Landscaper says Terri Horman wanted him to kill her husband!

[Donjeta]

I would like to see a poll asking, "If someone asked you to murder their husband, and offered to pay you for it, would you immediately report it to LE?". I think the answer would be a resounding "Yes".

That is what bothers me about the landscaper's story - that if he really, really believed she was attempting to hire him to murder Kaine, that knowing that put Kaine in danger of losing his life, he left Kaine out there exposed to that.

That, and that alone, removes all credibility from - and certainly any gratitude toward - the landscaper, for me.

If someone asked me to murder their husband, with or without an offer of payment or payment in kind, I would beat feet to the nearest PD, and on my way, I'd call the target and tell him, so that they could immediately protect themself.

That's what you and me and most good and kind and law-abiding Websleuthers who have nothing to hide would do but then we are probably not likely to be asked to murder anybody for a fee. If I was looking for someone to do a murder for me I wouldn't pick a good and kind and law-abiding citizen, I would pick someone who shows signs of not being so law abiding (so that he might agree to do it) and who might have reasons of his own to be less than eager to get involved with LE (so that he'll not go to them ASAP in case he doesn't agree to do it).

If he is a good and kind and law-abiding citizen it could simply be that he didn't realize it was serious at the time and took it as a joke, or maybe it wasn't serious and he got it right the first time but later rethought it when Kyron disappeared and the police came to him looking for information about Terri.

 

[BeanE]

If he is a good and kind and law-abiding citizen it could simply be that he didn't realize it was serious at the time and took it as a joke, or maybe it wasn't serious and he got it right the first time but later rethought it when Kyron disappeared and the police came to him looking for information about Terri.

Exactly. If it happened at all, he knew it wasn't serious, knew it was joking around.

:cow:

 

[Donjeta]

Exactly. If it happened at all, he knew it wasn't serious, knew it was joking around.

:cow:

It could be that he knew but he could just have thought so and been wrong.

It is difficult to imagine how one would initiate a conversation about a MFH but I think that it might be easier to approach the matter in a half-joking manner so that if the recipient of the suggestion is not receptive to the offer they can laugh it off as a bad joke. "Just kidding", even though you weren't.

JMO and not saying this is what went on with the LS but I think people do ignore things and not report them more often than we'd like. They see red flags all over the place and are a bit concerned but talk themselves out of it saying it'll pass or it was nothing serious, hoping it wasn't because it would mean trouble for themselves to get involved, what if I'm wrong and I call LE/CPS/someone else for nothing and then I'll look like a fool and it's a lot of trouble for the other person. If it's serious I'm sure someone else will report it... Etc. Then, if a tragedy strikes later on, everybody says, "why the hello did you not report it to the authorities right away" and it's obvious than it should have been in retrospect.

 

[Tink56]

I would like to see a poll asking, "If someone asked you to murder their husband, and offered to pay you for it, would you immediately report it to LE?". I think the answer would be a resounding "Yes".

That is what bothers me about the landscaper's story - that if he really, really believed she was attempting to hire him to murder Kaine, that knowing that put Kaine in danger of losing his life, he left Kaine out there exposed to that.

That, and that alone, removes all credibility from - and certainly any gratitude toward - the landscaper, for me.

If someone asked me to murder their husband, with or without an offer of payment or payment in kind, I would beat feet to the nearest PD, and on my way, I'd call the target and tell him, so that they could immediately protect themself.

EXCEPT...

Many of the individuals who have entered this country illegally are in constant fear of LE. I can understand, if this is the case with the LS, his reluctance to contact LE.

 

[BeanE]

EXCEPT...

Many of the individuals who have entered this country illegally are in constant fear of LE. I can understand, if this is the case with the LS, his reluctance to contact LE.

That's what pay phones are for. There's no excuse not to contact LE - and the potential victim - if you really believe someone wants to murder someone else.

In fact, it's imperative to contact both immediately.

 

[liz b.]

EXCEPT...

Many of the individuals who have entered this country illegally are in constant fear of LE. I can understand, if this is the case with the LS, his reluctance to contact LE.

Yes, but in that case why would he ever have done so ? I agree, if he is in the counrty illegally he was/is is a very vulnerable situation. I wonder what LE said to him to convince him to make the statements he did ? MOO

All JMO

 

[stmarysmead]

Hold on to your hat, SMM. We are in complete agreement.

Here's your morning wink -

Thank you for sticking with this, and discussing it through with me.

Thanks to you too.

 

[Donjeta]

Yes, but in that case why would he ever have done so ? I agree, if he is in the counrty illegally he was/is is a very vulnerable situation. I wonder what LE said to him to convince him to make the statements he did ? MOO

All JMO

Didn't we hear that he didn't do so (contact LE, that is)? IIRC LE contacted him when they went through all Terri and Kaine's contacts before Kyron disappearing.

After Kyron disappeared June 4, investigators with the county's Major Crimes Team tracked down the landscaper in the course of trying to interview everyone who had contact with the boy's family. They also found it odd that Terri Horman had hired a landscaper without her husband's knowledge.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_tells_police_terri.html

 

[liz b.]

Didn't we hear that he didn't do so (contact LE, that is)? IIRC LE contacted him when they went through all Terri and Kaine's contacts before Kyron disappearing.

After Kyron disappeared June 4, investigators with the county's Major Crimes Team tracked down the landscaper in the course of trying to interview everyone who had contact with the boy's family. They also found it odd that Terri Horman had hired a landscaper without her husband's knowledge.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_tells_police_terri.html

Yes,exactly. Two problems here : a) this "landscaper " is a huge part of any case against TH. So his veracity is paramount... and b) the way it played out could be used by Houze et al to give the appearance that the landscaper was somehow coerced, IMO... Houze would likely go to a plea deal being offered,if he was facing any criminal charges,or a lucky chenge in the "landscaper"'s immigration status,IF he is indded in the county illegally.
Because he didn't call LE when the "MFH plot " went down. Actually, if he is here illegally.he would have done better to call LE right away...he had to recognize the possibilities were worse if he kept quiet.MOO
Most likely that he really never took her seriously from the beginning... IMO

All JMO

 

[Tink56]

That's what pay phones are for. There's no excuse not to contact LE - and the potential victim - if you really believe someone wants to murder someone else.

In fact, it's imperative to contact both immediately.

It would be imperative to me and you, but our mindset and experience with LE probably differs greatly from that of many people.

With all due respect, how many pay phones are still readily accessible in Portland? I truly don't know where I could find one in San Diego.

That's not the point, however. Remember some of the extreme examples of "folks" not wanting to get involved. There was either in Boston or NY a young woman being stabbed to death on the streets. She was screaming for help for 5-6 blocks at night. NO ONE called 911 to report they heard her cries.

Consider for a moment how KH would have reacted to an anonymous call that his wife was trying to murder him. Consider what LE would have done with an anonymous tip of this nature. I don't see either as taking this, in December of 2009, very seriously.

On the other hand, if the LS was bothering TH, why didn't she talk with her husband about the problem? Why didn't she engage her friends about this "dude" bothering her?

I don't have a clue "how" this proposal was made, if it was made. However, expecting someone who is in the country illegally to contact police in any manner to help another, especially when he/she could be dragged into the situation, is unrealistic, IMO.

Off to work...carry on!

 

[BeanE]

It would be imperative to me and you, but our mindset and experience with LE probably differs greatly from that of many people.

With all due respect, how many pay phones are still readily accessible in Portland? I truly don't know where I could find one in San Diego.

That's not the point, however. Remember some of the extreme examples of "folks" not wanting to get involved. There was either in Boston or NY a young woman being stabbed to death on the streets. She was screaming for help for 5-6 blocks at night. NO ONE called 911 to report they heard her cries.

Consider for a moment how KH would have reacted to an anonymous call that his wife was trying to murder him. Consider what LE would have done with an anonymous tip of this nature. I don't see either as taking this, in December of 2009, very seriously.

On the other hand, if the LS was bothering TH, why didn't she talk with her husband about the problem? Why didn't she engage her friends about this "dude" bothering her?

I don't have a clue "how" this proposal was made, if it was made. However, expecting someone who is in the country illegally to contact police in any manner to help another, especially when he/she could be dragged into the situation, is unrealistic, IMO.

Off to work...carry on!

I can understand that fear of contacting LE that someone in the country illegally may have. That doesn't give the person a pass for me, though. There are ways to contact LE anonymously when someone is in danger.

Also, we have no idea if this guy was in the country illegally. We know nothing about him, really.

So until we know more, rather than make things up like being an illegal alien for the sole reason of giving him excuses (why in the world would anyone want to give someone excuses for not warning someone they were going to be murdered???), I'm going to proceed on the only reasonable premise I can devise based on what we do know - that he simply didn't think there was any serious request that he murder anyone, and nobody was in danger.

 

[citigirl]

I can understand that fear of contacting LE that someone in the country illegally may have. That doesn't give the person a pass for me, though. There are ways to contact LE anonymously when someone is in danger.

Also, we have no idea if this guy was in the country illegally. We know nothing about him, really.

So until we know more, rather than make things up like being an illegal alien for the sole reason of giving him excuses (why in the world would anyone want to give someone excuses for not warning someone they were going to be murdered???), I'm going to proceed on the only reasonable premise I can devise based on what we do know - that he simply didn't think there was any serious request that he murder anyone, and nobody was in danger.

But the fact is, the only way we know about this guy is from LE saying it WAS a serious request and that KH and baby WERE in danger. That is what we DO know So that is the most reasonable premise.

 

[citigirl]

Also, we have no idea if this guy was in the country illegally. We know nothing about him, really.

I agree with you-characterizing the man as an illegal alien because he has a Latino surname is making me very uncomfortable. Even if it gives him a good reason not to contact LE.

 

[Aedrys]

I can understand that fear of contacting LE that someone in the country illegally may have. That doesn't give the person a pass for me, though. There are ways to contact LE anonymously when someone is in danger.

Also, we have no idea if this guy was in the country illegally. We know nothing about him, really.

So until we know more, rather than make things up like being an illegal alien for the sole reason of giving him excuses (why in the world would anyone want to give someone excuses for not warning someone they were going to be murdered???), I'm going to proceed on the only reasonable premise I can devise based on what we do know - that he simply didn't think there was any serious request that he murder anyone, and nobody was in danger.

And I'm going on the reasonable assumption, in this very self serving society that we live in (based on how litigious it is, the high divorce rate, and the attitude of entitlement we see in many generations now), that he was relieved when it was called off and didn't think twice about not reporting it because it would only get him into trouble. He wasn't going to do it, the money was off the table, the plan gone, why call the police? Especially if he was involved in other things and didn't want the police looking into him for any reason. People, especially unsavory people, survive by protecting themselves. It only came up now because a kid is missing and that puts him the position of a LOT of unwanted trouble if he doesn't talk. Obviously, he was smart enough to talk once LE came looking for him so that they wouldn't think he had done something to Kyron. Joke or not, it doesn't look good for him since he once considered offing the father of the now missing child. The fact that he even considered doing that and accepting money for it makes him unsavory to me, even if he didn't ultimately do it. I'm not surprised that "Rudy Sanchez" is an alias for him.

 

[Donjeta]

Based on what we know I can't jump to the conclusion that he thought it was not serious at the time because we have not heard him say anything about it and IMO there are several reasonable explanations as to why he may not have wanted LE attention.

Some of these explanations may portray him as morally questionable but IMO his morality is a different issue from the truth of the MFH plot. What I mean is, it might have been morally very reprehensible for him to hear of a MFH plot, take it seriously and not report it straight away, but IMO we cannot use that as the basis of saying he can't have taken it seriously since he never reported it. People do morally reprehensible things quite frequently.

I would not like to believe LE to be so desperate that they try to get Terri to admit she attempted to hire an assassin if they have good reason to think, based on their conversation with the LS, that Terri never meant any such thing seriously.

 

[BeanE]

But the fact is, the only way we know about this guy is from LE saying it WAS a serious request and that KH and baby WERE in danger. That is what we DO know So that is the most reasonable premise.

No, sorry, that's not a fact. We haven't seen anything at all from LE about the landscaper.

I've seen what Kaine and his attorney said that LE said.

I might add that it doesn't give me warm fuzzies that Kaine and his attorney also said, in another legal document, that they had, in writing, Terri saying that she *paid* $350k to her attorney, and that when I saw that writing, it didn't say that.

I want to see the firsthand info on the landscaper and Terri - from the landscaper, Terri, and LE. It's okay - I'm patient.

 

[BeanE]

And I'm going on the reasonable assumption, in this very self serving society that we have, that he was relieved when it was called off and didn't think twice about not reporting it because it would only get him into trouble. He wasn't going to do it, the money was off the table, the plan gone, why call the police?

Because if he thought it was a serious attempt to have her husband murdered, it would stand to reason that even if he and she called it off (did they?), that she may well continue on to other avenues.

The fact that he even considered doing that and accepting money for it makes him unsavory to me, even if he didn't ultimately do it.

What leads you to believe he considered doing it? I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that he did, or that he did not, consider doing it. I just don't know.

 

[citigirl]

No, sorry, that's not a fact. We haven't seen anything at all from LE about the landscaper.

I've seen what Kaine and his attorney said that LE said.

I might add that it doesn't give me warm fuzzies that Kaine and his attorney also said, in another legal document, that they had, in writing, Terri saying that she *paid* $350k to her attorney, and that when I saw that writing, it didn't say that.

I want to see the firsthand info on the landscaper and Terri - from the landscaper, Terri, and LE. It's okay - I'm patient.

I agree with you about the $350,000. That bothers me also.

But I don't think it is a reasonable premise that the LS thought it was not a serious request and nobody was in any danger. Everything we know from KH and LE says otherwise--nobody else has addressed the issue.

 

[gwenabob]

I would like to add that there are foreign born people living in this country who are perfectly respectable, law abiding, and LEGAL who still want nothing to do with LE. For good reason. They flee countries that are awash in graft, crime, and corrupt government and police. There are many places in this world where LE is your worst enemy and you want to stay clear of them if you are a decent law abiding citizen. Why would a lifetime of that mindset change just because you crossed the border? (Plus, we don't even know where our LS was even born. Could have been Topeka!)

LE has not given us one reason to believe there is anything illegal, unsavory, or criminal about this witness. Let's just not go there. Let's focus instead on the very few people LE actually DOES suspect.

 

[Aedrys]

Because if he thought it was a serious attempt to have her husband murdered, it would stand to reason that even if he and she called it off (did they?), that she may well continue on to other avenues.

That's what people like us would do, Bean. But if he's involved in other activities he doesn't want the police to find out about, he's not going to care about the husband of some woman who came on to him and wanted him to kill. He's just going to tuck tail and run, and be glad that if the husband does end up dead, that it wasn't him who killed him. I want to think the best of people, but I also have experienced people that covering their hide is the most important thing to them. He didn't even come forward here - LE had to find him and only then did he talk.

What leads you to believe he considered doing it? I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that he did, or that he did not, consider doing it. I just don't know.

I don't know for sure, but he seems to have told LE it happened, otherwise we wouldn't have heard about it. He obviously didn't deny that it ever happened or refuse to talk. Either his conscience was weighing on him, or he wanted to be darn sure the finger wasn't pointed at him for Kyron's disappearance. Obviously he told them enough that this probably happened, and he most likely considered it at one point.

But like you, I'd too like to see actual documentation showing this. I can't be totally certain until that time, if that time ever comes.