Kyron Horman General Discussion thread 2023 - 2026

[Truth Prevails]

But even Desiree claims she went on the tour with Kyron. She says Terri "made Ms Porter" take Kyron out of the group and out of the classroom at 8:15, despite the groups not forming for another 30 minutes.

Terri didn’t participate in the students’ tour. She left at 8:45 a.m. As is often said, her departure time has never been disputed.

Respectfully, may I suggest a clear reading of Desiree’s statements.

As always, just my opinion.

Why would GZ believe Terri was taking Kyron on a tour if the bell had rung and the groups were about to form?

How would we know what GZ believed or why she believed it? Her statements are determined by what she saw.

My opinion only.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Here’s another bit from the Dateline source:

Please see the snipped quote below. Strictly speaking, the parents’ tour was from 8:00 a.m until 9:00 a.m. and the students’ tour was from 9:00 a.m. until 10:00 a.m. (The 15 minutes between 8:45 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. was for the parents to leave the school and the children to return to their homerooms so they could be divided into their parent-led groups and be ready to start their tour at 9:00 a.m. The sound of the bell at 8:45 a.m. signaled the start of this change).

I suppose the statement by the host of the Dateline special could be considered technically correct as the parents’ tour was scheduled for 8:00 a.m. until 9:00 a.m. and Terri, woefully considered a parent, was leaving the parents’ tour around 8:45 a.m. Kyron was seen in the parking lot, leaving with Terri and his baby sister, around 8:50 a.m. Kyron Richard Horman was never seen again.

The various tours and times revolving around the science fair are confusing and that confusion overshadowed Kyron’s case for years, and maybe still does. It was also a big part of why Terri chose that particular morning to do what she did.

[Snipped] 8 a.m. Skyline Elementary, opens early so students and parents can tour the science fair. A billboard outside reads: "June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45." Kyron was to take part in both the expo/science fair and the talent show. Terri Moulton Horman arrives shortly afterward with her stepson, Kyron.
Kyron Horman: Timeline of events since boy's disappearance

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I think the convoluted and contrived scenario is the one that places Terri at the top of the stairs at 8:45 a.m. as she has a vision of the back of Kyron’s head almost at the door to his classroom, which is about 100’ away (or more). No one is postulating. The vision is all Terri's. Please see the link.

The hallway would not have been empty of people or objects. Kyron was 3’8” inches tall.

You think it's contrived that Terri, being roughly in Kaine's position in this clip, can see Kyron at the camera's position? A straight hallway, just looking down it, at such a short distance? I'd be astonished if she claimed she couldn't see him from that position.

Objects? Why would there be objects in the hallway, that is the main thoroughfare for people walking between the classrooms and the gym? And why is it unbelievable that the hallway wouldn't be stuffed wall-to-wall with people? None of this is unrealistic in the slightest.

This isn't convoluted or contrived.

Desiree is reliable. She will never stop looking for her son. We can bank on that. Justice for Kyron!

It was Desiree's contention that someone in Kaine's position couldn't see to where the camera is, because of "a wall that partially blocks the view" (Boy Missing ch 5)

Look at the clip, where is the wall?

Another curiosity of the book is that Desiree places the stairs at the gym by the "far east end of the hallway" (Boy Missing ch 5), and indeed that is how they were marked on the map used by Dr Phil for the appearance of the bioparents, and then Terri. Kyron's classroom was also misplaced on that map. Neither Kain nor Desiree remarked on the error, but Terri did. The "stairwell" on the map is the exit to the buses, not the stairwell by the gym.

The book citation is clear that as early as June 6, 2010, eyewitnesses placed Kyron outside the school in the parking lot with Terri. This was information not released to the general public at the time. Please note the word “privately”.

[Pg 76] Privately, Sheriff Staton shocked Desiree and Tony with other news. He told them Kyron had reportedly been seen by a student and an adult as he left the south entrance of the school with his stepmother. Terri and Kyron weren’t holding hands, but they were walking out together with [the baby]. The sheriff later backtracked on the statement, leaving Desiree and Tony confused.

“Boy Missing—The Search For Kyron Horman” by Rebecca Morris​

Actually, that isn't "placing Kyron in the parking lot". Even if this citation is accurate to what Staton actually said (and I don't believe it is) it doesn't say where the witnesses were or that they saw them beyond the south entrance. And then there is Staton's statement to the media on June 11th:

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

As I said, the quote from the book above appears to be built on Staton's message to the media on the same day (June 6th):

He was seen not, he was seen near his classroom, and the last point was down at the south entrance door of the school.

It does not appear to be compatible to Desiree's new statements from 2015.

Publicly, on June 9th, we had the first of young TP’s media appearances. The second was on June 14th. The child would certainly have made statements to law enforcement before his media appearances.

But those statements wouldn't change anything, would they? Staton has already, on June 6th, gone public with Kyron having been seen by a student at 9:00.

Does anyone believe law enforcement does not withhold information while they are actively investigating a case and for years afterward? I don’t want to disillusion anyone, but they do—all the time. Thus Sherrif Staton’s June 11th statement. He was probably concerned about lynch mobs forming. This was a high-profile case with people reacting strongly to Kyron’s disappearance. Everyone wanted answers.

Why would lynch mobs form when at no point until then (and indeed at no point until Desiree in 2015) had anyone, much less law enforcement made the claim that Kyron had been seen leaving the school with Terri? Or indeed leaving the school at all?

Released on the 18th of June, in unison with the first MCSO flyer picturing Terri and the F250:
Snipped: [Jun 18, 2010] “Terri is the last-known person to have seen him before he disappeared,” Multnomah County Sheriff’s Capt. Jason Gates said, contrary to previous reports of someone else who might have seen the boy afterward.
Investigators say Kyron’s family cooperating as search continues

And I agree, by the way. Law enforcement withholds info and misleads the public if they believe it is beneficial to the investigation. Which is where I believe the June 18th backtracking comes from. This is the same day the questionnaire with Terri and the white truck was released, which apparently caused much confusion among witnesses. Basically, from everything we can see, this is where it stops being an evidence-centric investigation and becomes a suspect-centric investigation. Going from trying to prove what happened to trying to prove Terri did it.

Terri only needed 10 minutes to get to the Fred Meyer, Hillsboro. Leaving the school grounds in the F250 at approximately 8:55 a.m. would have her arriving around 9:05 a.m. In her June 5th email, she said she had a receipt showing she was checking out at 9:12 a.m. That would give her about 7 minutes to go inside, discover the Motrin was out of stock, and buy a few small items to obtain a receipt.

The book confirms the 9:12 a.m. check-out time with CCTV footage showing her leaving the store. An interesting side note is that the book does not confirm the baby was inside the store with Terri. It says the baby was seen in an outdoor surveillance video in her car seat in back of Terri who was driving the F250. Due to the camera angle, no one could see Kyron’s booster seat. No one could confirm Kyron was inside the F250. Yet, Kyron had been seen leaving the school with Terri 20 to 25 minutes prior.

Two important questions arise: 1) Where was the baby when Terri was in the store; and more importantly 2) where was Kyron?

The answers are obvious, I think. 1) With Terri and 2) not in the truck. After all, she took the baby with her into the second Fred Meyer, why not the first? She parked in the middle of a large, public lot, where other customers would drive past. Leaving children alone and visible to everyone would definitely attract attention. But again, the baby causes problems for the actions Terri is supposed to have taken that morning, so she has to be removed from the equation somehow.

Approximately 7 to 10 minutes would be the time the baby was left alone in the F250 if she was not in the store with her mother and if Kyron was not in the F250 with her.

It was a major parking lot in front of a major store, and the truck was right in the middle of it. Forget CCTV, how could Terri plan for no one to notice the children inside?

What would they have charged her with? She was Kyron’s stepmother and had the right to take him from school.

Certainly some combination of kidnapping charges would have stuck because she wouldn’t tell anyone where Kyron was. Yes, they had probable cause for an arrest, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt for a conviction on kidnapping. She would have served a few years in prison.

If they had a clear charge of kidnapping beyond a reasonable doubt, they would take it. Nothing about that would prevent them from adding other charges later on. That's not even mentioning a trial and what information could emerge during it.

However, the goal was to find Kyron. Arresting her on kidnapping charges would not have made her reveal where he was. Or the name of anyone who had helped her. I think by leaving her free and observing her, keeping pressure on her, law enforcement believed they had a better chance of finding Kyron. Unfortunately, it didn’t work and the statute of limitations on kidnapping ran out.

Statute of limitations for crimes against minors is what, six years? Yet the investigation was dead in the water by 2011. By 2013 they were trying to persuade Dede to conduct a sting operation. By 2016 Terri was out of state. At no point did the MCSO realize they weren't getting results with their "pressure tactics"? And what is the ultimate pressure tactic if not criminal charges?

It just does not seem realistic or even precedented to me that LE would choose not to charge a person for the very serious charge of kidnapping if they had proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I've certainly never heard of any similar case.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Like you said, they're professionally written. I don't think it's a coincidence that they keep using the same words to describe GZ's statements - and that a clear reading of the statements is that GZ saw Kyron and Terri on one occasion, inside the classroom, somewhere between 8:15 and 8:30. The multiple visits are not supported by anything but a need to make Desiree's latter day claim about the photo being taken at 8:45 fit.

"Parent [GZ] said she last saw Kyron in the morning, when he posed in a classroom in front of his red-eyed tree frog science project. She said her daughter is one of Kyron s best friends and she knew him well." - KGW

"At 8:15 a.m., Skyline PTA President Gina Zimmerman arrived at the school and saw Kyron with his stepmother in front of his exhibit." - OregonLive

"[GZ] I remember seeing Kyron in front of his project, and Terri took a picture of him; took one with him in front of it, and then one with just the project alone." - Dateline

"[GZ] saw Terri take a photograph of Kyron standing in front of his tree frog exhibit." - Boy Missing, ch 4

In not one of the many quotes provided does it say the photo was taken at 8:15 a.m.

I note that 8:15 a.m. is now being muddled with 8:30 a.m., but there is no confirmation the picture was taken at 8:30 a.m., either.

I feel confident to type that I have completed not one, not two, but several clear readings of the listed articles and more. Over the years.

Desiree doesn’t simply ask us to take her word on the time; Desiree told us the time, 8:45 a.m., was confirmed with technology.

In my opinion only.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

It is believed Terri went outside for an unknown period between 8:15 a.m. and 8:45 a.m. (See quote below). She may have directed Kyron to wait for her in the gym and that’s when Kyron went up the center stairs. (main entrance).

I speculate Terri may have been outside for about 10 minutes, possibly around 8:25 a.m. to 8:35 a.m. Where was Kyron’s baby sister?

So ten minutes visiting the classroom, being seen there by GZ in front of the project, take Kyron out of the group that had yet to be formed, then visiting multiple other classrooms, go to the library, go to McBeth's classroom, slip out the school, sit in the truck for ten minutes making a call (why make the call from the car?), then ten minutes to go back, find Kyron, take him to the classroom, discuss t-shirts with GZ, take multiple pictures, then leave, making GZ believe she was going on a tour despite the bell having rung and the children supposed to gather for the group tour?

I don't see that as a realistic scenario for the very brief time span. I've studied a lot of criminal cases, and when a scenario is this busy and all over the place, that usually means that something is being added that doesn't belong there. In this case, I'd say two things - the picture placed at 8:45 and the supposed sighting of Terri in the truck. Both of these were additional info provided not by LE but by Desiree many years later. Remove these and it becomes a far simpler and realistic scenario:

Terri and Kyron arrive at or shortly after 8:15, meet with classmates and GZ, discuss t-shirts, take pictures and then go on a tour. These events fit well within a fifteen minute window, so roughly 8:15 to 8:30, the two times GZ has given. Then comes the tour, visiting classrooms, library, McBeth's room. All of that is also unlikely to take less than fifteen minutes. Terri then claims that the bell rung (8:45) and she and Kyron went up separate stairs, once they had ascended, she waved goodbye to Kyron and left the school. Then a few minutes to walk to the truck, strap in the baby and ten minutes to drive to Fred Meyer, leaving Terri with good time to go inside the megastore along with the baby, make her purchases and get a receipt.

Basically, I see one realistic scenario and an unrealistic one.

Kyron and Terri went downstairs to return library books and say hello to Kyron’s kindergarten/1st grade teacher. (Mr. McBeth). This happened during the parents’ tour hour. This was most likely a personal excursion set up by Terri to make sure Kyron was seen at the school by as many people as possible.

It may also have provided the window of opportunity Terri needed to slip outside the school for a few minutes. Possibly she left the baby in Kyron’s classroom on the 2nd floor with someone watching her, explaining she and Kyron had to go downstairs to return library books and say ‘hi’ to Mr. McBeth.

But she would still have to do it. They were seen together by more than one teacher, one of which was certainly McBeth. And there is no indication that the baby was ever left with anyone. Who would that be, and what would be the reason to do so? Why wouldn't Terri just bring the baby if she's touring the school with Kyron? If she's going outside to make a call?

Terri didn’t participate in the students’ tour. She left at 8:45 a.m. As is often said, her departure time has never been disputed.

Never claimed she was. She "toured" with Kyron ca 8:30 to ca 8:45, as in she walked around with him and looked at exhibits. The only organized tours were the ones with the chaperones between 9 and 10.

Respectfully, may I suggest a clear reading of Desiree’s statements.

I've tried, but it's difficult when events change, when new information clashes with earlier info and when the resulting scenario becomes convoluted and contrived.

How would we know what GZ believed or why she believed it? Her statements are determined by what she saw.

From Boy Missing ch 4:

The last time Alice saw Terri and Kyron was after Terri took the photo of Ellie. Kyron and his stepmother were walking away by themselves, presumably to view some of the other science projects.

Please see the snipped quote below. Strictly speaking, the parents’ tour was from 8:00 a.m until 9:00 a.m. and the students’ tour was from 9:00 a.m. until 10:00 a.m. (The 15 minutes between 8:45 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. was for the parents to leave the school and the children to return to their homerooms so they could be divided into their parent-led groups and be ready to start their tour at 9:00 a.m. The sound of the bell at 8:45 a.m. signaled the start of this change).

I suppose the statement by the host of the Dateline special could be considered technically correct as the parents’ tour was scheduled for 8:00 a.m. until 9:00 a.m. and Terri, woefully considered a parent, was leaving the parents’ tour around 8:45 a.m. Kyron was seen in the parking lot, leaving with Terri and his baby sister, around 8:50 a.m. Kyron Richard Horman was never seen again.

The various tours and times revolving around the science fair are confusing and that confusion overshadowed Kyron’s case for years, and maybe still does. It was also a big part of why Terri chose that particular morning to do what she did.

[Snipped] 8 a.m. Skyline Elementary, opens early so students and parents can tour the science fair. A billboard outside reads: "June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45." Kyron was to take part in both the expo/science fair and the talent show. Terri Moulton Horman arrives shortly afterward with her stepson, Kyron.
Kyron Horman: Timeline of events since boy's disappearance

I haven't seen anything that says the parents had to leave the school before 9:00, and that the fifteen minutes between 8:45 and 9:00 was for their departure. The billboard outside said the expo was between 8 and 10. All the quote from OregonLive says is that parents and children had the opportunity to tour together before the school properly started. There's nothing saying parents couldn't tour the fair without their student children,.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

In not one of the many quotes provided does it say the photo was taken at 8:15 a.m.

I note that 8:15 a.m. is now being muddled with 8:30 a.m., but there is no confirmation the picture was taken at 8:30 a.m., either.

These are, however, the times given for GZ's observations of Terri and Kyron in the classroom, with no indication that there were other, later observations.

Desiree doesn’t simply ask us to take her word on the time; Desiree told us the time, 8:45 a.m., was confirmed with technology.

That is Desiree asking us to take her word on the time.

 

[OddOneOut]

Personally, I'd like to forget what Desiree and the Morris book said <modsnip> I'd like to discuss the facts of the case as known to the police. Since there were no security cameras in the school, pictures taken by those that were there seem the most likely to hold the clues to solving this case especially any taken in the hallways. I doubt the abductor would be in the room where parents were taking so many pictures.

 

[EllaMae]

Personally, I'd like to forget what Desiree and the Morris book said <modsnip> I'd like to discuss the facts of the case as known to the police. Since there were no security cameras in the school, pictures taken by those that were there seem the most likely to hold the clues to solving this case especially any taken in the hallways. I doubt the abductor would be in the room where parents were taking so many pictures.

Desiree got her information directly from the police. She also witnessed some things firsthand in the days after Kyron went missing. Why would you not believe her? She has more interest in finding Kyron than anyone else, and she knows the facts. She hasn't made up lies about anything. She and her husband, who is a well respected police detective, are trustworthy. Terri, on the other hand has been caught in numerous lies about that day.
There is no stranger involved, and the abductor was in the room because Terri was there,and she is the one who took Kyron out of the school that day.
Police looked at many photos and investigated everyone who was in the school. They did an extensive and thorough investigation.

 

[EllaMae]

These are, however, the times given for GZ's observations of Terri and Kyron in the classroom, with no indication that there were other, later observations.



That is Desiree asking us to take her word on the time.

No it isn't. There's actual proof confirmed by technology. The TECHNOLOGY evidence exists on it's own. Desiree just has knowledge of it's existence and what it means.

Desiree is not known to be a liar.

Terri, however, has a long history of lies and deceit, and sociopathic behavior.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Desiree got her information directly from the police. She also witnessed some things firsthand in the days after Kyron went missing. Why would you not believe her? She has more interest in finding Kyron than anyone else, and she knows the facts.

Desiree also, if the Morris book is to be believed, harbored a lot of resentment towards Terri - resentment which appears to have colored her perception of what happened and was said. For example, she mistakenly says Terri couldn't have seen Kyron from where she was standing, but she still claims this as a lie from Terri.

Desiree would not be the first (or last) parent who gets tunnel vision like this. Amanda Knox was fully acquitted of the murder of Meredith Kercher, yet Meredith's family still (as far as I know) believes Amanda is guilty. What the police first tells you can be incredibly hard to break out of, especially if it confirms your biases.

She hasn't made up lies about anything. She and her husband, who is a well respected police detective, are trustworthy. Terri, on the other hand has been caught in numerous lies about that day.

Desiree has changed the story of what she claims happened as late as this year. I've seen no such change in anything Terri has said. And ultimately, neither Desiree nor Tony were there when Kyron was abducted. They were a whole state away.

There is no stranger involved, and the abductor was in the room because Terri was there,and she is the one who took Kyron out of the school that day.
Police looked at many photos and investigated everyone who was in the school. They did an extensive and thorough investigation.

As late as Dec 10 2010 the MCSO still didn't know everyone who had been at the science fair. That's six months and a ton of public events later. How could they possibly be certain that they've got everyone?

No it isn't. There's actual proof confirmed by technology. The TECHNOLOGY evidence exists on it's own. Desiree just has knowledge of it's existence and what it means.

The only proof of the existence of that evidence is Desiree's word. LE has never made that claim.

Desiree is not known to be a liar.

Doesn't mean she can't misremember or misunderstand. Being certain doesn't mean you can't be wrong.

Terri, however, has a long history of lies and deceit, and sociopathic behavior.

I haven't seen much evidence of said lies and deceit.

 

[EllaMae]

So ten minutes visiting the classroom, being seen there by GZ in front of the project, take Kyron out of the group that had yet to be formed, then visiting multiple other classrooms, go to the library, go to McBeth's classroom, slip out the school, sit in the truck for ten minutes making a call (why make the call from the car?), then ten minutes to go back, find Kyron, take him to the classroom, discuss t-shirts with GZ, take multiple pictures, then leave, making GZ believe she was going on a tour despite the bell having rung and the children supposed to gather for the group tour?

I don't see that as a realistic scenario for the very brief time span. I've studied a lot of criminal cases, and when a scenario is this busy and all over the place, that usually means that something is being added that doesn't belong there. In this case, I'd say two things - the picture placed at 8:45 and the supposed sighting of Terri in the truck. Both of these were additional info provided not by LE but by Desiree many years later. Remove these and it becomes a far simpler and realistic scenario:

Terri and Kyron arrive at or shortly after 8:15, meet with classmates and GZ, discuss t-shirts, take pictures and then go on a tour. These events fit well within a fifteen minute window, so roughly 8:15 to 8:30, the two times GZ has given. Then comes the tour, visiting classrooms, library, McBeth's room. All of that is also unlikely to take less than fifteen minutes. Terri then claims that the bell rung (8:45) and she and Kyron went up separate stairs, once they had ascended, she waved goodbye to Kyron and left the school. Then a few minutes to walk to the truck, strap in the baby and ten minutes to drive to Fred Meyer, leaving Terri with good time to go inside the megastore along with the baby, make her purchases and get a receipt.

Basically, I see one realistic scenario and an unrealistic one.




But she would still have to do it. They were seen together by more than one teacher, one of which was certainly McBeth. And there is no indication that the baby was ever left with anyone. Who would that be, and what would be the reason to do so? Why wouldn't Terri just bring the baby if she's touring the school with Kyron? If she's going outside to make a call?



Never claimed she was. She "toured" with Kyron ca 8:30 to ca 8:45, as in she walked around with him and looked at exhibits. The only organized tours were the ones with the chaperones between 9 and 10.



I've tried, but it's difficult when events change, when new information clashes with earlier info and when the resulting scenario becomes convoluted and contrived.



From Boy Missing ch 4:





I haven't seen anything that says the parents had to leave the school before 9:00, and that the fifteen minutes between 8:45 and 9:00 was for their departure. The billboard outside said the expo was between 8 and 10. All the quote from OregonLive says is that parents and children had the opportunity to tour together before the school properly started. There's nothing saying parents couldn't tour the fair without their student children,.

<modsnip - personalizing> None of that has any bearing on the what really happened....and the fact that Terri Horman took Kyron out of the school that day. She changed her story several times. She has no alibi. She lied. She had the motive,the means and the opportunity. Children are most often killed by a caretaker or a family member such as a parent or step parent. There was no unseen evil stranger lying in wait at Kyron's classroom door. But there was an evil stepmother, and she was the one who took him. People saw her leave with Kyron.
<modsnip - personalizing>

 

[Laura456]

<modsnip - personalizing> None of that has any bearing on the what really happened....and the fact that Terri Horman took Kyron out of the school that day. She changed her story several times. She has no alibi. She lied. She had the motive,the means and the opportunity. Children are most often killed by a caretaker or a family member such as a parent or step parent. There was no unseen evil stranger lying in wait at Kyron's classroom door. But there was an evil stepmother, and she was the one who took him. People saw her leave with Kyron.
<modsnip - personalizing>

Except sometimes unlikely things do happen...There could have been an unrelated terrible person there who took Kyron.

Occam's Razor doesn't always work

 

[OddOneOut]

Personally, I'd like to forget what Desiree and the Morris book said <modsnip> I'd like to discuss the facts of the case as known to the police. Since there were no security cameras in the school, pictures taken by those that were there seem the most likely to hold the clues to solving this case especially any taken in the hallways. I doubt the abductor would be in the room where parents were taking so many pictures.

I want to do this to get back to the original facts of the case as stated by the police because it is more accurate. Facts passed from person to person change with each retelling. Remember the old game of "telephone." Eventually and unintentionally, facts change little by little with each retelling.

If Terri isn't guilty, there is a child predator out there free to harm other children. Kyron is still out there. He needs to be found. Desiree and Kaine deserve to know the truth no matter what it is. My father waited 50 years before finding out what happened to his missing brother. I don't want Kyron's family to have to wait that long.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

None of that has any bearing on the what really happened....and the fact that Terri Horman took Kyron out of the school that day.

I think we can know that isn't a fact by the simple truth that Terri Horman has not been convicted, or charged, or indicted for the crime of abducting Kyron. And we certainly can't say it's for lack of trying by the MCSO and the MCDA.

She changed her story several times.

But we don't know that. Whenever Terri has spoken for herself, I've found her story consistent.

She has no alibi.

Kyron Horman was taken some time between 8:45 and 10:00. That is one of the unquestionable facts of the case. And during this time, Terri Horman does have an alibi. She visited multiple stores, was seen by witnesses, some of which went on the record to the public as having seen her (and her baby), parked in public spaces and left no time to kill or otherwise spirit away Kyron (who wasn't seen in her car, despite it being parked in more than one public lot).

To me, that is an alibi.

She lied.

Do we know that? I don't think we do.

She had the motive,the means and the opportunity.

I have seen no evidence of motive. There are the mystery emails that apparently aren't great evidence of motive since Kaine and Desiree disagree on the content. I have no idea what means are in this context, and as for opportunity, I don't think the timeline allows for it.

Children are most often killed by a caretaker or a family member such as a parent or step parent. There was no unseen evil stranger lying in wait at Kyron's classroom door. But there was an evil stepmother, and she was the one who took him. People saw her leave with Kyron.

This is another thing we don't actually know. I also have to say, I have never seen anyone give a good reason for why, if these witnesses actually said what Desiree claims, there wouldn't have been an arrest in 2010. It just defies belief for me.

 

[EllaMae]

I think we can know that isn't a fact by the simple truth that Terri Horman has not been convicted, or charged, or indicted for the crime of abducting Kyron. And we certainly can't say it's for lack of trying by the MCSO and the MCDA.



But we don't know that. Whenever Terri has spoken for herself, I've found her story consistent.



Kyron Horman was taken some time between 8:45 and 10:00. That is one of the unquestionable facts of the case. And during this time, Terri Horman does have an alibi. She visited multiple stores, was seen by witnesses, some of which went on the record to the public as having seen her (and her baby), parked in public spaces and left no time to kill or otherwise spirit away Kyron (who wasn't seen in her car, despite it being parked in more than one public lot).

To me, that is an alibi.



Do we know that? I don't think we do.



I have seen no evidence of motive. There are the mystery emails that apparently aren't great evidence of motive since Kaine and Desiree disagree on the content. I have no idea what means are in this context, and as for opportunity, I don't think the timeline allows for it.



This is another thing we don't actually know. I also have to say, I have never seen anyone give a good reason for why, if these witnesses actually said what Desiree claims, there wouldn't have been an arrest in 2010. It just defies belief for me.YEs

Terri did lie and there is plenty of evidence that she did....repeatedly. From the Oregonian...
"Kaine Horman told The Oregonian that Terri Horman deliberately misled friends about when their relationship began, saying they met when he hired her to take care of Kyron. "Completely false," he said.Jul 27, 2010"

Her so called "alibi" is not actually an alibi because she is unable to prove her wherabouts for almost 2 hours. Just being in a store doesn't mean she didn't leave Kyron in the truck. She lied about the dry cleaners, and we know she lied because the employee of the dry cleaners disputed what Terri said. There was no line. The employee said it was a slow day and that there was never a line in that store all day. There are many incidences of Terri lying,and THAT is not in dispute by LE.

LE cannot bring Terri to trial without the DA giving the go-ahead. The grand jury can vote to indict but the DA has to agree and take it to trial. The fact that there is no body has been the sticking point.....not that they all think Terri is innocent. This is a common occurance in cases where LE know who is guilty but can't arrest until the DA is onboard. This has nothing to do with Terri's guilt but everything to do with a DA who has been reluctant to prosecute because Kyron's body is still missing. They know the who and the what but the where is the hold-up. It's disengenous to say that means Terri is not guilty. It does not mean that at all.
The evidence of motive is actually very clear. Kaine has said that he and Terri were fighting over her treatment of Kyron, her drinking and neglect of the baby, and her excessive spending. Terri blamed Kaine and Kyron for everything that was unraveling in her life instead of her own dysfunction.

As for the emails....as has been established many times and is NOT in dispute.....the contents do show motive. We don't know what's in them but LE does and they know what it means. They are the ones who showed Desiree the contents of the emails so it's not her "opinion". It's evidence of motive.

It's one thing to be of the mind that Terri is not guilty. To each his or her own. But the claim that there's no evidence of certain elements of the case that already are known to be true, and to claim that Terri had an alibi when in fact she did not, and that there's no motive is absolutely incorrect. These known facts are the reason her criminal defense attorney was in charge of her civil court case because the known facts coming out inthe civil case would damn her in the criminal case. An innocent woman would never give up her baby and refuse to give depositions in a divorce case. That just doesn't happen.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Terri did lie and there is plenty of evidence that she did....repeatedly. From the Oregonian...
"Kaine Horman told The Oregonian that Terri Horman deliberately misled friends about when their relationship began, saying they met when he hired her to take care of Kyron. "Completely false," he said.Jul 27, 2010"

So it's not evidence she lied, but someone saying that others said she lied. I'm not trying to be difficult, but sometimes it's less lies and more people getting the wrong impression and stories changing inadvertantly as they pass between people. This is far from the only case where that has happened. If there is a clear statement directly from Terri that says something false, I have yet to see it.

But even so, let's say she did lie - before Kyron went missing about something that happened a long time ago and is completely unrelated to the case. Giving a more flattering account of the messy beginning of their relationship. Come to think of it, that is an actual lie I have seen from Terri - her telling reporters everything was fine after Kaine had left with the baby. The kind of "lie" literally anyone could (and does) tell.

I just expect a bit more. Something that's relevant to the case.

Her so called "alibi" is not actually an alibi because she is unable to prove her wherabouts for almost 2 hours.

It's one and a half hour, but that doesn't matter since that period is after Kyron's disappearance. The whole point of an alibi is that you have it when the crime occurs - and Terri did.

Just being in a store doesn't mean she didn't leave Kyron in the truck.

She left Kyron alone in the truck in two (or three, counting Michaels) public parking lots where anyone could see him?

She lied about the dry cleaners, and we know she lied because the employee of the dry cleaners disputed what Terri said. There was no line. The employee said it was a slow day and that there was never a line in that store all day. There are many incidences of Terri lying,and THAT is not in dispute by LE.

It's funny you should pick this example, as it is a case of the book being provably wrong.

The dry cleaners couldn’t place Terri at the store. [...] At first Terri hadn’t mentioned the cleaners. Then she said she had gone to the store but didn’t go in. Later she said she walked up to the store but there was a long line and she decided not to wait. The police interviewed the clerk, who said it had been a quiet morning with no long lines. No one saw Terri. BM, ch 5

Well, except the dry cleaner staff was interviewed by reporter Kyle Iboshi when they went to testify for the divorce trial:

KGW interviewed a woman who works at a drycleaners. She says Terri came in to the cleaners the day Kyron went missing to drop off two shirts, but didn't have any children with her. Unfortunately she doesn't say what time Terri visited the cleaners.

So the dry cleaner staff directly contradicts the book's claim. I'd say that's poor evidence of Terri being deceitful.

As an aside, the question of why Terri walked into the dry cleaners alone, as opposed to the main Fred Meyer where she brought her daughter, this street view image from before the dry cleaners closed shop might explain it. Before the store is a couple of short term (10 minutes) parking spaces and the whole store front is glass. It might not be advisable, but a person could certainly stop, go inside to get or leave (I never was certain of which it was) shirts while still having eyes on their baby in the car.

LE cannot bring Terri to trial without the DA giving the go-ahead. The grand jury can vote to indict but the DA has to agree and take it to trial. The fact that there is no body has been the sticking point.....not that they all think Terri is innocent.

That's one theory. Another is that the Grand Jury no-billed the case back in 2010 and the DA and MCSO haven't been able to get a new indictment after that. I think that explains the subsequent events a lot better.

This is a common occurance in cases where LE know who is guilty but can't arrest until the DA is onboard. This has nothing to do with Terri's guilt but everything to do with a DA who has been reluctant to prosecute because Kyron's body is still missing. They know the who and the what but the where is the hold-up. It's disengenous to say that means Terri is not guilty. It does not mean that at all.
The evidence of motive is actually very clear. Kaine has said that he and Terri were fighting over her treatment of Kyron, her drinking and neglect of the baby, and her excessive spending.

But that's not a motive for kidnapping or murder.

Terri blamed Kaine and Kyron for everything that was unraveling in her life instead of her own dysfunction.

We don't know that she blamed Kyron for anything.

As for the emails....as has been established many times and is NOT in dispute.....the contents do show motive. We don't know what's in them but LE does and they know what it means. They are the ones who showed Desiree the contents of the emails so it's not her "opinion". It's evidence of motive.

They also showed them to Kaine, who disagrees with Desiree on the contents. I'd say that's a pretty clear indication that Desiree is reading between the lines.

It's one thing to be of the mind that Terri is not guilty. To each his or her own. But the claim that there's no evidence of certain elements of the case that already are known to be true, and to claim that Terri had an alibi when in fact she did not, and that there's no motive is absolutely incorrect.

There are speculations, sure, but nothing that has been substantiated. If there was evidence Terri had taken Kyron from the school, she would have been arrested, body or no body.

These known facts are the reason her criminal defense attorney was in charge of her civil court case because the known facts coming out inthe civil case would damn her in the criminal case. An innocent woman would never give up her baby and refuse to give depositions in a divorce case. That just doesn't happen.

Your first sentence explains the second. Her defense lawyer's duty was to keep Terri out of prison, and that meant preventing her from being deposed in civil trials that could be used against her in a criminal trial. This does not in any way, shape or form mean that she was guilty or that Houze believes she's guilty. Innocence is not a defense against being railroaded, as countless examples show. Until Terri was/is officially cleared by the MCSO, there will always be a danger of a criminal trial - though honestly I'd say any real danger was over by the time the book came out. Either way, the MCSO can't move either since they haven't got an indictment and now their illegal trick of bringing back cases before the Grand Jury without a court order has been exposed and shut down, I don't see any way for them to get one.

I do agree that a trial will commence if Kyron's body is found, it's just that it won't be a trial against Terri.

 

[EllaMae]

Except sometimes unlikely things do happen...There could have been an unrelated terrible person there who took Kyron.

Occam's Razor doesn't always work

Except.....all that was investigated thoroughly. It did not happen. People saw Terri leaving with Kyron that morning.....people who knew them. So no, there was no unrealted person who took Kyron. LE knows that Terri Horman left with Kyron and the baby on that morning.

 

[EllaMae]

So it's not evidence she lied, but someone saying that others said she lied. I'm not trying to be difficult, but sometimes it's less lies and more people getting the wrong impression and stories changing inadvertantly as they pass between people. This is far from the only case where that has happened. If there is a clear statement directly from Terri that says something false, I have yet to see it.

But even so, let's say she did lie - before Kyron went missing about something that happened a long time ago and is completely unrelated to the case. Giving a more flattering account of the messy beginning of their relationship. Come to think of it, that is an actual lie I have seen from Terri - her telling reporters everything was fine after Kaine had left with the baby. The kind of "lie" literally anyone could (and does) tell.

I just expect a bit more. Something that's relevant to the case.



It's one and a half hour, but that doesn't matter since that period is after Kyron's disappearance. The whole point of an alibi is that you have it when the crime occurs - and Terri did.



She left Kyron alone in the truck in two (or three, counting Michaels) public parking lots where anyone could see him?



It's funny you should pick this example, as it is a case of the book being provably wrong.

The dry cleaners couldn’t place Terri at the store. [...] At first Terri hadn’t mentioned the cleaners. Then she said she had gone to the store but didn’t go in. Later she said she walked up to the store but there was a long line and she decided not to wait. The police interviewed the clerk, who said it had been a quiet morning with no long lines. No one saw Terri. BM, ch 5

Well, except the dry cleaner staff was interviewed by reporter Kyle Iboshi when they went to testify for the divorce trial:

KGW interviewed a woman who works at a drycleaners. She says Terri came in to the cleaners the day Kyron went missing to drop off two shirts, but didn't have any children with her. Unfortunately she doesn't say what time Terri visited the cleaners.

So the dry cleaner staff directly contradicts the book's claim. I'd say that's poor evidence of Terri being deceitful.

As an aside, the question of why Terri walked into the dry cleaners alone, as opposed to the main Fred Meyer where she brought her daughter, this street view image from before the dry cleaners closed shop might explain it. Before the store is a couple of short term (10 minutes) parking spaces and the whole store front is glass. It might not be advisable, but a person could certainly stop, go inside to get or leave (I never was certain of which it was) shirts while still having eyes on their baby in the car.



That's one theory. Another is that the Grand Jury no-billed the case back in 2010 and the DA and MCSO haven't been able to get a new indictment after that. I think that explains the subsequent events a lot better.



But that's not a motive for kidnapping or murder.



We don't know that she blamed Kyron for anything.



They also showed them to Kaine, who disagrees with Desiree on the contents. I'd say that's a pretty clear indication that Desiree is reading between the lines.



There are speculations, sure, but nothing that has been substantiated. If there was evidence Terri had taken Kyron from the school, she would have been arrested, body or no body.



Your first sentence explains the second. Her defense lawyer's duty was to keep Terri out of prison, and that meant preventing her from being deposed in civil trials that could be used against her in a criminal trial. This does not in any way, shape or form mean that she was guilty or that Houze believes she's guilty. Innocence is not a defense against being railroaded, as countless examples show. Until Terri was/is officially cleared by the MCSO, there will always be a danger of a criminal trial - though honestly I'd say any real danger was over by the time the book came out. Either way, the MCSO can't move either since they haven't got an indictment and now their illegal trick of bringing back cases before the Grand Jury without a court order has been exposed and shut down, I don't see any way for them to get one.

I do agree that a trial will commence if Kyron's body is found, it's just that it won't be a trial against Terri.

Desiree certainly has hard feelings towards the woman who first had an affair with her husband, then mistreated and murdered her son. How could she not? I think she's shown immense restraint first with making an effort to co-parent, then with not beating Terri to a pulp after realizing what she'd done to Kyron. Desiree has handled herself well after all the pain that Terri has caused her.
Terri would've given a deposition had she been innocent. There was no reason not to do it otherise. A deposition in a divorce case is not a big deal unless it's tied to criminal behavior like murder of course.
On the day Terri claims to have gone to the drycleaners there was little business and no lines. She was not there that day.That has been verified by employees, by LE and by her phone pings. She was not in that area at that time on that day. LE knows that.
She was missing in action for almost 2 hours and during that same time DeDe Spicer was also missing. These are facts.
BTW....Houze was paid to defend Terri. Defense attorneys defend guilty people every day. His job was to keep Terri from incriminating herself and lying about her actions in the civil case as it related to the criminal case. She sold out in the civil case to keep from being arrested for kidnapping and murdering Kyron. That's not in dispute. The judge delayed the civil case to accomodate the criminal investigation. There is no mystery here. The judge also saw enough evidence in the murder for hire plot to grant Kaine and the baby legal protection from Terri. He understood the threat. That is pretty damning.
All this posting of deliberate misinformation and misleading claims is not useful, and does nothing to help find Kyron.

 

[EllaMae]

These are, however, the times given for GZ's observations of Terri and Kyron in the classroom, with no indication that there were other, later observations.



That is Desiree asking us to take her word on the time.

LE established the case timeline...not Desiree. She's relaying information that she was given by the investigators. They know the movements of everyone, and the timeline of all the activities in the school that morning. All of it was meticulously investigated. That's NOT her asking anything.
Desiree is not making up details. This is a victim friendly site and she is the mother of a missing child. No one has more at stake than she does, and she is looking for truthful answers. It's disrespectful to suggest that she's lying when she's repeating what she learned from investigators.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Desiree certainly has hard feelings towards the woman who first had an affair with her husband, then mistreated and murdered her son. How could she not? I think she's shown immense restraint first with making an effort to co-parent, then with not beating Terri to a pulp after realizing what she'd done to Kyron. Desiree has handled herself well after all the pain that Terri has caused her.

And this resentment, earned or not, has colored her view of what Terri says and does. Even when Desiree is wrong (like the non-existent wall she claims prevented Terri from seeing Kyron by his classroom) she still insists Terri was lying.

Terri would've given a deposition had she been innocent. There was no reason not to do it otherise. A deposition in a divorce case is not a big deal unless it's tied to criminal behavior like murder of course.

And not only was there an open criminal investigation at the time, which despite no public declaration was obviously aimed at Terri, her counterpart in the divorce case was using information from that investigation in the divorce trial. Of course Houze is going to prevent her from giving a deposition if she's innocent. He would be a lousy defense attorney otherwise.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were innocent, saw no reasons to get lawyers, and didn't object when the police asked them for new depositions. Because of that they spent four years in prison for a crime they didn't commit, then four more years of trials before they were fully acquitted.

Innocence is never a defense against railroading.

On the day Terri claims to have gone to the drycleaners there was little business and no lines. She was not there that day.That has been verified by employees, by LE and by her phone pings. She was not in that area at that time on that day. LE knows that.

So this is baffling. Here it is again: In 2013 Kyle Iboshi interviewed staff from the dry cleaners who said that Terri came into the store to hand over shirts. Who are you suggesting is lying here? The dry cleaners? Kyle Iboshi? The websleuthers who all saw the interview?

And how can you say it is verified that she wasn't there that day by employees, LE and phone pings? Not only did the employees say she was there in 2013, the LE confirmed sightings of the truck being in the parking lot of the Walker Rd Fred Meyer (where the dry cleaner was). A witness spoke to her there.

She was missing in action for almost 2 hours and during that same time DeDe Spicer was also missing. These are facts.
BTW....Houze was paid to defend Terri. Defense attorneys defend guilty people every day. His job was to keep Terri from incriminating herself and lying about her actions in the civil case as it related to the criminal case. She sold out in the civil case to keep from being arrested for kidnapping and murdering Kyron. That's not in dispute. The judge delayed the civil case to accomodate the criminal investigation. There is no mystery here.

There is also no indication of guilt or innocence here. Houze's instructions would be the same in either case. Simply going "well, I know I'm innocent, so what could happen?" is what has led to many an innocent person in prison.

The judge also saw enough evidence in the murder for hire plot to grant Kaine and the baby legal protection from Terri. He understood the threat. That is pretty damning.

Is there any indication that the judge saw the evidence? Or did he see Kaine's statement, granted a restraining order, and then didn't remove it because Terri didn't contest? Because that is my memory of the situation.

All this posting of deliberate misinformation and misleading claims is not useful, and does nothing to help find Kyron.

Who is posting deliberate misinformation? Not me.

LE established the case timeline...not Desiree. She's relaying information that she was given by the investigators.

Desiree has come out with a new timeline in 2015, which she has then expanded on over the years. This timeline isn't compatible with the information we know from the earlier info about the case. It's highly unlikely Desiree has been given new information by LE since 2015, and even unlikelier that she had that info already in 2010 (since the investigation would have been radically different).

They know the movements of everyone, and the timeline of all the activities in the school that morning. All of it was meticulously investigated. That's NOT her asking anything.

Law enforcement has never given the timestamp of the photo as 8:45. That is only Desiree. It just doesn't make sense in any aspect of the case.

Desiree is not making up details. This is a victim friendly site and she is the mother of a missing child. No one has more at stake than she does, and she is looking for truthful answers. It's disrespectful to suggest that she's lying when she's repeating what she learned from investigators.

Making up, misremembering, misunderstanding, given bad info by less-than-trustworthy parties, cut off from LE and unable to confirm, there are plenty of possibilities that do not involve deliberate deceit, but bad information is bad. The family of Brittanee Drexel gave out information about suspects that later turned out to be untrue - not their fault, but it happened nonetheless. The Kerchers still believe Amanda Knox killed their daughter/sister, despite her being acquitted for almost a decade - again, not their fault, since all their contacts within Italian legal system were giving them their own faulty information.

Respect for Kyron is not putting blind faith in and refusing to question information that appears to be bad, regardless of where it comes from.