Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.07.17 - Charge to the Jury - Day 1

[Jealoushe]

Do they go home or??

And we're back. Code says the jury has told him they're not interested in sitting on the weekend. "My feelings are hurt," he jokes.
by Adam Carter 12:42 PM

 

[DeaconBrodie]

Yes, I recall posting at the time that I thought that was hearsay because CN wasn't there to testify to that.

I think it depends on what your definition is of an open relationship.

There was evidence that DM considered to be open. He slept with other women and he offered up CN to his buddy.

On the other hand, I don't think there is any evidence that CN thought it was open.

 

[meterclicks]

This is allowed as an exception, though the exception has limits. In a trial with two or more accused, the out of court statements can only be used for or against the particular accused who made the statement. It's only admissible against the maker.
by Adam Carter 12:48 PM

Basically, this means that Millard's statements about Smich in his letter to Noudga is inadmissible hearsay. But what Millard says about himself is fair game.
by Adam Carter 12:49 PM

 

[Woodland]

I think at this point in his charge he is outlining types of evidence (using examples) and not into totality of evidence.

Interesting that both accused have a piece of IMO damming evidence that applies only to them. MS rap and garage confession/admission and for DM the letters to CN. This ties IMO both of them to her disappearance. If jury can conclude she is deceased, I think there is evidence enough for M1 for both.

Welcome 5150 - while this 'confession' seems damning, the judge has said that it cannot be used in and of itself. Other people have testified that MS said this. It could very well be true, but what goes with that beyond a reasonable doubt?

The rap includes 'ashy stone' - disposal of the body. Another tough one in and of itself.

Jmo.

 

[ab-initio]

This also includes Smich's alleged statements about killing a girl, and the "ashy stone" rap.
by Adam Carter 11:58 AM

It also includes Babcock's phone being found at Smich's place.
by Adam Carter 11:59 AM

Code says circumstantial evidence is "crucial" in this case.
by Adam Carter 12:01 PM

"The case depends on circumstantial evidence on two of the main issues," Code says. Again, that's whether or not Babcock is dead, and if Millard and Smich killed her.
by Adam Carter 12:02 PM

Huh?
Again ... replying as I read so apologies if this is discussion is forthcoming ... but when did we ever hear that her phone was found at Smich's house? Her phone, as I thought it was reported, has never been retrieved.

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Huh?
Again ... replying as I read so apologies if this is discussion is forthcoming ... but when did we ever hear that her phone was found at Smich's house? Her phone, as I thought it was reported, has never been retrieved.

I believe he meant iPad..

Sent from my SM-G610M using Tapatalk

 

[paris_paris]

Do they go home or??

They will go home this weekend. Judge will finish his directive Monday/Tuesday, then deliberations will start until completed (through the weekends if needed, they won't have a choice).

 

[Jealoushe]

I think it depends on what your definition is of an open relationship.

There was evidence that DM considered to be open. He slept with other women and he offered up CN to his buddy.

On the other hand, I don't think there is any evidence that CN thought it was open.

That's cheating, not an open relationship. Has to be accepted by both parties to be "open"

 

[Shaz14]

Huh?
Again ... replying as I read so apologies if this is discussion is forthcoming ... but when did we ever hear that her phone was found at Smich's house? Her phone, as I thought it was reported, has never been retrieved.

That tweet from Adam Carter is now gone. I think that may have been a typo by Adam.

Right around the same time, Lisa Hepfner tweeted: The iPad and the red bag belonging to #LauraBabcock were found in #Smich's home 10 months after she disappeard.....

 

[DeaconBrodie]

So if the jury convicts DM of M1 but is unable to come to an agreement on MS, would that only be a mistrial for MS or would it be both because they're tried together?

If only a mistrial for MS, do you think the Crown would re-try him for M1, try a lesser charge (AATF) or simply cut their losses?
I'm very curious how they would re-try him without DM (ie. what would be admissible/inadmissible).

Of course this may all be a moot point. Just curious. =QUOTE]

DM's conviction would stand.

The Crown would likely retry MS or possibly take a plea to a lesser charge.

 

[meterclicks]

Code again says the jury must decided whether these out of court statements are true or false, what inferences to draw, and how important they are in context with the rest of the case.
by Adam Carter 12:50 PM

Code says the jury should approach the statements by deciding what was actually said, if it was true, and the context surrounding them -- ie: Smich's friends smoking pot when he allegedly told them he killed someone.
by Adam Carter 12:53 PM

Code now talking about Code's "Ashy Stone" rap. "Remember that the composition of raps and songs is a form of artistic expression," Code says, saying that people often write songs that don't pertain to actual events. But, he says, the jury should also keep in mind that the lyrics for the rap were found on Babcock's iPad.
by Adam Carter 12:55 PM

 

[ab-initio]

Do they go home or??

Probably. I don't think they are sequestered until the charge is complete. If that doesn't happen until Monday given his estimation of 3 days, then they get the weekend to meander freely before they are sequestered until they hand down a verdict.

 

[ab-initio]

I think it depends on what your definition is of an open relationship.

There was evidence that DM considered to be open. He slept with other women and he offered up CN to his buddy.

On the other hand, I don't think there is any evidence that CN thought it was open.

I don't think DM thought it was open, either -- in the true definition of an open relationship.
It was open for him ... but the second she shacked up with Boris, he dropped her from the title of girlfriend.

More accurately, he was habitually cheating/sleeping around.

I think he tried to frame it to appear open.
The "bro talk" between him and AM ... I don't think there was really any substance to that as far as CN was concerned.

 

[meterclicks]

Code says that the data from the iPad also shows that this was written while something appeared to be burning inside the eliminator. The jury has to consider these contexts.
by Adam Carter 12:56 PM

Code also stresses that they do not have video or audio of any out of court statements, so you can't analyze demeanour, tone of voice, etc.
by Adam Carter 12:57 PM

The Crown generally takes the position that the out of court statements are reliable, Code says, and show planning and deliberation to kill. The defence, on the other hand, takes the position that some of these out of court statements are unreliable.
by Adam Carter 12:58 PM

 

[ab-initio]

I believe he meant iPad..

Sent from my SM-G610M using Tapatalk

Thanks; I've caught up and see now I was late to the game with my arms in the air over this.
AS YOU WERE, SLEUTHS!

 

[5150]

Welcome 5150 - while this 'confession' seems damning, the judge has said that it cannot be used in and of itself. Other people have testified that MS said this. It could very well be true, but what goes with that beyond a reasonable doubt?

The rap includes 'ashy stone' - disposal of the body. Another tough one in and of itself.

Jmo.

Agreed, alone they don't carry much weight but with the mountain of other circumstantial evidence I think they say a lot. While each piece only applies to one of the accused, it makes it hard to reasonable conclude that either was not a willing active participant on LB's disappearance. Again JMO.

 

[meterclicks]

"As with any other evidence, you must determine the credibility and reliability of these out of court statements" by looking at them in context, Code says.
by Adam Carter 1:00 PM

Code calls these "potential links in a chain of circumstantial inferences relied upon by the Crown."
by Adam Carter 1:01 PM

The second exception of the hearsay rule is adoption of one accused of a second person's statement.
by Adam Carter 1:02 PM

This is only allowed in limited circumstances, Code says.
by Adam Carter 1:02 PM

 

[DeaconBrodie]

That's cheating, not an open relationship. Has to be accepted by both parties to be "open"

That's why I said it depends on your definition.

 

[banting]

Re the phone reference, it's hard to think that the judge would make such an important error. On that subject, though, didn't DM say that LB had a Blackberry and didn't MS also have a Blackberry as per the TB trial. I don't recall what happened to that but my guess it would be one and the same. I also thought that Jill Cameron said yesterday that LB only had one phone, ignoring but not addressing DM's comment about the Blackberry. I wonder if this was something kicked out in legal arguments, just like the references to a second gun in the TB trial.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Probably. I don't think they are sequestered until the charge is complete. If that doesn't happen until Monday given his estimation of 3 days, then they get the weekend to meander freely before they are sequestered until they hand down a verdict.

Given that the one juror had to be in Europe for family event on Dec 22nd, you’d think they’d sit the weekend and get right into deliberations?

JMO