purpose of pointing away from the parents while providing a REASON for having a dead little girl in the house. I don't agree that it only works if the body is dumped. This was a crime staged by the PARENTS of the victim and as such has a different set of "rules". I do not believe her parents would or could EVER dump her body. EVER.
This is not to say that this would be the case in ALL situations where a parent kills a child (accidentally or not) and then calls police to say they are "missing". Casey Anthony is the most blatant, in my mind. She not only dumped her (or had someone do it for her) but she "partied like it's 1999" once "free" of her daughter. I do not see the Rs as like this at all.
This was something that happened within the family- a family that had "secrets" ...dirty little secrets- which had to be protected at all costs.

I'm not so sure that somebody wasn't planning to dump JB's body. For instance, if PR was involved in the murder but JR wasn't, she could have run out of time, so planned to dump the body after the cops left. One thing about Kolar's book, is that I no longer believe this was an accident in the heat of the moment. IMO, anybody who could strangle his/her daughter to death, or cover for someone who did, wouldn't have a problem with getting rid of the body. As a matter of fact, IMO, I strongly believe that getting rid of the body would be the plan. Again, hypothetically speaking, if PR was responsible, JR may have been suspicious, and knowing her habits, checked the basement. Once the body was brought up from the basement, all plans from PR to later dump the body, would be dashed. Some of the revelations from this book, have seriously thrown me for a loop. The 90 minute interval, changes everything. Also, IMO, I think there was very little, if any 'loving' undoing. If PR was covering for BR, I think she would have been more loving and removed the garotte, among other things. IMO, her not doing these things points to her being angry and uncaring. She could write a ransom note for her son, but not unbind her daughter? IMO, she wrote the note to cover for herself only, and she left JB in such a horrible condition, because she planned to get rid of the body. All MOO.

 

[midwest mama]

Your post is very long, complicated and confusing, mm, and I don't have time to respond to everything in it. But if you are suggesting the Ramseys had some sort of "backup" plan involving getting the body out of the house after the police had been called, then I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. That would have been a lousy plan, because the house would probably have been carefully searched at some point later in the day and even if it weren't, the police would certainly be keeping a careful eye on Patsy and John's comings and goings. The body in little basement room would have been rapidly decaying and the stench would have been unmistakeable after a day or so in any case.

Not at all necessary for you to respond to anything I have posted, DocG. I don't believe I have ever expected anyone on this forum to respond, agree with or adopt any of my theory or opinions, nor will I ever.

And, in spite of the fact you disagree with some of my opinions, and think they are lousy, nevertheless, I have them, and they still enable me to have arrived in the JDI camp, the same as you have.

I do not agree with your complete methodology of arriving at your JDI theory, and others on this forum have stated as such, and we do not require that you consider our thoughts as gospel -- which must seem unusual to you. I feel you clearly attempt to refute any other avenues of thought other than your own, then expect others to accept yours is the only logical theory of this crime against JB, or else be nullified of having a valid opinion.

No way, no how, DocG. In fact, those of us in the JDI camp have to accept that we are in the minority, even these 16 years later with every aspect of this crime examined and re-examined thousands of times. Look at the numbers in the polls on the forum. Lots of votes for other possibilites.

In spite of this, I will remain patient and hopeful that one day JR will be charged and brought to trial. If that happens, at least maybe we'll know the truth, justice will be served, and no matter who has what theory, there will be a great cause for celebration! :moo:

 

[midwest mama]

OK, but for that to work, they had to assume that the police would not search, or would do a poor job of searching (which in fact happened, but could they count on that ?) and they had to assume no dogs would be brought in. Why would they assume that?

The K9 unit was on standby at 7:30. Why it was never called in I don't know.

The scenario you suggest is possible, but only with the assumptions I've noted, and the one you noted - that the cops would read the note then rush out looking for kidnappers leaving the Rs alone, and no surveillance of the house. Does it really seem probable that they made such bad assumptions?

BBM

Maybe not probable, but why not possible?

In any of the RDI theories, the mind of the killer(s) would have had to have been so out of touch with reality, that I think that mind would have thought anything would be possible if they envisioned it so. Demented havoc would have been the ruling factors of thinking, not clear rational judgement.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OK, but for that to work, they had to assume that the police would not search, or would do a poor job of searching (which in fact happened, but could they count on that ?) and they had to assume no dogs would be brought in. Why would they assume that?

The K9 unit was on standby at 7:30. Why it was never called in I don't know.

The scenario you suggest is possible, but only with the assumptions I've noted, and the one you noted - that the cops would read the note then rush out looking for kidnappers leaving the Rs alone, and no surveillance of the house. Does it really seem probable that they made such bad assumptions?

The following hours after 911 call are the most fascinating to me.

- PR from the ACTIVE, 'in charge' mode (getting John's attention, running checking on JB and Burke, making 911 call, making calls/invitations to all friends, waiting by the door to meet & greet police and friends) becomes the PASSIVE, staying in one place, sitting and watching through her fingers for police activity, 'do nothing' OBSERVER;
- JR from the OBSERVER mode (reading ALL pages of RN on his four, changing clothes, check on Burke, letting his wife to make 911 and all other calls) becomes the curiously moving around, nervous WONDER.

In interview, JR stated that his first thoughts were to close the Boulder city, airport, roads...but interestingly enough, he never demands to bring the searching dogs, get additional police personnal, get Patsy out the house to safe place...I didn't hear him ever complained that for long hours Arndt was by herself without any kind of protection from 'foreign faction'. JR appears and disappears, moving around the house unnoticable, without any kind of DEMANDS to SPEED-UP the searching effort.

If we'll be watching the movie depicting the true activities of Ramsey's house from 6:00am till 1:00pm - we wouldn't believe that parents of 'kidnapping' child could behave that way for such a long 7 hours!!!...I can fully understand why with the first opportunity JR quickly-energetically 'finds' JB body!

Like I said before, IMO, Ramsey were EXPECTING that JB's body would be discovered by LE that morning...

 

[OpenMind4U]

I'm not so sure that somebody wasn't planning to dump JB's body. For instance, if PR was involved in the murder but JR wasn't, she could have run out of time, so planned to dump the body after the cops left. One thing about Kolar's book, is that I no longer believe this was an accident in the heat of the moment. IMO, anybody who could strangle his/her daughter to death, or cover for someone who did, wouldn't have a problem with getting rid of the body. As a matter of fact, IMO, I strongly believe that getting rid of the body would be the plan. Again, hypothetically speaking, if PR was responsible, JR may have been suspicious, and knowing her habits, checked the basement. Once the body was brought up from the basement, all plans from PR to later dump the body, would be dashed. Some of the revelations from this book, have seriously thrown me for a loop. The 90 minute interval, changes everything. Also, IMO, I think there was very little, if any 'loving' undoing. If PR was covering for BR, I think she would have been more loving and removed the garotte, among other things. IMO, her not doing these things points to her being angry and uncaring. She could write a ransom note for her son, but not unbind her daughter? IMO, she wrote the note to cover for herself only, and she left JB in such a horrible condition, because she planned to get rid of the body. All MOO.

dodie20, such an excellent points!...I'm not sure I would agree with 'getting rid of the body' because for Patsy is very important to have the 'proper burial'...however, with everything else I'm 100% agree. Especially with 'The 90 minute interval, changes everything'!!!!