Kyron Horman General Discussion thread 2020 - 2022

[Vern]

One of the many insinuations against Terri has to do with her parking at the two Fred Meyer stores she visited, the first one ca 9:00-9:15, the other ca 9:30-10:00. Here's a passage from the Rebecca Morris book Boy Missing:



From the same book:



So the implication is that Terri parked far away to prevent people and cameras from seeing what was inside the truck - Kyron, one would assume.

Back on August 11th 2010, the police released a flier with a set of images of a truck in various parking lots. A websleuther discovered embedded text to the two images from the Fred Meyer stores:



So I was curious just how far away these locations were from the store. I lined up the photos using Google Maps Street View as best as I could and marked the spots where Terri parked according to MCSO. First Fred Meyer at Imbrie/Cornelius Pass:


View attachment 369243

Next we have Fred Meyer at Walker Road:

View attachment 369244

I must say neither position is extremely distant to me, certainly not "as far from the stores' front doors as possible". There are many spots further away in both cases, especially Imbrie. Also, even with only half-full lots (as in my screenshots) you can see in the images that the areas where Terri parked are far from "deserted". Both places strike me as exactly the place you would park if you didn't want to be right in the thick of it, but also not too far away from the doors.

I think this can be chalked up to exaggeration.

Another interesting bit is that at both places, but Imbrie in particular, the distance would not shield the car from insight as customers could and would drive by on their way in and out. If a living Kyron was in the truck he would easily have been spotted when Terri and the baby were in the stores.

A dead Kyron in the truck comes with its own problems, including the fact that the police went over the truck and found nothing.

Thanks for the photos. As a driver of an F150 that is longer than your average car, I always try to find a spot that I can 'drive through' to use the two spots as it's length has it hanging into the backside of the rear parking spot. That means that I park away from the store as

a) usually I can't find a drive-trough of two spots back-to-back closer to the store - especially so at prime hours of operation.

b) And, I don't like to take two spots up close to the store as it means someone else has to park further because my truck is taking up two. I guess one could park a smart car behind me in most mall lots. Trucks are wider and longer than your average vehicle, so how one parks their car is irrelevant really. When I'm in the Beamer, I park as close as I can get.

c) I often park furthest from the main parking area and along the edge like Terri's vehicle is when the spots are narrow or the lot is busy or full (hey Walmart!). It's just easier and safer to manouver the truck around. Terri was also very fit, fitter than I, at this time so her being willing to walking with a baby doesn't strike me as some sign of guilt either. It's all relative.

That all being stated, I'm not suspcious of all those other vehicles parked where she apparently parked either ... lots of empty, closer spots to stores in your photos, yet there they are ... parked so far away. I don't believe they are parked there to avoid cameras while covering criminal activity. They, are. just. parked.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I'm confused -- if the teacher didn't say a word, how were they told to put them all in a corner?

Seems to be some conflict in the phrases.

jmho ymmv lrr

YMMV but my interpretation of the above phrases is 1) "the teacher didn't say a word" about doing a tour of the science projects and the children doing their presentations on the 3rd; instead 2) "we were told to put them all in a corner". (On the 3rd, the teacher told the parents to put the projects in the corner. Terri saw other projects there, as well).

IMO, Terri was trying to justify her reasons for missing the science fair.

She said she thought it was on the 4th, but it had been on the 3rd.

I don't believe she would not have known what day the science fair was scheduled to occur. For one thing, Kyron could talk. He was 7 years old. Surely, the 5-star "Mom" would have asked him about his day.

IMO, she deliberately missed the tour and the presentations on the 3rd because she wasn't interested.

On the 4th, with a new agenda, she blamed the teacher for the mixup and escorted Kyron on their own private tour. Kyron hasn't been seen since.

IMO, this is an integral part of understanding how she got Kyron out of the school.

I'll repost the transcription below adding Dr. Phil's questions and link it again. In total, the video is only about 5 minutes long.

I hope everyone will watch it and hear her for themselves.

Transcription of Terri on Dr. Phil at about 1:25 minutes in:

Dr. Phil: The science fair was actually the day before.

Terri: Right.

Dr. Phil: You thought it was this day, but it was the day before.

Terri: Right. So, they, we were told to bring, bring the items on the 3rd of which was a Thursday, which was his diorama and his, his portfolio. And so, we took the truck and then we went to do it then. And that was about 8 o’clock in the morning; dropped him off for that. And the, the, the teacher didn’t say a word about—we jus, we were told to put them all in the corner. And so, we put them all in the corner and I saw the pile of other projects and so I had just assumed it would be the next day. She didn’t say anything to me. I was all the way in the classroom with him at that time. So, by the time I got there and take the photo of him in front of his project I’m assuming that we’re gonna do, that everyone was gonna do a tour and then we're gonna, they’re gonna do, like, their little presentations but that wasn’t the case.

Dr. Phil: That had already been done.

Terri: Right.

Dr. Phil: So you weren’t there for the actual presentation but you saw it the next day.

Terri: Right.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

YMMV but my interpretation of the above phrases is 1) "the teacher didn't say a word" about doing a tour of the science projects and the children doing their presentations on the 3rd; instead 2) "we were told to put them all in a corner". (On the 3rd, the teacher told the parents to put the projects in the corner. Terri saw other projects there, as well).

IMO, Terri was trying to justify her reasons for missing the science fair.

She said she thought it was on the 4th, but it had been on the 3rd.

The science fair was on June 4th.

A billboard outside reads: "June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45." - source

I don't believe she would not have known what day the science fair was scheduled to occur. For one thing, Kyron could talk. He was 7 years old. Surely, the 5-star "Mom" would have asked him about his day.

IMO, she deliberately missed the tour and the presentations on the 3rd because she wasn't interested.

There was no tour on the 3rd. There were presentations, however, but Terri believed they would also hold presentations on the 4th.

On the 4th, with a new agenda, she blamed the teacher for the mixup and escorted Kyron on their own private tour. Kyron hasn't been seen since.

Why would she do that? The tours hadn't been moved or cancelled. They still took place on June 4th.

Transcription of Terri on Dr. Phil at about 1:25 minutes in:

Dr. Phil: The science fair was actually the day before.

Terri: Right.

Dr. Phil: You thought it was this day, but it was the day before.

So yeah, my low opinion of Dr Phil is validated, since he simplifies the whole thing beyond reason here, but Terri clarifies it in the following part. I've bolded the important parts.

Terri: Right. So, they, we were told to bring, bring the items on the 3rd of which was a Thursday, which was his diorama and his, his portfolio. And so, we took the truck and then we went to do it then. And that was about 8 o’clock in the morning; dropped him off for that. And the, the, the teacher didn’t say a word about—we jus, we were told to put them all in the corner. And so, we put them all in the corner and I saw the pile of other projects and so I had just assumed it would be the next day. She didn’t say anything to me. I was all the way in the classroom with him at that time. So, by the time I got there and take the photo of him in front of his project I’m assuming that we’re gonna do, that everyone was gonna do a tour and then we're gonna, they’re gonna do, like, their little presentations but that wasn’t the case.

Dr. Phil: That had already been done.

Terri: Right.

Dr. Phil: So you weren’t there for the actual presentation but you saw it the next day.

Terri: Right.

The tours were still on. TP's account is a clear example. The presentations on the 4th, however, did not take place. Either they had never been intended to or it was changed by the school. Given the novel nature of the science fair (the first IB fair), it would hardly be surprising if there was confusion.

Of course, if Terri had thought there'd be a presentation after the tour, that would explain why she'd think it a good time to take the diorama home afterwards, prompting the use of the truck. With no presentation, Terri likely thought loitering around the school for an hour without getting to see Kyron at the end, would be a bother. Hence leaving and sending an email asking when she could pick up the project later.

 

[OddOneOut]

The science fair was on June 4th.

A billboard outside reads: "June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45." - source

Wasn't Kyron supposed to be in the talent show too?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Wasn't Kyron supposed to be in the talent show too?

It says so here. Of course, we don't know if he was doing something big, something on his own, or just being part of another's act. And we also don't know if he told anyone home about it. (That is unless the info is out there and I just haven't found it, which is far from impossible.) I remember "talent shows" from my school days that were for the school only, but here at least it seemed to have been open for parents.

I do think it's interesting that Kyron signed up for the talent show, considering pretty much all his parents and extended family saw him as chronically shy. But this anecdote and others kind of makes me think Kyron was getting bolder and more out there in the school environment, and that his parents had yet to see that change in him. It's common with a lot of kids who are shy at an early age, and it is sad that Kyron got stopped in his evolution.

 

[ReadySet]

Ordinarily, it wouldn't matter how I parked on any given day.

Unless, I was the last person to see and be with my step-son before he disappeared.

Then everything I did would matter.

Tick Tock Terri! Tick Tock!

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Ordinarily, it wouldn't matter how I parked on any given day.

Unless, I was the last person to see and be with my step-son before he disappeared.

Then everything I did would matter.

Tick Tock Terri! Tick Tock!

But it has to actually be suspicious. Currently it seems like a lot of public opinion put the cart before the horse. It wasn't Terri's suspicious parking that made people believe in her guilt, it was people's belief in her guilt that made them think the parking was suspicious. That's why Rebecca Morris had to exaggerate the distance and emptiness of Terri's parking choices.

 

[OddOneOut]

But it has to actually be suspicious. Currently it seems like a lot of public opinion put the cart before the horse. It wasn't Terri's suspicious parking that made people believe in her guilt, it was people's belief in her guilt that made them think the parking was suspicious. That's why Rebecca Morris had to exaggerate the distance and emptiness of Terri's parking choices.

Exactly, I see nothing suspicious about Terri's actions that day. There is nothing there that points to her abducting Kyron. We don't know who last saw Kyron because we don't know who took him. The person that took him is "the last person to see Kyron." I'd like to know more about the children who were seen outside that morning and any adults near the door they went out.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Not being able to account for 2-plus hours of her time on the day her stepson disappeared--what would that be if not suspicious?

Explaining she was driving around the "hilly roads" hoping an 18-month-old would go to sleep isn't really a sufficient excuse for law enforcement.

It sounds like something a teenage girl might make up after she had stayed out too late. IMO

 

[ReadySet]

But it has to actually be suspicious. Currently it seems like a lot of public opinion put the cart before the horse. It wasn't Terri's suspicious parking that made people believe in her guilt, it was people's belief in her guilt that made them think the parking was suspicious. That's why Rebecca Morris had to exaggerate the distance and emptiness of Terri's parking choices.

Nothing I did would have to be suspicious on the face of it. Everything I did would have to be investigated.

I don't know how each person in the public reached whatever conclusion they did. That would be an assumption on my part. As I've said before I believed Terri was innocent at first. We dont know the thought process each person went through to reach their conclusions.

If LE, in any given case, said the last known person to see and be with victim did and said many different things, but we don't need to look at x, y, and z because those are things anyone would do, I would question that.

Terri's isn't just anybody.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Not being able to account for 2-plus hours of her time on the day her stepson disappeared--what would that be if not suspicious?

Explaining she was driving around the "hilly roads" hoping an 18-month-old would go to sleep isn't really a sufficient excuse for law enforcement.

It sounds like something a teenage girl might make up after she had stayed out too late. IMO

2+ hours? 10:10 to 11:39 is less than 90 minutes, and that's the maximum. It may well be less.

And yet again, we've had plenty of people on these very threads say that they drive around with their children to calm them or try to get them to sleep. I wouldn't call them teenage girls making bad excuses.

Now, if this is an action plenty of parents take, is it actually suspicious? Or is the action considered suspicious solely because Terri was the one who did it, and so many had already decided on her guilt?

 

[Vern]

Not being able to account for 2-plus hours of her time on the day her stepson disappeared--what would that be if not suspicious?

Explaining she was driving around the "hilly roads" hoping an 18-month-old would go to sleep isn't really a sufficient excuse for law enforcement.

It sounds like something a teenage girl might make up after she had stayed out too late. IMO

And yet, driving around with sick or colicly babies is something that is done daily by thousands of parents as many infants and toddlers find this soothing. That, in and of itself is not suspicious either. It's what she stated she was doing. It may not be sufficient for LE, but it's what she's got. LE has nothng to prove differently.

Gawd forbid my ex-husband be murdered while I'm home at night alone and asleep in my bed and no one could verify that they saw me there--- else I'd be "guilty" too if that were the actual standard LE had to utilize; thank goodness it is not.

Nor is the fact that she gave them the palces she drove, they asked the public for sightings of her/the truck and yet ... nada. They didn't limit the ask for sighting to the places she gave them either. So, no one saw her so those who believe that she is guilty use that fact and the fact that no cell tower (less Sauvie) picked up her signal as a sign of her guilt ... No matter where she drove, no one noticed - whether it was where she said she was or anywhere else.

No cell tower picked up her signal except that tower on Sauvie Island and we all know where that got LE to wrongly focus.

"She wasn't seen by anyone" works both ways ... she wasn't seen where she drove the baby, nor was she seen by anyone driving somewhere else where some would believe she got rid of Kyron. No reported sightings - either with Kyron or without. Either driving the baby or elsewhere. It sure doesn't prove she's guilty of anything other than bad luck of having just the single ping and no sightings by anybody --- no matter where she was. And, obviously she was somewhere.

 

[Vern]

2+ hours? 10:10 to 11:39 is less than 90 minutes, and that's the maximum. It may well be less.

And yet again, we've had plenty of people on these very threads say that they drive around with their children to calm them or try to get them to sleep. I wouldn't call them teenage girls making bad excuses.

Now, if this is an action plenty of parents take, is it actually suspicious? Or is the action considered suspicious solely because Terri was the one who did it, and so many had already decided on her guilt?

RBBM,

Thanks for pointing that 90 minutes out again.

The gap has been posted as longer than the actual times so many times that it's become 'factual' to many now as have many things. This case desperately needs a restart -- with only facts verified/released by LE discussed and considered. There's so many personal biases at play, within and outside of LE, that I fear Kyron will never be found without that reset.

 

[OddOneOut]

Not being able to account for 2-plus hours of her time on the day her stepson disappeared--what would that be if not suspicious?

Explaining she was driving around the "hilly roads" hoping an 18-month-old would go to sleep isn't really a sufficient excuse for law enforcement.

It sounds like something a teenage girl might make up after she had stayed out too late. IMO

I see nothing suspicious here. Most people would probably have trouble proving where they were at specific times. As far as the driving around, my father did this with one of my sisters because the doctor told him to. He did it routinely because it made her fall asleep.

 

[OddOneOut]

The worst part of this is that a pedophile may still be out there preying on other children. If a pedophile took Kyron, as I suspect, Kyron may not have been his/her first victim. This could be a serial abductor. I just watched a special on Madeleine McCann the other night. No one suspected CB of taking Madeleine. Now they not only suspect him in her disappearance, but they found evidence that he may have abducted many other children as well as raping three or more women.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I don't think we need to worry that a pedophile took Kyron. IMO

Terri, DeDe--where is Kyron?

 

[ReadySet]

2+ hours? 10:10 to 11:39 is less than 90 minutes, and that's the maximum. It may well be less.

And yet again, we've had plenty of people on these very threads say that they drive around with their children to calm them or try to get them to sleep. I wouldn't call them teenage girls making bad excuses.

Now, if this is an action plenty of parents take, is it actually suspicious? Or is the action considered suspicious solely because Terri was the one who did it, and so many had already decided on her guilt?

If I drove around for an hour or two and was only able to tell generally where I was but not specifically, it wouldn't be important. But if another one of my children were missing, it would be.

We don't have any data on when and how each person in the public decided about Terri's guilt or lack thereof; or if driving around or parking affected their decision.

 

[ReadySet]

And yet, driving around with sick or colicly babies is something that is done daily by thousands of parents as many infants and toddlers find this soothing. That, in and of itself is not suspicious either. It's what she stated she was doing. It may not be sufficient for LE, but it's what she's got. LE has nothng to prove differently.

Gawd forbid my ex-husband be murdered while I'm home at night alone and asleep in my bed and no one could verify that they saw me there--- else I'd be "guilty" too if that were the actual standard LE had to utilize; thank goodness it is not.

Nor is the fact that she gave them the palces she drove, they asked the public for sightings of her/the truck and yet ... nada. They didn't limit the ask for sighting to the places she gave them either. So, no one saw her so those who believe that she is guilty use that fact and the fact that no cell tower (less Sauvie) picked up her signal as a sign of her guilt ... No matter where she drove, no one noticed - whether it was where she said she was or anywhere else.

No cell tower picked up her signal except that tower on Sauvie Island and we all know where that got LE to wrongly focus.

"She wasn't seen by anyone" works both ways ... she wasn't seen where she drove the baby, nor was she seen by anyone driving somewhere else where some would believe she got rid of Kyron. No reported sightings - either with Kyron or without. Either driving the baby or elsewhere. It sure doesn't prove she's guilty of anything other than bad luck of having just the single ping and no sightings by anybody --- no matter where she was. And, obviously she was somewhere.

LE has never said Terri was guilty, they've never even named her a POI.

It was her own attorney who named her a defacto suspect; and a judge in her name change attempt.

We don't know everything people have reported to LE. We don't know what LE knows.

 

[Vern]

If I drove around for an hour or two and was only able to tell generally where I was but not specifically, I wouldn't be important. But if another one of my children were missing, it would be.

We don't have any data on when and how each person in the public decided about Terri's guilt or lack thereof; or if driving around or parking affected their decision.

<modsnip>

Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure that if Terri was aware at the time of her mindless driving that Kyron was missing and that she would 'need' an alibi, she'd have probably made better notes of those specifics too.

I certainly don't do that when my husband and I are out just jaunting around, but I could tell you generally where we went and general timings. Nor could most people for that matter give you actual specifics if they do not know that they should be keeping track of the minutae to alibi themselves later. It's totally normal behaviour not to note all those things in specifics. I imagine that's what Terri also did.

 

[Vern]

LE has never said Terri was guilty, they've never even named her a POI.

It was her own attorney who named her a defacto suspect; and a judge in her name change attempt.

We don't know everything people have reported to LE. We don't know what LE knows.

We've been here before. She certainly was treated as the de facto suspect by the media, posters here, loved ones of Kyron and the LE.

Her lawyer simply stated what LE didn't ... although everyone else stated it. There's NO surprise here. The lawyer just stated the facts of how she was being treated.