Known rope in the house

[Chrishope]

dodie20,
I do agree, it sounds sensationalist, but there are good grounds for assuming a pedophile ring existed.

I'm not saying the ring killed JonBenet, what I'm suggesting and can demonstrate if required, is that the pedophile rings existence made it imperative that JonBenet was killed.

.

Please demonstrate.

 

[UKGuy]

Doubtfull

Chrishope,
Really?

Sure, but not beyond doubt?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

The phone company keeps records. He can't claim he received a phone call unless he actually received one, sooner or later the police would check. And as soon as he said anything about JonBenet being kidnapped he'd be running the same risk of Patsy dialing 911 on the spot.

Yes, the phone companies do keep records. Records the defense team wanted kept secret. A judge (in a pocket?) ordered the R's phone records sealed forever. This was in "retaliation" against two tabloid reporters who had tried to obtain them fraudulently.
To me, this fairly screams corruption. Some one got to that judge. Of course, you have to go after the reporters who acted illegally. But you don't do it by eliminating VERY important evidence in a child's sexual assault and murder. Not unless someone powerful wants you to, that is. Judges are appointed, aren't they?

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, the phone companies do keep records. Records the defense team wanted kept secret. A judge (in a pocket?) ordered the R's phone records sealed forever. This was in "retaliation" against two tabloid reporters who had tried to obtain them fraudulently.
To me, this fairly screams corruption. Some one got to that judge. Of course, you have to go after the reporters who acted illegally. But you don't do it by eliminating VERY important evidence in a child's sexual assault and murder. Not unless someone powerful wants you to, that is. Judges are appointed, aren't they?

DeeDee249,
Did Patsy not buy a cellphone for John sometime before Christmas or am I misremembering?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Did Patsy not buy a cellphone for John sometime before Christmas or am I misremembering?


.

She CLAIMED there was a lost cellphone. When you lose a cellphone and buy another, you must have the lost cellphone deactivated by your cellular carrier so no one who finds it can use it. I do not believe any LE asked Patsy to VERIFY that she lost a cellphone and got another. It is her word only.
Eventually the cell phone records were obtained. They showed NO calls made during December. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

If there was any "losing" or "deactivation" of a cell phone, IMO it happened AFTER JB was killed to prevent anyone from tracking calls that were made that night.

 

[UKGuy]

She CLAIMED there was a lost cellphone. When you lose a cellphone and buy another, you must have the lost cellphone deactivated by your cellular carrier so no one who finds it can use it. I do not believe any LE asked Patsy to VERIFY that she lost a cellphone and got another. It is her word only.
Eventually the cell phone records were obtained. They showed NO calls made during December. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

If there was any "losing" or "deactivation" of a cell phone, IMO it happened AFTER JB was killed to prevent anyone from tracking calls that were made that night.

DeeDee249,
No calls made, well what does that tell you? Well for me its a conspiracy that goes beyond the Ramsey family.

Its one of the details in this case that tells you its bigger than the family.



.

 

[Cherokee]

Pic taken from here:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jonbenet-ramsey-case-documents-0

Look at this enlarged view of the ransom note. You can easily see what has been done to the letters of the words.

Each letter, each word is disguised after the words are written. There are added squiggles, extensions, curves, etc., to each letter to make the handwriting unfamiliar.

Up close like this you can clearly see how a lot of the words look like John Ramsey's handwriting, once you subtract the extra squiggles, curves, etc.

How in the world do you think this looks like a sample of John Ramsey's handwriting? To what are you comparing it to? DocG's anonymous fake font letter?

Here is an REAL sample of John's handwriting. You can see from the slant and John's mixed use of both upper case and lower case letters in a word (just to name two major differences) that the handwriting is NOTHING alike.

 

[Cherokee]

And yet we have, not only regular people, but handwriting 'experts' who claim with 100% certainty that it is Patsy's handwriting. Ah, but we have other experts who can pinpoint John's handwriting.

Please name one. I have asked DocG for the name of one of his alleged John wrote the ransom note experts, and he has NEVER in all these years, given me one.

Just because something is repeated doesn't make it so. To repeat there are experts who name John as the ransom note author does not make it true. Perhaps you believe that because DocG stated it. I'm sorry you were misled.

In over ten years of case research, I have never seen ONE document examiner or handwriting expert, much less MORE than one, as implied by the use of the plural word "experts," state they believe John wrote the ransom note. Not one! Not any of the Ramsey's paid shills, not any of the CBI's experts, not any of the independent experts hired by different entities over the years, have ever stated a belief that John wrote the ransom note. In over ten years on the Ramsey crime forums, I haven't even seen an amateur handwriting analyst or a forum poster, except for DocG, claim John wrote the ransom note!

Please name one expert, or please quit posting this erroneous claim. Thank you.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Everyone's making the mistake of looking at the events of that evening with hindsight.

You must look at them through the eyes of the offender.

It's all very well for us to say "well it doesn't make sense that they did x,y,z" and no, perhaps it doesn't, to us sitting here in our loungerooms thinking how WE would do it.

At the time of the murder and cover up, they were winging it, big time.

None of this was "planned" or premeditated.

They were working as they did all the way through their marriage, at tangents.

I have no doubt, personally, that PR dealt the blow, ran to John panicking.

JR, always calm and methodical - said "your problem, you sort it out".

Which left PR flying around like the nutjob she was, writing notes and inflicting the sexual injury.

JR then finally realised that she may make a mess of things, dragged himself out of bed, and took over.

The motive? He was raping his daughter, and PR knew he was raping his daughter. It could even have been a family game. He HAD to help with the coverup.

That right there is enough motive for him to become involved in the coverup. I believe John is the one who finally strangled JB.

The scene shows two minds, to me. One disorganised, panicking, making stupid decisions like writing notes. The other organised, cold, attempting to build a story that would cover both their crimes.

 

[Whaleshark]

Please name one. I have asked DocG for the name of one of his alleged John wrote the ransom note experts, and he has NEVER in all these years, given me one.

Just because something is repeated doesn't make it so. To repeat there are experts who name John as the ransom note author does not make it true. Perhaps you believe that because DocG stated it. I'm sorry you were misled.

Simple research on A Candy Rose will point you to this....I'm not misled by DocG. I do my own research and make my own determinations.

In over ten years of case research, I have never seen ONE document examiner or handwriting expert, much less MORE than one, as implied by the use of the plural word "experts," state they believe John wrote the ransom note. Not one!

In over 10 years? Perhaps you are not researching enough? I really value your analysis as well; I've reviewed it numerous times...but you don't have to get so defensive and presume I am ignorant because you didn't find the information out yourself.

Please name one expert, or please quit posting this erroneous claim. Thank you.

As you wish:

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ransomnote.htm

"Dr. Fausto Brugnatelli, forensic document examiner and graphologist in Italy analysing John Bennett Ramsey handwriting:"
http://web.tiscali.it/faustobrugnatelli/index.htm

More info on Dr. Brugnatelli:
http://www.examina.net/en/about.htm

".....At the international FEPL trial on forensic evaluation accuracy ("Handwriting skill validation trial" - August 2003 - La Trobe University, Australia), Dr. Brugnatelli scored the highest percentage of correct answers among all participants. The "FEPL" test ("Forensic Expertise Profiling Laboratory") requires answers to 200 questioned handwritings and at present is regarded as the most thorough and reliable trial to assess the technical skills of the forensic document examiner.

At the ST²AR Test (signatures trial - Sept. 2009) on forensic accuracy evaluation, Fausto Brugnatelli was the only one to score 100% correct answers, with no inconclusives and only full-certainty degree answers to all the cases submitted by the test".
__

"Bart Baggett - In 2003, founded the School of Forensic Document Examination, which later became known as the International School of Forensic Document Examination" -
http://www.myhandwriting.com/celebs/ransom1.html#bartsays

But rather than just be angry at me for being obviously so ignorant and narrow-minded, and thinking that I follow and believe DocG, just because he said John Ramsey wrote it, and provided his examples...Oh, wait.. I don't totally believe that, and that's not what happened....

... If you didn't know about these other experts' analyses or opinions, you probably don't know that I see BOTH parents' handwriting in the note. Literally. So, I am not totally Patsy wrote it, NOR am I totally John Ramsey wrote it. I think John Ramsey wrote it FIRST, and Patsy wrote OVER it, on top of it, in addition to it, and to help disguise it.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Can we PLEASE drop this 'handwriting' subject for awile until emotions are still high?...It was a whole thread on this subject which was recently deleted (maybe you missed it, Waleshark?) in which Cherokee had explained about 'Dr. Fausto Brugnatelli' analysis very clearly.

Waleshark, in regards of your analysis, I believe Cherokee has been given good explanation why RN has so many 'looks like' over-written effects due to the certain pen quality/attributes.

Like I promissed before, I did try to highlighted all these 'squiggy' lines....wasn't successfull because many of them was ACCOMODATED by the next line bellow! In another word, the letters in the line bellow was perfectly 'fitting' these 'squiggys' above...meaning, if anyone add them - it should be added WHILE writing...not after RN was written. You know what I mean?

 

[BOESP]

... "Bart Baggett - In 2003, founded the School of Forensic Document Examination, which later became known as the International School of Forensic Document Examination" -
http://www.myhandwriting.com/celebs/ransom1.html#bartsays

....

From the above website: "We don't have enough handwriting of the father, John Ramsey, to rule him out as the author of the note. " (emphasis is original)

I have a little problem with this QDE (if that is truly his profession ... the website mostly seems to be a commercial site to sell the public flashcards and the like, which will help them learn to be a QDE ). :notgood:

First, this guy deals in "celebrity" analysis. Not a good recommendation for forensics, in my book.

Secondly, "We don't have enough...." Beware of people who use sweeping generalities. Who is "we" and why should I believe what these unnamed people have to say. :waitasec:

Thirdly, the forensic-quality examiners in the Ramsey case did, indeed, have sufficient exemplars of John Ramseys' handwriting else they would not have been able to make a statement one way or the other. To my knowledge, John Ramsey was excluded. To pay attention to a conclusion based on someone who states he/she did not have enough information to form a conclusion, well, I just can't let their opinion carry much weight.

 

[Whaleshark]

Can we PLEASE drop this 'handwriting' subject for awile until emotions are still high?...It was a whole thread on this subject which was recently deleted (maybe you missed it, Waleshark?) in which Cherokee had explained about 'Dr. Fausto Brugnatelli' analysis very clearly.

Waleshark, in regards of your analysis, I believe Cherokee has been given good explanation why RN has so many 'looks like' over-written effects due to the certain pen quality/attributes.

Like I promissed before, I did try to highlighted all these 'squiggy' lines....wasn't successfull because many of them was ACCOMODATED by the next line bellow! In another word, the letters in the line bellow was perfectly 'fitting' these 'squiggys' above...meaning, if anyone add them - it should be added WHILE writing...not after RN was written. You know what I mean?

whatever then - yeah, i guess i missed it -- I haven't been on here in a week, so no, i didn't get a chance to see it or respond to it.

i am just answering above because I just saw the question (angry by Cherokee, not by me, by the way), for the first time...

If Cherokee thinks he/she can totally discount Brugnatelli, a forensic examiner proven in his field, then fine.

If I'm not allowed to debate the subject anymore, whatever...then.

People will believe what they want, won't they?


Lastly - -perhaps I need to reiterate that I was answering the request by Cherokee that not one expert in the whole ten years -- not one! -- that Cherokee had been on this case, was an examiner who said it was John Ramsey who did the handwriting -- well Fausto did his back in 1998, and it's been out there for over 10 years... I know the controversy about Baggett, but there are also people who have gone to his program/course, and learned from it, and enjoyed it. I am not vouching for Baggett; I am answering Cherokee's question about producing information on not only one, but more than one examiner/expert stating they see John Ramsey, and accusing me of offering erroneous information, taken secondhand by only DocG's claims.

And, I am not saying that it's John Ramsey either. I was called out. I answered it.

 

[OpenMind4U]

whatever then - yeah, i guess i missed it -- I haven't been on here in a week, so no, i didn't get a chance to see it or respond to it.

i am just answering above because I just saw the question (angry by Cherokee, not by me, by the way), for the first time...

If Cherokee thinks he/she can totally discount Brugnatelli, a forensic examiner proven in his field, then fine.

If I'm not allowed to debate the subject anymore, whatever...then.
People will believe what they want, won't they?

No, no dear!!! Not at all!!! You're absolutely fine, and Cherokee wasn't angry at YOU at all!!!! You missed pretty painfull conversation between Cherokee and DocG...Nothing to do with you, believe me!!!! Please, don't take this personnaly!....ok?

 

[OpenMind4U]

Whaleshark, let's go back to your analysis. I'm sure Cherokee will explained why these squiqqy (sp?) lines were there. Cherokee is the handwriting specialist with 20+ years of experience, working on this field. She wrote amazing analysis on RN long time ago with copywrite disclaimer, but you can read it on FFJ. And like you said, everyone is entitled to her/his opinion based on knowledge and believes...

But did you understand what I mean in my previous post about highlighting these 'squiqqys'?

 

[Whaleshark]

I've reviewed Cherokee's analysis on FFJ for years.. I even put that in my post above.

But see, unlike Cherokee, I'd also seen the equally plausible, to me, analysis by a reputable Brugnatelli.

So, I had the benefit of viewing both sides and possibilities, and wondering why they both seemed so right...along with my other statements I made a week or two ago...

But it's not just squigglies, Open Mind... that's the problem. Cherokee is so adamant, because Cherokee is right -- there are distinct elements of Patsy's writing in that note.

But Brugnatelli is also right -- there are distinct elements of John's handwriting in the note!

This, to me, seems to me, to be the underlying piece of the puzzle. It's not just 'squigglies'. When enlarged enough, and letters are broken apart and separated from layers, you can see some of the 'original' letters...

But again, I didn't see Cherokee's defense of, or answers, about the 'squiggly letters' that you said he/she made so clear... and you also don't want to rehash that nasty debate... Ok, well, I wasn't online all week, so I don't know...

Your statement: "In another word, the letters in the line bellow was perfectly 'fitting' these 'squiggys' above...meaning, if anyone add them - it should be added WHILE writing...not after RN was written. You know what I mean?"

Not really... because when enlarged to 400% --- a clear and not pixelated copy on the monitor, all squigglies are not from letters in the lines below them.

And, yes, some of the squiggly lines, look like they would be added while writing, which if you look at John's own handwriting, he has awfully squiggly handwriting. His letters, when enlarged, have that same characteristic. Patsy has very flowy handwriting, except maybe if she is writing with her other hand.... But some letters are not just extended with squigglies. Some are written over, some are extended with a smooth curly tail, some are totally changed to look like they have extra lines to the letter....

I don't know what Cherokee said about all that....

But I do know what I see.

 

[BOESP]

I suppose this is the wrong topic to keep discussing the note, but I'd like to hear what various websleuthers think about this comment:

"LARRY KING: "So you agree that whoever authored the ransom note probably killed the child?"
JOHN RAMSEY: "I agree."
PATSY RAMSEY: "I would agree with that."
[SIZE=-2]Source: the Larry King Live show - May 31, 2000 - CNN cable channel" (courtesy of http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/note/)
[/SIZE]

 

[OpenMind4U]

I do hope Cherokee will explain again...It's about FELT pen...Cherokee said that this kind of pen has tendency to create such a 'squiggy' while writing...Hope he/she'll post again!

 

[Whaleshark]

Well, ok, but I don't know...I would think only if someone is writing that way, it makes it easier for a felt pen to pick up the squiggles -- but a felt pen doesn't necessarily create the squiggly writing... I have black sharpies, of different thicknesses at my desk right now. If I write clearly, quickly, and smoothly, there are no squiggles...

And again, it's not just squigglies. There are letters changed and written over, extra lines added, extensions to letters, etc.

 

[midwest mama]

I suppose this is the wrong topic to keep discussing the note, but I'd like to hear what various websleuthers think about this comment:

"LARRY KING: "So you agree that whoever authored the ransom note probably killed the child?"
JOHN RAMSEY: "I agree."
PATSY RAMSEY: "I would agree with that."
[SIZE=-2]Source: the Larry King Live show - May 31, 2000 - CNN cable channel" (courtesy of http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/note/)
[/SIZE]

If it was truth flowing from their mouths, they were safe in saying it. If an 'intruder' was ever charged and convicted, they'd be right. If they were the perpetrators, they were right. And if they were ever charged, they knew there would be enough evidence to convict, so it didn't matter that they had said it.

But, if they knew Burke was responsible and they were covering, were they also saying he wrote the note?? Or were they willing to cover for him to the point of saying one of them was the killer if connected as the author of the note?