Laura Babcock: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich charged w/Murder in the First Degree #1

[SnooperDuper]

How do we know MM did not have insurance? Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things. Just wondering. :waitasec:

That was in my brain but when I searched I could not find that so it's wrong

First article on the Harley's disappearance: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/08/more-to-snowstorm-than-traffic-chaos

Funny how the police seemed so disinterested to follow up...

 

[Kamille]

That was in my brain but when I searched I could not find that so it's wrong

First article on the Harley's disappearance: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/08/more-to-snowstorm-than-traffic-chaos

Funny how the police seemed so disinterested to follow up...

It's like some people actually think they're going to go out and look for your stolen property :floorlaugh:

The only thing LE do for stolen anything is to write up the report for your insurance company. And match up stolen goods to their owners if they're found in the middle of a big sting operation or say maybe a murder investigation.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

It's like some people actually think they're going to go out and look for your stolen property :floorlaugh:

The only thing LE do for stolen anything is to write up the report for your insurance company. And match up stolen goods to their owners if they're found in the middle of a big sting operation or say maybe a murder investigation.

MOO

I wonder why they gave the parts back to MM and not the insurance company though if it were currently insured?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Just to throw something out there, MWJ has an ancient music profile where he describes his hood as being the skanky part around Allan Gardens north of MM's hood, and he also happens to own a black truck.

 

[Kamille]

I wonder why they gave the parts back to MM and not the insurance company though if it were currently insured?

I believe it is your responsibility to notify the insurance company if your property is recovered after they have paid out for it and the two of you work it out from there. LE only involve themselves with the property owner who filed the report when it comes to returning stolen property.

Do we have any insurance agents in the house? Or anyone who's had their vehicle stolen, paid out by insurance and returned years later possibly in pieces? :dunno:

MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

I know we can't link facebook accounts of his friends but let's face it we've all seen the pics. Both hangers were an assortment of car parts, hoists, car engines and chopped vehicles. Were they all stolen? No. Were some? Maybe. But a lot of them were chopped.

TBH, the photos I've seen with all the vehicles were taken in the Toronto hangar. The few from the Waterloo hangar were quite clean. A few vehicles, yes, but nothing like the Toronto hangar pictures.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

... How long ago was it that the 'chop shop' story emerged? It's been almost 2 years, if I recall correctly. Are they still trying to find enough evidence that it was a chop shop to charge him with that crime, or did they give up on that idea, I wonder? ...

<rsbm>

I think it's a matter of jurisdiction. Indictable offences of a less serious nature can be heard in provincial court, so they have no reason to proceed in provincial court when the more serious charges (i.e. murder, treason) are heard in Superior Court.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I believe it is your responsibility to notify the insurance company if your property is recovered after they have paid out for it and the two of you work it out from there. LE only involve themselves with the property owner who filed the report when it comes to returning stolen property.

Do we have any insurance agents in the house? Or anyone who's had their vehicle stolen, paid out by insurance and returned years later possibly in pieces? :dunno:

MOO

This is correct. When your vehicle is stolen, you have to hand over the keys and ownership to the insurance company before they write off your vehicle and it then belongs to the insurance company. If the vehicle is later recovered, you are to report that to the insurance company. If you want to keep the found vehicle, you have to buy it back from the insurance company, provided they are willing and you come to a mutual agreement. Goodness, can you imagine the fraud that would occur if you could be reimbursed for your vehicle and still just keep ownership of it?

 

[Alethea Dice]

<rsbm>

I think it's a matter of jurisdiction. Indictable offences of a less serious nature can be heard in provincial court, so they have no reason to proceed in provincial court when the more serious charges (i.e. murder, treason) are heard in Superior Court.

Wouldn't a chop shop in Waterloo fall under Waterloo's jurisdiction and, yes, in provincial court, rather than in Hamilton where the murder charges are taking place? Because of the different jurisdiction and different court, I would think they would still proceed with the charges if the evidence warranted it.

 

[Juballee]

Just to throw something out there, MWJ has an ancient music profile where he describes his hood as being the skanky part around Allan Gardens north of MM's hood, and he also happens to own a black truck.

This is interesting, but I am not familliar with Allen Gardens, where is that, please?

It's funny to me that someone posted a google earth picture of a black truck in MB's driveway in a completely different city than MM years before the crime and posts here were all over it in speculation. Yet here is a criminal charged with a crime loosely related to the one in question living nearr MM and owning a similar truck, and it was completely ignored. Weird, in my opinion.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Wouldn't a chop shop in Waterloo fall under Waterloo's jurisdiction and, yes, in provincial court, rather than in Hamilton where the murder charges are taking place? Because of the different jurisdiction and different court, I would think they would still proceed with the charges if the evidence warranted it.

Are they pursuing MS's graffiti charge?

 

[swedie]

This is interesting, but I am not familliar with Allen Gardens, where is that, please?

It's funny to me that someone posted a google earth picture of a black truck in MB's driveway in a completely different city than MM years before the crime and posts here were all over it in speculation. Yet here is a criminal charged with a crime loosely related to the one in question living nearr MM and owning a similar truck, and it was completely ignored. Weird, in my opinion.

Seems pretty coincidental doesn't it?! Don't know if it was completely ignored or if it just hasn't panned out and/or been worthy of looking into any further.

Don't forget there are connections between DM, MWJ and MS. Could it be MWJ loaned his truck to friends? Could it be DM actually owned a black GMC we are not aware of? :thinking: HTH and MOO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

This is interesting, but I am not familliar with Allen Gardens, where is that, please?

It's funny to me that someone posted a google earth picture of a black truck in MB's driveway in a completely different city than MM years before the crime and posts here were all over it in speculation. Yet here is a criminal charged with a crime loosely related to the one in question living nearr MM and owning a similar truck, and it was completely ignored. Weird, in my opinion.

North of there, Carlton St. between Jarvis Ave. and Sherbourne St. however I think that MWJ profile was from 2006 so there you go, stale again

MWJ's black truck is on Youtube

 

[Juballee]

My apologies, this is hard to reply to as most of your reply is in my quote, so it doesn't transfer over. I have snipped a part of that reply to add to your quote and have then quoted another related post.

This task force has much bigger things to busy themselves with than tracking down ownership on vehicles and parts that likely had VIN numbers wiped out if stolen. It was done to the bike, stands to reason it was done to the cars. So tracing any of them down as stolen is probably next to impossible. Nor is it worth the trouble. They've got their hands full with 3 murders to gather evidence for and prosecute. And proving who stole vehicles at this point is next to impossible. If we've possibly got finger pointing for a murder, imagine how easy it would be for vehicle theft that likely goes back years. How do you even start to investigate that? Even without the murders I doubt he would have been charged with anything in regards to what was found in the hanger and he knew it. Just not worth the trouble to sort out. Insurance companies have already dealt with victim loss if there is any.

Some answers above in bold....

Marty's insurance company would have required a police report from Marty. That is all. DM could easily lie as to how he acquired the trailer so what's the point? It's only us sleuthers who are at all interested in who was in the black truck that stole Marty's bike and trailer. As I said LE have much bigger fish to fry. DM wasn't running a full fledged chop shop IMO. But I don't think it was out of the realm of possibility to steal vehicles to get parts for others. IMO it was a hobby, not a business. So when I use the term "chopped vehicles" I'm referring more to the pieces of various vehicles of unknown origin all over both hangers that we've seen the pics of and that was reported to be the situation inside the hanger when LE descended on it after Tim's truck was found in MB's driveway inside DM's trailer.

MOO

It seems here that you are saying the the alleged stolen vehicles aren't worth the task force's time to sort out and track down the owners of because they already have DM for murder. Then you say that even if they didn't have him for murder, they still wouldn't charge him for the alleged chop shop because it's too hard and not worth the trouble.

It's like some people actually think they're going to go out and look for your stolen property :floorlaugh:

The only thing LE do for stolen anything is to write up the report for your insurance company. And match up stolen goods to their owners if they're found in the middle of a big sting operation or say maybe a murder investigation.

MOO

Then here you say the only reasons LE might have to track down the owners of the stolen vehicles would be if it was part of a major arrest or a murder investigation, which is what this is, no? These seem to be contradicting statements in my opinion.

And personally it turns my stomach that we can joke about how unrealistic it may be to some to expect LE to do their job when it comes to finding missing vehicles, but when it comes to not finding missing people, it's really not a laughing matter in my opinion.

 

[swedie]

This is interesting, but I am not familliar with Allen Gardens, where is that, please?

It's funny to me that someone posted a google earth picture of a black truck in MB's driveway in a completely different city than MM years before the crime and posts here were all over it in speculation. Yet here is a criminal charged with a crime loosely related to the one in question living nearr MM and owning a similar truck, and it was completely ignored. Weird, in my opinion.

Is it Allen or Allan? Just Google mapping here. TIA.

 

[Kamille]

My apologies, this is hard to reply to as most of your reply is in my quote, so it doesn't transfer over. I have snipped a part of that reply to add to your quote and have then quoted another related post.



It seems here that you are saying the the alleged stolen vehicles aren't worth the task force's time to sort out and track down the owners of because they already have DM for murder. Then you say that even if they didn't have him for murder, they still wouldn't charge him for the alleged chop shop because it's too hard and not worth the trouble.


They aren't worth the trouble because they're probably untraceable. The VIN's are probably long gone. So yes, whether he was up on murder charges or not, if they can't trace the vehicles, they can't prove they're stolen. And if there are less than 10 as was indicated in MSM it's not a big vehicle theft ring they're trying to break so it's not worth the trouble.

They CAN prove MM's vehicle and trailer were stolen items though because MM was smart and put a hidden marker under his seat that whomever stole it didn't know about. But can they prove who stole it? So at best, all they may have on DM is possession of stolen property. Which he could easily lie his way out of by pointing fingers. It would never hold up in court. So again, it's not worth the trouble, especially since they have so much more to deal with.


Then here you say the only reasons LE might have to track down the owners of the stolen vehicles would be if it was part of a major arrest or a murder investigation, which is what this is, no? These seem to be contradicting statements in my opinion.

I said that if LE stumble upon your stolen items during an investiagation for something else, that's likely the only way you'll get your stolen item back. They don't jump in their cruiser and go looking for your stolen car when you report it or open up an investigation and start pulling neighbourhood surveillence video. Unless there is also a missing person involved with the stolen vehicle. But it's humorous that some people, such as MM in the article, seem to think they will launch a full investigation of stolen property. LE are just way too busy for that kind of thing. That's why you lock up your stuff and get insurance.

And personally it turns my stomach that we can joke about how unrealistic it may be to some to expect LE to do their job when it comes to finding missing vehicles, but when it comes to not finding missing people, it's really not a laughing matter in my opinion.

I hope this clears up your confusion.

 

[Juballee]

RSBM in order to make a cohesive reply.

They aren't worth the trouble because they're probably untraceable. The VIN's are probably long gone. So yes, whether he was up on murder charges or not, if they can't trace the vehicles, they can't prove they're stolen. And if there are less than 10 as was indicated in MSM it's not a big vehicle theft ring they're trying to break so it's not worth the trouble.

They CAN prove MM's vehicle and trailer were stolen items though because MM was smart and put a hidden marker under his seat that whomever stole it didn't know about. But can they prove who stole it? So at best, all they may have on DM is possession of stolen property. Which he could easily lie his way out of by pointing fingers. It would never hold up in court. So again, it's not worth the trouble, especially since they have so much more to deal with.

I said that if LE stumble upon your stolen items during an investiagation for something else, that's likely the only way you'll get your stolen item back. They don't jump in their cruiser and go looking for your stolen car when you report it or open up an investigation and start pulling neighbourhood surveillence video. Unless there is also a missing person involved with the stolen vehicle. But it's humorous that some people, such as MM in the article, seem to think they will launch a full investigation of stolen property. LE are just way too busy for that kind of thing. That's why you lock up your stuff and get insurance.

I hope this clears up your confusion.

Forgive me, but again, this format of reply is hard to respond to, since the reply I am responding to does not show up in my response without a good deal of cutting and pasting.

I don't feel that I am confused by my perception of a contradiction, and I disagree with the assertion that LE do not open an investigation when a car is reported stolen, respectfully. According to this article, approximately half of stolen vehicles are recovered in Ontario, and that wouldn't happen if police weren't investigating them, in my opinion. I highly doubt that they simply 'stumble' across half of all stolen cars during investigations into something else, personally. I think that whether the number of stolen vehicles recovered is less than 10 or not, the police must still behave as if it were 'worth their trouble' to try to locate the owners.

http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/2011/01/23/driven-to-steal-auto-theft-industy-is-big-business

""We saw a huge rise in stolen vehicles being exported out of the country to the former Soviet Union. We now recover about 50% of all the stolen vehicles in the province," says Boyd."

Another interesting statistic for the article:

"* In Canada, 40 to 65 deaths or injuries a year are directly related to auto theft. Information provided by the Ontario Provincial Police Auto Theft Team"

 

[Kamille]

H

RSBM in order to make a cohesive reply.



Forgive me, but again, this format of reply is hard to respond to, since the reply I am responding to does not show up in my response without a good deal of cutting and pasting.

I don't feel that I am confused by my perception of a contradiction, and I disagree with the assertion that LE do not open an investigation when a car is reported stolen, respectfully. According to this article, approximately half of stolen vehicles are recovered in Ontario, and that wouldn't happen if police weren't investigating them, in my opinion. I highly doubt that they simply 'stumble' across half of all stolen cars during investigations into something else, personally. I think that whether the number of stolen vehicles recovered is less than 10 or not, the police must still behave as if it were 'worth their trouble' to try to locate the owners.

http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/2011/01/23/driven-to-steal-auto-theft-industy-is-big-business

""We saw a huge rise in stolen vehicles being exported out of the country to the former Soviet Union. We now recover about 50% of all the stolen vehicles in the province," says Boyd."

Another interesting statistic for the article:

"* In Canada, 40 to 65 deaths or injuries a year are directly related to auto theft. Information provided by the Ontario Provincial Police Auto Theft Team"

Yes, undercover sting operations to bust car theft rings will be specifically investigating car thefts. So if there is an investigation going on in your area for a rash of car thefts, especially for specific makes and models and your vehicle falls into that, your report may make it to that investigative team. When that team makes a bust, usually they are able to recover a large amount of stolen vehicles and yours may be one of them.

If a couple of punks steal your car or trailer out of your driveway and there is no large scale pattern of theft in your area, they will not go looking for your property. But they will take a report and keep it on file in case they do find your property during an investigation into something else. Like say an armed bank robbery where they used your vehicle as the get away car. That report is required by your insurance company if you file a claim with them.

And how do LE locate the owner of a car engine sitting in someone's hanger for which they do not have a receipt of purchase? Or the shell of a vehicle with the VIN etched out? Or an entire vehicle with the VIN etched out? It's a lot of painstaking cross checking through their records narrowing down stolen vehicles that fit the description which they could be. And in what radius of the hanger do they narrow it down to?But even if they thought they had a match, it would be hard to prove absolutely. So it's just not worth the effort to try to prosecute for what amounts to theft over (insert amount) or possession of stolen property. Why do you think the motorcycle ID numbers were etched out in the first place?

MOO

 

[Juballee]

H

Yes, undercover sting operations to bust car theft rings will be specifically investigating car thefts. So if there is an investigation going on in your area for a rash of car thefts, especially for specific makes and models and your vehicle falls into that, your report may make it to that investigative team. When that team makes a bust, usually they are able to recover a large amount of stolen vehicles and yours may be one of them.

If a couple of punks steal your car or trailer out of your driveway and there is no large scale pattern of theft in your area, they will not go looking for your property. But they will take a report and keep it on file in case they do find your property during an investigation into something else. Like say an armed bank robbery where they used your vehicle as the get away car. That report is required by your insurance company if you file a claim with them.

And how do LE locate the owner of a car engine sitting in someone's hanger for which they do not have a receipt of purchase? Or the shell of a vehicle with the VIN etched out? Or an entire vehicle with the VIN etched out? It's a lot of painstaking cross checking through their records narrowing down stolen vehicles that fit the description which they could be. And in what radius of the hanger do they narrow it down to?But even if they thought they had a match, it would be hard to prove absolutely. So it's just not worth the effort to try to prosecute for what amounts to theft over (insert amount) or possession of stolen property. Why do you think the motorcycle ID numbers were etched out in the first place?

MOO

I understand that it is your opinion that LE don't look for stolen vehicles, but the link provided above proves that wrong, in my opinion, by stating clearly that half of the stolen vehicles in our province are found by LE. They would not be found if they were not looking for them, that's just logical, in my opinion.

Are you suggesting that LE only find it 'worth their effort' to search for half of the cars reported stolen, and that they then have a 100% location rate? Do you have some sort of MSM verification of this repeated assertion that LE find that it is not 'worth the effort' to try to investigate crimes or prosecute the criminals once they are discovered? Or a link that shows that police don't look for punks who steal cars in pairs, that they only go after big car theft rings? I believe the link I provided above disproves that theory, personally.

I was always under the impression that we pay LE to put their effort into solving crimes, but perhaps I have too much faith in LE. Personally, I find the whole 'not worth the effort' excuse distasteful to say the least, because it reminds me of the possible attitude of LE when LB disappeared.

 

[Alethea Dice]

This is interesting, but I am not familliar with Allen Gardens, where is that, please?

It's funny to me that someone posted a google earth picture of a black truck in MB's driveway in a completely different city than MM years before the crime and posts here were all over it in speculation. Yet here is a criminal charged with a crime loosely related to the one in question living nearr MM and owning a similar truck, and it was completely ignored. Weird, in my opinion.

This black truck has been mentioned a few times. And yes, I guess because it's not connected directly to DM, it basically gets ignored.

JMO