KY - Third Graders Handcuffed in School, Covington, Federal Lawsuit Filed Aug 2015

[Woodland]

Just to clarify...you mean some people posting don't like what the officer did but still think it's okay?

That's the message I get - no condemnation regarding the officers actions as that it what LE does, apparently. This is how LE will treat these same kids when they are adults, unless of course all their problems as a child can be fixed and will disappear when they are adults.

 

[bluesneakers]

Just to clarify...you mean some people posting don't like what the officer did but still think it's okay?

I don't understand it either.

 

[JeannaT]

Here we go again the police can do no wrong.:shakehead:

The poor gutless, pathetic, coward cop was afraid of getting hit by a 52 pound eight year old, so he had no choice but to handcuff the kid in violation of state laws.

Both the students have experienced severe mental health issues as a result of the incidents. The only lesson the kids learned is that the police are their enemy, and to fear them.

Really? If a child can't endure that, without experiencing "severe mental health issues as a result" we need to be gravely, gravely concerned for our children.

If the truth of it is more these were mentally ill children and because of that, bumps in the road cause them great distress, I think I would believe that. But I don't believe - at all - that this treatment would actually be the cause of mental health issues.

We make a mistake when we think our children are made of jelly. They aren't. A child who never has to endure bumps in the road will not grow up to be well-adjusted, and will be unable to handle the stresses of life. I don't believe for a minute that typical children, if their parents said "well I'm shocked you tried to punch a cop, what did you learn from this?", the child wouldn't be able to quickly put this in perspective.

Honestly. As a child did you not have incidents that were scary to you, and you were humiliated? And you overcame it pretty quickly and learned not to put yourself in that situation again? I can count about a dozen of those incidents, probably more. Kids who are wrapped in cotton wool, who aren't allowed to benefit from harsh experiences, don't do well. When parents wail and rend their hair and clothing when a child is taught a lesson, the child learns life should be a big huge bowl of cherries, regardless of their behavior.

I don't know how old you are, or what your life experiences have been, but healthy normal adults grow out of kids who were forced to struggle a little bit, and endure some hardships. That's how we got the "greatest generation". IMHO.

 

[Woodland]

Really? If a child can't endure that, without experiencing "severe mental health issues as a result" we need to be gravely, gravely concerned for our children.

If the truth of it is more these were mentally ill children and because of that, bumps in the road cause them great distress, I think I would believe that. But I don't believe - at all - that this treatment would actually be the cause of mental health issues.

We make a mistake when we think our children are made of jelly. They aren't. A child who never has to endure bumps in the road will not grow up to be well-adjusted, and will be unable to handle the stresses of life. I don't believe for a minute that typical children, if their parents said "well I'm shocked you tried to punch a cop, what did you learn from this?", the child wouldn't be able to quickly put this in perspective.

Honestly. As a child did you not have incidents that were scary to you, and you were humiliated? And you overcame it pretty quickly and learned not to put yourself in that situation again? I can count about a dozen of those incidents, probably more. Kids who are wrapped in cotton wool, who aren't allowed to benefit from harsh experiences, don't do well. When parents wail and rend their hair and clothing when a child is taught a lesson, the child learns life should be a big huge bowl of cherries, regardless of their behavior.

I don't know how old you are, or what your life experiences have been, but healthy normal adults grow out of kids who were forced to struggle a little bit, and endure some hardships. That's how we got the "greatest generation". IMHO.

BBM

That's not what happened here.

 

[JeannaT]

It has already not ended well. The kids are going to be traumatized and afraid of cops for their rest of lives.

I personally don't believe that. Children can be very resilient. Just because an incident occurs, doesn't mean there's lifelong damage. None of us would get out of childhood with an intact psyche if you can't get through that without crumbling completely. I'm sorry. I don't get parents who try to protect their children from consequences of trying to slug a cop. I don't know these kids, and would be further interested in whether that cuffing actually caused pain. I've certainly seen kids lock their elbows behind their backs, or in other ways put their arms in that position, but maybe being held there actually did hurt. I don't know, and would be interested in that information. I've also seen kids whine and moan you're hurting me you're hurting me when the parent is putting pressure on their forearm. Doesn't hurt.

 

[LonghornSpeakEasy]

...
Usually, in elementary, the mere presence of a cop will insure perfect behavior. I know when we did the Dare program, kids would behave 100% when the cop was leading the program.

RSBM

You know the more I think about this, the above statement is really true...especially for a child this age. UNLESS the child's special needs was at the root of his behavior. Is he for sure a special needs kids? If so, does it state his disability anywhere? Many of my kiddos with severe language delays often have behavioral issues because they do not understand indirect requests, can't follow multi-step directions, understand negatives, etc. and when asked to explain their behavior, they can't understand the questions or formulate appropriate responses. I can tell you if this child had a language delay, it's possible he didn't understand a word the officer said. Then there's kids with sensory issues, autism, etc.

ETA: okay, maybe I got a little off topic but I just saw some of my kids that would be acting like that because they were totally overwhelmed. On the other hand, we don't have the whole story....and transference

 

[JeannaT]

BBM

That's not what happened here.

I know. It's certainly NOT what happened here. The parents are suing, and are enraged, and in my opinion that only adds to the trauma.

I may sound like I don't have sensitivity to kids, but the exact opposite is true. I love kids, and have participated in antibullying, my own kids are sweet and well-adjusted adults, although we had some issues along the way that hopefully they learned from. I just think that if we don't expect kids to be able to take some degree of unpleasant experiences as a result of their inappropriate behaviors, we're giving up on them.

 

[Woodland]

I know. It's certainly NOT what happened here. The parents are suing, and are enraged, and in my opinion that only adds to the trauma.

I may sound like I don't have sensitivity to kids, but the exact opposite is true. I love kids, and have participated in antibullying, my own kids are sweet and well-adjusted adults, although we had some issues along the way that hopefully they learned from. I just think that if we don't expect kids to be able to take some degree of unpleasant experiences as a result of their inappropriate behaviors, we're giving up on them.

Were your kids ever handcuffed by a cop? Mine are well adjusted as well - no handcuffing as a bump in the road.

And well, yeah, I do hear a lack of sensitivity to this special needs child. Jmo.

 

[BlueShoe]

Humiliation of children breeds hatred. Not a good thing. Of course, many children are not damaged by being humiliated. But it is still not a good method. Much better to treat them in respectful ways while letting them know there are consequences for bad behavior. And giving them consequences which might not be desired but are neither humiliating nor physically painful.

 

[human]

The following is solely my own opinion, informed by my experience as the parent of a student with disabilities as well as sharing with other parents/professionals in similar situations at conferences, etc.

Frequently a student with disabilities (SWD) or having an individual education plan (IEP) has something of a target on their back. Back in the day, such children were frequently, and quite easily, moved into "special" situations (room down the hall, other building, and shockingly for some, no education at all). The term disability is fairly loose, encompassing a wide range of conditions that interfere with the educational process, or learning. These conditions may be cognitive (relating to intelligence or learning ability), physical (including asthma, blindness, deafness, paralysis, etc, etc). The largest category of SWD is those with a Specific Learning Disability (SLD)--something I find ironic because these are anything but specific. Then there is the grouping of emotionally or behaviorally disordered (with their own alphabet soup of categories).

As I said, historically there has been a preference for geographic, out-of-sight-out-of-mind, cures. Identification was merely the preamble to moving the kid along. Unfortunately this did little to ensure that SWD as a group were well, or even adequately educated. And I would suggest that this was despite some incredibly caring and dedicated professionals working in those hideaways down the hall with all the kids from grades 3-6, with all kinds of diagnoses, and precious little in the way of resources.

Some schools and districts have paid attention to the research and done very well at moving those kids back with their peers, supported by those same trained and caring professionals. In other instances there have been stand-offs. The special ed teachers fear becoming irrelevant. The regular ed teachers fear being overwhelmed. But the laws regarding education in the "least restrictive environment" (LRE) offer some broad loopholes. One of these is that if the district can make a case that a kid "needs" a more restrictive environment, then they are back on the track to the old traditional special ed room (sometimes now cleverly renamed the "resource room."). All of which leads to my general observation that sometimes there are some profound factors at play that lead to kids being escalated rather than de-escalated in their classrooms. Or learning needs being ignored, leading to frustration, leading to acting out, etc. Send the kid to the office. Call the resource officer. Restrain. Handcuff.

This folks, is not about an officer out of line. It is about a system.

The child gets an IEP. The parent(s) have to sign and agree. If they do not agree, the plan cannot be implemented without a court order. Parents can modify what the plan is. Interventions have to be spelled out as to what can be done if the child does not behave appropriately.

 

[JeannaT]

Were your kids ever handcuffed by a cop? Mine are well adjusted as well - no handcuffing as a bump in the road.

And well, yeah, I do hear a lack of sensitivity to this special needs child. Jmo.

I choose not to answer the one about the handcuffs. ;D I don't think handcuffing is the worst thing that can happen to a person, by far, so I'll let it go at that.

I don't know the specifics of this child, and what special needs he specifically has and I guess it's not really the public's business so we may not hear.

I don't think "sensitivity" is all it's cracked up to be, all the time. Sometimes being overly sensitive leads to overly sensitive - ie, generally unhappy children.

In the last half hour or so, I've been thinking of the ways I've reacted when my kids have been unfairly treated. One time we were at a private park and my son and his friend were chasing each other around and a peacock got in the way of their game and the poor peacock shrieked and flew off. They were being a little rowdy, but it was an outdoor park after all. So the owner came up and reamed them both out, yelling in their faces that they would be kicked out if he ever caught them harassing the animals again, and he doesn't tolerate cruel children. I was sitting at a picnic table 20 or so feet away with other moms. I had seen the whole thing. My son said, meekly and respectfully, "we were chasing each other and didn't see the peacock". The man yelled again don't let me catch you doing that again and stomped off. The kids came to the table, crestfallen and with tears in their eyes, and I said "you did the right thing. You said respectfully that you weren't chasing the bird, and you weren't. But can you see from the owner's viewpoint? Can you see he thought you were being mean to his beloved birds?" And they got it. Another time my much older son, a junior in high school, had this horrid spanish teacher who called a conference between me, my son, and the principal to deal with my son's horrible lying behavior. My poor sweet son. He had never had an issue with a teacher before, and I don't know what was going on here. The woman was a nut, and may have been struggling with mental illness, I don't know. At the end of a very awful meeting, where my son was respectful the whole time, the principal asked after the teacher left if he wanted a reassignment to another teacher. He did. On the way out, I asked him what he learned from this whole thing and he said well, I think I learned Mrs. Lenore probably wasn't gettin' any sex. I laughed so hard.

This is already way too long but I thought of about 5 more incidents where my kids had to deal with unfair treatment, and recover. How will this boy learn to recover, if he's not told what he did was wrong, and next time don't punch at a cop?

You know what they say - what a parent can do that helps their child most is not what they do for the child, but what they teach the child to do for themselves.

Again, I don't mean to sound like I'm blaming this child for being handcuffed, but rather am dismayed that he's not expected to be able to pick up and move on from this with coping skills.

 

[human]

When I was a teacher in an elementary school, a few years ago a child that was labelled at that time as emotionally disturbed pushed a teacher down in the hall. Not his teacher. The teacher broke her arm.

She sued the parents and I think she won. It was so long ago that I forget what happened exactly as far as the lawsuit.

The children in schools have serious issues. One year there were three third graders who had been hospitalized for suicide attempts during Easter break.

I do not agree with the handcuffs.,But special education is incredibly expensive and there is not enough reimbursement from the Feds.

I have a friend who works in the school in a residential treatment center for kids up to age 11. The housekeeper is continually washing feces off of the walls in the kid's bedrooms.

Because of privacy issues, the public does not get to hear what kind of problems there are in the schoolday. There simply needs to be more staff to handle these children . There are methods that do work.

But I do not know where the most disturbed of children are placed.

 

[human]

I choose not to answer the one about the handcuffs. ;D I don't think handcuffing is the worst thing that can happen to a person, by far, so I'll let it go at that.

I don't know the specifics of this child, and what special needs he specifically has and I guess it's not really the public's business so we may not hear.

I don't think "sensitivity" is all it's cracked up to be, all the time. Sometimes being overly sensitive leads to overly sensitive - ie, generally unhappy children.

In the last half hour or so, I've been thinking of the ways I've reacted when my kids have been unfairly treated. One time we were at a private park and my son and his friend were chasing each other around and a peacock got in the way of their game and the poor peacock shrieked and flew off. They were being a little rowdy, but it was an outdoor park after all. So the owner came up and reamed them both out, yelling in their faces that they would be kicked out if he ever caught them harassing the animals again, and he doesn't tolerate cruel children. I was sitting at a picnic table 20 or so feet away with other moms. I had seen the whole thing. My son said, meekly and respectfully, "we were chasing each other and didn't see the peacock". The man yelled again don't let me catch you doing that again and stomped off. The kids came to the table, crestfallen and with tears in their eyes, and I said "you did the right thing. You said respectfully that you weren't chasing the bird, and you weren't. But can you see from the owner's viewpoint? Can you see he thought you were being mean to his beloved birds?" And they got it. Another time my much older son, a junior in high school, had this horrid spanish teacher who called a conference between me, my son, and the principal to deal with my son's horrible lying behavior. The woman was a nut, and may have been struggling with mental illness, I don't know. At the end of a very awful meeting, where my son was respectful the whole time, the principal asked after the teacher left if he wanted a reassignment to another teacher. He did. On the way out, I asked him what he learned from this whole thing and he said well, I think I learned Mrs. Lenore probably wasn't gettin' any sex. I laughed so hard.

This is already way too long but I thought of about 5 more incidents where my kids had to deal with unfair treatment, and recover. How will this boy learn to recover, if he's not told what he did was wrong, and next time don't punch at a cop?

You know what they say - what a parent can do that helps their child most is not what they do for the child, but what they teach the child to do for themselves.

Again, I don't mean to sound like I'm blaming this child for being handcuffed, but rather am dismayed that he's not expected to be able to pick up and move on from this with coping skills.

Being handcuffed is really extreme, though.

One time I had a very upset child. It was years ago before I knew that things going on in the home an be hidden . When she lost it by throwing things around the room, I removed the rest of the children and had them go with someone else while the girl raged. After a week on positive interventon strategies, she was fine the rest of the year.

Later I learned the mother was a real piece of work. The mother who presented so sweet and concerned to me.

 

[JeannaT]

Being handcuffed is really extreme, though.

One time I had a very upset child. It was years ago before I knew that things going on in the home an be hidden . When she lost it by throwing things around the room, I removed the rest of the children and had them go with someone else while the girl raged. After a week on positive interventon strategies, she was fine the rest of the year.

Later I learned the mother was a real piece of work. The mother who presented so sweet and concerned to me.

It is extreme, I agree, if in this case it actually was painful. I still would like to know that. I've certainly seen kids put their hands behind their backs and grab one elbow and let the other arm swing and it looks contorted but they're completely comfortable.

And I do agree if you have a child in the classroom who is completely out of control, it bears inspecting what's going on with the family. Most kids are fairly easy to control with an experienced teacher.

 

[Sulamith]

Really? If a child can't endure that, without experiencing "severe mental health issues as a result" we need to be gravely, gravely concerned for our children.

If the truth of it is more these were mentally ill children and because of that, bumps in the road cause them great distress, I think I would believe that. But I don't believe - at all - that this treatment would actually be the cause of mental health issues.

We make a mistake when we think our children are made of jelly. They aren't. A child who never has to endure bumps in the road will not grow up to be well-adjusted, and will be unable to handle the stresses of life. I don't believe for a minute that typical children, if their parents said "well I'm shocked you tried to punch a cop, what did you learn from this?", the child wouldn't be able to quickly put this in perspective.

Honestly. As a child did you not have incidents that were scary to you, and you were humiliated? And you overcame it pretty quickly and learned not to put yourself in that situation again? I can count about a dozen of those incidents, probably more. Kids who are wrapped in cotton wool, who aren't allowed to benefit from harsh experiences, don't do well. When parents wail and rend their hair and clothing when a child is taught a lesson, the child learns life should be a big huge bowl of cherries, regardless of their behavior.

I don't know how old you are, or what your life experiences have been, but healthy normal adults grow out of kids who were forced to struggle a little bit, and endure some hardships. That's how we got the "greatest generation". IMHO.

I don't consider getting armcuffed by some clueless cop a bump in the road at all. Failing a test is a bump in the road at that little guy's age.I When I was in the first grade my teacher slammed my head against the desk for giving the wrong answer to a question. I still remember you Mrs. Gray from Blenman Elementary School! I was scared and humiliated. I did not put myself in any situation at all. I was very timid and that is probably why she picked on me. *Bad words*

 

[JeannaT]

I don't consider getting armcuffed by some clueless cop a bump in the road at all. Failing a test is a bump in the road at that little guy's age.I When I was in the first grade my teacher slammed my head against the desk for giving the wrong answer to a question. I still remember you Mrs. Gray from Blenman Elementary School! I was scared and humiliated. I did not put myself in any situation at all. I was very timid and that is probably why she picked on me. *Bad words*

Well, I don't consider failing a test as a bump in the road. I consider that good feedback.

But I'm sorry about what Mrs. Gray did to you. I don't know how old you are, but I'm in my mid 50's, and teachers were allowed to brutalize kids back in the day. It is an odd thing - I remember meek kids being picked on by teachers. Gosh, to have the gift of a meek kid in a classroom! I can't understand why any teacher would be mean to them, but I've seen it.

My guess is, you're a deeper and better person with perspective on life than if you didn't experience Mrs. Gray.

 

[human]

If that was true, abused children would be the best healthiest people of all.

 

[JeannaT]

If that was true, abused children would be the best hewlthiest people of all.

I have to say this. I know people who have had a really really easy path in life, and they are boring. BORING. The people I know who have had to overcome adversity are the most interesting, successful people I know.

BUT, I'm not talking about systemic abuse in the home. I'm talking about people who have had to overcome adversity outside the home, with support from within their families.

Children who are abused and neglected from birth, by their mothers, IMHO are doomed from the start. Horrible. God help the motherless child.

 

[Margo/Mom]

The child gets an IEP. The parent(s) have to sign and agree. If they do not agree, the plan cannot be implemented without a court order. Parents can modify what the plan is. Interventions have to be spelled out as to what can be done if the child does not behave appropriately.

True enough, in theory. As a parent you do your best to get the most appropriate IEP you can. But the reality remains, there are ways an unwilling teacher/school/district can force the issue. As I mentioned above, an adult can escalate a stuation. What starts as not following directions ends up as elbowing a cop and being put in cuffs. Might take 2 weeks to get the IEP team assembled to review. Meanwhile there are more incidents, calls home (or to work), suspension. Not to mention what sometimes passes for a BIP (I have seen some that are nothing more than a road map for escalation) is not necessarily helpful. If the district is of a mind to get rid of a kid--to a more restrictive environment--they can be very disagreeable until they get their way.

 

[JeannaT]

True enough, in theory. As a parent you do your best to get the most appropriate IEP you can. But the reality remains, there are ways an unwilling teacher/school/district can force the issue. As I mentioned above, an adult can escalate a stuation. What starts as not following directions ends up as elbowing a cop and being put in cuffs. Might take 2 weeks to get the IEP team assembled to review. Meanwhile there are more incidents, calls home (or to work), suspension. Not to mention what sometimes passes for a BIP (I have seen some that are nothing more than a road map for escalation) is not necessarily helpful. If the district is of a mind to get rid of a kid--to a more restrictive environment--they can be very disagreeable until they get their way.

I completely agree. I did have a child who in elementary school had an IEP. He was 504. He's now a dean's honor roll college student, so thank God all turned out well and his teachers were SO helpful in his success. He is a fabulous young adult, as are so many who had an IEP in early grades. God bless the broken road, as the song says.

But I have seen districts try to get rid of kids who they could not tolerate in the classroom. Their behavior was so disruptive that no teacher would accept them, and it was time to move them out of the traditional classroom. Parents wouldn't support the school by helping teach the child how to interact in the school, and they would in fact threaten to sue.

I get it. The kids are intolerable, and the parents are even worse.