Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.08.17 - Charge to the Jury - Day 2

[Horror]

"Do not find one accused guilty simply because you have found the other accused guilty," Code says. "They may both be not guilty. They may both be guilty. Or one may be guilty and the other one not guilty." There are separate bodies of evidence, he says. But, at least one of the two must be the "principal" to cause death.
by Adam Carter 11:24 AM

If neither of them is the principal, Code says, then you'd have to find both accused not guilty.
by Adam Carter 11:25 AM

You can also have co-principals, the judge says, if they were both "applying force."
by Adam Carter 11:26 AM

An accused who is not a principal can only be found guilty as an aider or abettor, Code says.
by Adam Carter 11:26 AM

Sorry behind but huge thank you for tweets and I got nervous about principle here until I read last line


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[winter2017]

What is incredible to me is MS had no involvement with Laura and so no animosity. It was only DM who did and wanted to get rid of her.
DM decides to convince MS to help him murder Laura and MS encouraged it by doing what DM asked him to. I think DM knew if they were caught MS would go down with him. I doubt MS knew that. If he did not commit the murder he probably thought he would not be blamed except be an accessory.
MS had to be pretty stupid to be willing to put himself in the position to be charged with murder by agreeing to help DM.
I don't know if I have ever read a case of any one that stupid.
You would allow someone else who had a problem with a person and wanted to get rid of them to involve you.
Until hearing from the judge how someone can be charged with first degree murder I did not know if you were not part of killing the person but encouraging and knew it was going to happen you are just as guilty.
DM took him down with him. Over what because his gf was annoyed at a woman DM had slept with. insane.
Now I understand more about the Bosma murder. It probably was DM who killed Tim and again MS just readily was dragged into it.
IT is one of the most insane murder cases I have ever known about.
I bet DM does not have one bit of guilt he feels about dragging MS into it knowing what he was doing and what would happen to MS.

 

[Bluepopsicle]

MS:
Main contact with MWJ from the get go.
Helped with procurement of the gun.
Was in on the planning / preparation of both incinerators.
Test it with 'something with bones in it' - he knows what it's for.
"Laura thing" text -> no explanation needed.
Was at Maple Gate at alleged time of murder.
"Don't be out front" text implies he's in on the plan.
Destroyed mattress evidence murder happened at Maple Gate.
Renames iPad next morning, no questions asked.

I won't get into the after the murder events - reams and reams of incriminating evidence, not least of which includes the garage admission of murder.

M1, beyond a reasonable doubt, no question..

Your MS evidence list, and believe you me, I believe he’s guilty and hope he’s found guilty, at least of Manslaughter. But my questions about your evidence list would be this:

The gun....I don’t see how that should necessarily be held against him (with respect to aiding this murder, or any murder, but maybe I’m wrong.). I think it’s part of their “th.ug life” culture to want/have a gun, even if they don’t intend to use it to kill.

The planning/preparation of the incinerators...I’m there with you on that, though I’m not convinced he knew the first victim would be LB at the time of the incinerator talk. Now as far as the modifications made to it, that would have been after LB was dead, and it’s my belief that he knew then. There seemed to be a sense of urgency to get the thing going...I can’t imagine it was a normal occurence to have DM, MS, and even MM there working (though I’m not sure MM knew why she was there, but that doesn’t matter for this discussion.).

The “Laura thing” text...I need to go back and look at the texts, as its been a few days, but I don’t recall it ever being put like that, in the actual texts. I had assumed that was a reporter’s paraphrasing in her tweets, but that being said, if they actually DID refer to the “Laura situation” in texts, then boom, thats self evident. Now I need to go back amd see when that text was sent, and what it specifically said.

Him being at Maple Gate, and the “don’t be out front”....I’ve always felt that particular text was telling, especially because he didn’t sem surprised by it, didn’t question it. But others have seen that text in a different light, showing him not knowing of the murder, otherwise why would DM text that if MS knew...to which I would say, I think MS knew, but possibly DM was just letting him know this is the time to not be out front. I so wish we had info from MM about that night.

The mattress...I don’t remember any evidence to show that he had anything to do with the mattress, though you would think that him being in the house, he would have to have known something, but what?

Renaming the iPad...I personally think that DM was in the control seat for that, whether MS was right there or not.

I guess i feel that I can kind of explain away each of these individual things, but like the good Judge said, take the totality of the evidence. I believe MS is guilty, but I also think 11 of my peers could sway me the other way :-/

 

[Horror]

If anyone could pick up Lisa Hepfner's tweets after the lunch break, that'd be most helpful. I'm not sure I will have any time to devote to doing tweets later this aft. Sorry!

Thank you for the ones so far


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[ABro]

Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate the differing perspectives. Lightbulbs are being lit up in my brain.

Maybe I am misunderstanding a few things.

In my mind, so many of the texts between DM and MS allude to early collusion indicating planning deliberate murder(s), beginning with the texts that said words to the effect of being ruthless enough to take things to a new level. From that point forward I believe it was their combined plan to murder and/or dispose of bodies as a thrill and/or business venture. Therefore, in my mind, if this was the case, is that not enough for a 1st degree murder conviction, or does that sort of planning have to be specifically meant for a specific individual, for example Laura specifically? Isn’t it enough that they were planning to kill and dispose of a human being, regardless of who that was?

Hope I am making some sort of sense here.



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You have been making perfect sense.

Just like some people are more Catholic than the pope, many people attracted to true crime sites are more defence lawyerish than Johnny Cochran.

None of the "not enough evidence for Smich" crowd has ever explained Mark Smich smiling in that photo or rapping in that video in a way that makes any sense given the evidence as a whole.

I think the jury is a very different demographic from this site, but, like everyone else, I'm waiting for their verdict to find out for sure.

 

[Tilly23]

DM had an iPhone so it would switch from cellular to wifi iMessage for messaging when he was in range of his home wifi. Law enforcement retrieved many of his iMessages from his phone and from his Itunes backups.

This was in response to my attempt to match up the messages we saw from CN at about 10:20pm on July 3 with the ping data for DM's phone in the same timeframe.

Thank you for this, Stumper. It makes me wonder what other messages we might be missing. After all, those messages from CN had been deleted and were recovered. Likely there were other deleted messages that were not recoverable.

Maybe this could also explain why AM called DM at 7:08 pm on July 3. Yes, it could just be a coincidence, but it is also possible that they were iMessaging back and forth earlier and we just can't see those messages. We heard that AM had an iphone too. Do iMessages from one iphone to another even go through the cellular network? It seems just too strange that AM happened to call at that moment.

All MOO.

 

[musicaljoke]

MS:
Main contact with MWJ from the get go.
Helped with procurement of the gun.
Was in on the planning / preparation of both incinerators.
Test it with 'something with bones in it' - he knows what it's for.
"Laura thing" text -> no explanation needed.
Was at Maple Gate at alleged time of murder.
"Don't be out front" text implies he's in on the plan.
Destroyed mattress evidence murder happened at Maple Gate.
Renames iPad next morning, no questions asked.

I won't get into the after the murder events - reams and reams of incriminating evidence, not least of which includes the garage admission of murder.

M1, beyond a reasonable doubt, no question..

Changing the name on the ipad is pretty damning in my mind. When changing the name, he would have seen the name of the real owner. I doubt that he'd be so quick to rename it, if he thought LB would be back to collect it. Why change the name so soon, unless he was certain that the owner would not be coming back for it?

There's no comment from MS, asking, "Where's Laura?", "Is she still here?", "When is she coming back for her things?"

 

[Horror]

On my way out for a bit if anyone wants to finish up the AC posts for the day.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Laura_Babcock_murder_trial_Dec_8

Thanks for the tweets


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[Stumper]

The jury doesn't want to sit this weekend, if it were me, I'd be having some good stiff drinks. [emoji4]
Justice Code is doing a remarkable job of outlining everything, regardless of knowledge of the TB trial, it would take alot to make me swing in favor of MS.
I won't be able to say this in the technical terms but, after putting all the pieces together, imo both are guilty M1.
No msgs from MS asking questions about iPad, or what they were going to be burning, imo, it's not only what we were able to see/read...it's also what we didn't, knowing they were best buds. All my opinion...and yes, I've been known to not show alot of sympathy towards them in the past...something about that ***** eating grin of MS at the incinerator makes my skin crawl

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I agree with this.

MS help source the gun and the incinerator. He was heavily involved in setup and testing of the incinerators. There is not a single text text (despite MS begging for cash) to the effect of “Yo Bro no worries. Once our pet incineration business is up and running you will be swimming in cash” so why the intense interest suddenly from someone who’s only ambition in life is to get wasted run illegal missions and write 3rd rate rap songs. But we did here “We need something with bones in it” for the test

“Don’t be outside” followed by hours of radio silence. “I rolled my first spliff” odd statement coming from DM but no questions from MS cause he knew what it meant. Marlena can wait n the car while “ we talk to that girl”

Then an incineration of the victim, gleeful pictures and a rap written whist the body burned. The lyrics of which just happened to align perfectly with all known evidence of the crime.

Then to top it all off he confessed to the killing to some high schoolers for crying out loud. One of which went to his principle with the info of his own volition as soon as he heard details of the crime in media. The only witness I can recall that went to police on his own accord in both this and the TB trial if IRC.

I really can’t fathom what more evidence would be required for an M1 charge. It is a mountain of evidence. I can’t help but wonder if the MS not guilty crowd aren’t out thinking themselves. Maybe focusing to heavily on the trees and losing sight of the forest

The crown put out a very good theory of Laura’s death that makes sense is believable and ties in all the available evidence.

I request that anyone that believes MS is not guilty of this crime please put out your alternate theory of these events that will account for the totality of known facts and can create REASONABLE doubt as to MS’s guilt

 

[arm chair sleuth]

Still want to know and didn't Dellen ask the same thing in his closing address "where is CN?" She could fill in a lot of holes and "explain" the texts. One that wasn't explained by anyone was the one that dealt with some mouse and Dell saying it's a little mouse but "she fell for it". Whatever that means. I'm convinced CN was in on the planning and not only was cruel enough to say she wanted to see Laura hurt, but actually did see Laura "hurt" or dead for that matter. If she had been charged with conspiracy to commit murder, she may have submitted evidence and again under the Canada Evidence Act, would not have the evidence used against her. It wouldn't all be "circumstantial evidence". We already compare her to Karla, but she would have it worse if she gave evidence at the LB trial. The media and society wouldn't forgive her and she would probably have to move away for a while, if she hasn't already.
As for a movie, I've already watched a cold case episode from a real case from the 1980's. High school kids, where the boy had to prove his love by murdering a girl from the wrong side of the tracks whom he had slept with and who had a crush on him. They both murdered her and many years later, after a "cold case" investigation, the man confessed. He had become a broken man and she had eventually married someone else, married a very wealthy man. When confronted by a cop who pretended she had more evidence than she had, he confessed and they both went to jail.

 

[Horror]

Thanks all for tweets and commentary
hard to catch up from different time zone. In Aus we have accessory after fact meaning you find out and totally help and cover. This can be jail terms dependant on circumstance almost as long as murder charge. Although I think they are both guilty as hell as I have stated before I am fence sitting and changing back and forth with MS. I would like to re state that I am ill informed about all cases as I came in only during this trial (everyone have filled the gaps fantastically) but is it possible that MS found out during or just after fact. They text "where are you" could be cover and they then clean up together etc which then gives them both confidence to get away with the next disputable act on TB. Although DM is evil - maybe MS became after this ! Got away with it for almost a year - we are invincible let's get a truck !!

If I have this all twisted time wise apologies
Also I accidentally got onto another thread briefly and Billandrew comment about a drive to clear the head so to speak - this idea really resonated truth to me


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[Horror]

I agree with this.

MS help source the gun and the incinerator. He was heavily involved in setup and testing of the incinerators. There is not a single text text (despite MS begging for cash) to the effect of “Yo Bro no worries. Once our pet incineration business is up and running you will be swimming in cash” so why the intense interest suddenly from someone who’s only ambition in life is to get wasted run illegal missions and write 3rd rate rap songs. But we did here “We need something with bones in it” for the test

“Don’t be outside” followed by hours of radio silence. “I rolled my first spliff” odd statement coming from DM but no questions from MS cause he knew what it meant. Marlena can wait n the car while “ we talk to that girl”

Then an incineration of the victim, gleeful pictures and a rap written whist the body burned. The lyrics of which just happened to align perfectly with all known evidence of the crime.

Then to top it all off he confessed to the killing to some high schoolers for crying out loud. One of which went to his principle with the info of his own volition as soon as he heard details of the crime in media. The only witness I can recall that went to police on his own accord in both this and the TB trial if IRC.

I really can’t fathom what more evidence would be required for an M1 charge. It is a mountain of evidence. I can’t help but wonder if the MS not guilty crowd aren’t out thinking themselves. Maybe focusing to heavily on the trees and losing sight of the forest

The crown put out a very good theory of Laura’s death that makes sense is believable and ties in all the available evidence.

I request that anyone that believes MS is not guilty of this crime please put out your alternate theory of these events that will account for the totality of known facts and can create REASONABLE doubt as to MS’s guilt

Thank you I am now back to that side of fence - also I think you are being extremely generous in calling it 3rd rate rap


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[Jasper52]

Remainder of tweets for today by Adam Carter;

Code again apologizing to the jury again, says he's going to keep them past five, to run over the evidence of Jessica Trevors (who he calls the young pastry chef with the lovely coloured hair) and Stefan Blasiak.
by Adam Carter 5:00 PM

Trevors saw Babcock for four days and four nights, from Jun 26 to June 30. Blasiak saw her on July 1 and 2, 2012.
by Adam Carter 5:01 PM

Trevors was the woman who saw Babcock get out of a taxi at a park with her belongings, and Babcock told her she had nowhere to stay. Trevors took her in, at her home.
by Adam Carter 5:01 PM

Code is now describing Babcock's four days with Trevors. "She did not speak about suicide or about her mental health. She talked about wanting to be an actress. She was constantly on her phone," Code says.
by Adam Carter 5:04 PM

Also from his charge: "Ms. Babcock had told Ms. Trevors that she worked as an escort. Ms. Trevors was not judgmental about this. However, when Ms. Babcock started to ask Ms. Trevors to join her in the escort business, Ms. Trevors became uncomfortable and asked Ms. Babcock to leave."
by Adam Carter 5:06 PM

"The telephone records tend to confirm Ms. Trevor's recollection that it was Saturday, June 30 when she drove Ms. Babcock to her parent's home in Etobicoke," Code says. "This is also consistent with Clayton Babcock's evidence that his daughter Laura called hm on June 30, and she said she was at home, dropping her dog off and getting something to eat before going on a trip."
by Adam Carter 5:09 PM

Now we're moving on to Stefan Blasiak. He testified he had met Millard at Babcock's birthday party at Medieval Times in Feb. of 2011. She also talked about Millard to him, Code says, and said she liked him.
by Adam Carter 5:13 PM

Code is now talking about her spending time with Blasiak, staying there on the night of July 1, and trying to find a charger for her Blackberry.
by Adam Carter 5:17 PM

Code is now recapping the jury about forensic reports from Blasiak's phone, talking about her texts leading up to July 3, 2012.
by Adam Carter 5:19 PM

In texts on July 3, the two are talking about her finding a place. Babcock texts him "I'm going to Montreal thurs. Then I need to pick Disney or Vegas. So I need to get ... packed. Soon." Blasiak responds u will be having a good time," and Babcock responds "it's work."
by Adam Carter 5:25 PM

Code says, "These first three sub-sections in my summary of the evidence are all relevant to the issue of whether Ms. Babcock is deceased or whether she has deliberately disappeared in order to start a new life away from her friends and family. All of the evidence you have heard about her lifestyle, her circle of friends, her habits, her difficulties, and her personality should help you in deciding this issue."
by Adam Carter 5:27 PM

Code again says the burden of proof is on the Crown to prove Babcock is dead, and that she died at the hands of Millard and Smich.
by Adam Carter 5:31 PM

Code thanks the jury, says they looks attentive and patient, says he knows he's longwinded, and gets a laugh. The jury is excused. That's all for this week -- back Monday morning at 10 a.m. as the charge continues.
by Adam Carter 5:32 PM

 

[Factoria]

I just heard about this Supreme Court of Canada decision and wonder what effect it will have on this case - if not now, in terms of future appeals.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...should-be-considered-private/article37267893/

and

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supreme-court-texting-privacy-1.4437469

Without the text evidence, the case against MS is significantly weaker. Don't think it would make much difference re DM considering all the other factors.

WOW! I'm just getting started on today's thread, so I apologize if this issue has already been discussed ad nauseam, but... this ruling seems utterly ridiculous to me!

While I agree that private conversations, in a general, 'grand scheme of things' sort of way, should be expected to remain just that ~ private, if I CHOOSE to commit a CRIME, and subsequently CHOOSE to text any details of same to whomever, I'm an idiot who clearly deserves what's to come when those texts come to light during the course of a criminal investigation! Why on earth are criminals (unbelievably idiotic criminals, at that) being offered this ludacris get-out-of-jail-free card?!?!?

 

[Stumper]

You have been making perfect sense.

Just like some people are more Catholic than the pope, many people attracted to true crime sites are more defence lawyerish than Johnny Cochran.

None of the "not enough evidence for Smich" crowd has ever explained Mark Smich smiling in that photo or rapping in that video in a way that makes any sense given the evidence as a whole.

I think the jury is a very different demographic from this site, but, like everyone else, I'm waiting for their verdict to find out for sure.

Very well put!

 

[arm chair sleuth]

MS confessed in a rap song that he burned a girl or turned her into ash, he didn't kill her, he even says "last time I saw her was outside the home". "Don't BE outside" wasn't that the message to Smich? To be or not to be, Hamlet's soliloquy? From the text messages there is no evidence that MS knew about any bad blood, had any motive to kill Laura, other than DM trying to paint a pic of him as a thief who would murder. Didn't MS wonder why he was given so many gifts of expensive but used electronics from a man who could easily afford brand new ones? He is an accessory to murder, he helped procure a gun, he helped burn a dead body, he helped cover up a murder and he did it for money and because he was (is) stupid enough to believe that DM was a real friend and his "bro". I've never seen a case where a judge says they have to both be found guilty. Aren't they both appealing the Bosma trial and asking for separate trials? After all, it seems DM is guilty of murder in the first degree, carefully planned, with motive, but MS is guilty as an accessory and possibly second degree, unplanned murder without motive. Both carry significantly different prison terms and parole eligibility.
Manslaughter is usually reserved for crimes of passion or unintentional murders.
Didn't MS ask if he should get a dog for the BBQ? He didn't know what it was going to be used for. It was when he needed money he was asked if he could be "ruthless" and it was "next level stuff". Ruthless enough to help DM get rid of a dead body and burn it; DM wasn't going to tell him what the BBQ was for until he desperately needed money. I don't see any indication that MS planned any murder nor did he have any motive. Premeditated is to actually think "I'm going murder this person", you don't have to say it, and it could be premeditated only a few minutes before the act. There is no evidence that MS was even with DM the night that LB was allegedly murdered. The only evidence is of him helping to get rid of the body and cover up the crime. No different from CN at the Bosma trial. MS should testify against DM, it could be why they are on trial together. Prisoner's dilemma?

 

[Just4TB]

Lisa Hepfner’s tweets:

An "unlawful act" is an objectively dangerous criminal offence. Like intentionally applying physical force by any means without consent. #LauraBabcock

The first accused is called the principal, the second is the aider or abettor. Aiding means helping. Abetting means encouraging. The jury doesn't have to decide which accused did which action. They are equally guilty if the second knowingly & intentionally assisted or encouraged.

This is explicitly why I strongly believe MS will be found guilty of M1, along with DM.
Three phases to the murder... The before, the murder itself, and the after.

The before.... Evidence shows that MS assisted in sourcing, sizing, and testing the incinerator, all prior to LB's murder. MS said they needed something wet, and hard, with bones.
The murder itself... Jury does not require evidence that MS was involved in the "during" phase. It may have been DM alone, it is irrelevant.
The after... Evidence shows that MS assisted in the cremation, he dumped LB's cremains into a lake, he possessed LB's IPAD and Red Suitcase... when this is viewed with the pre-planning evidence, he was "all-in"

That is pre-planning, DM is the principle, MS is the co-principle, assisted and encouraged before and after. BOTH guilty of M1

 

[Georgeo]

Your MS evidence list, and believe you me, I believe he’s guilty and hope he’s found guilty, at least of Manslaughter. But my questions about your evidence list would be this:

The gun....I don’t see how that should necessarily be held against him (with respect to aiding this murder, or any murder, but maybe I’m wrong.). I think it’s part of their “th.ug life” culture to want/have a gun, even if they don’t intend to use it to kill.

The planning/preparation of the incinerators...I’m there with you on that, though I’m not convinced he knew the first victim would be LB at the time of the incinerator talk. Now as far as the modifications made to it, that would have been after LB was dead, and it’s my belief that he knew then. There seemed to be a sense of urgency to get the thing going...I can’t imagine it was a normal occurence to have DM, MS, and even MM there working (though I’m not sure MM knew why she was there, but that doesn’t matter for this discussion.).

The “Laura thing” text...I need to go back and look at the texts, as its been a few days, but I don’t recall it ever being put like that, in the actual texts. I had assumed that was a reporter’s paraphrasing in her tweets, but that being said, if they actually DID refer to the “Laura situation” in texts, then boom, thats self evident. Now I need to go back amd see when that text was sent, and what it specifically said.

Him being at Maple Gate, and the “don’t be out front”....I’ve always felt that particular text was telling, especially because he didn’t sem surprised by it, didn’t question it. But others have seen that text in a different light, showing him not knowing of the murder, otherwise why would DM text that if MS knew...to which I would say, I think MS knew, but possibly DM was just letting him know this is the time to not be out front. I so wish we had info from MM about that night.

The mattress...I don’t remember any evidence to show that he had anything to do with the mattress, though you would think that him being in the house, he would have to have known something, but what?

Renaming the iPad...I personally think that DM was in the control seat for that, whether MS was right there or not.

I guess i feel that I can kind of explain away each of these individual things, but like the good Judge said, take the totality of the evidence. I believe MS is guilty, but I also think 11 of my peers could sway me the other way :-/

Who buys a gun just to have it and pose with it? Who tries to buy ammo for a gun, unless they are planning on using it?

Totallity of the evidence. All the pieces together equal M1 for both.

 

[Stumper]

This was in response to my attempt to match up the messages we saw from CN at about 10:20pm on July 3 with the ping data for DM's phone in the same timeframe.

Thank you for this, Stumper. It makes me wonder what other messages we might be missing. After all, those messages from CN had been deleted and were recovered. Likely there were other deleted messages that were not recoverable.

Maybe this could also explain why AM called DM at 7:08 pm on July 3. Yes, it could just be a coincidence, but it is also possible that they were iMessaging back and forth earlier and we just can't see those messages. We heard that AM had an iphone too. Do iMessages from one iphone to another even go through the cellular network? It seems just too strange that AM happened to call at that moment.

All MOO.

If an iPhone is connected to wifi it will not use cellular network for messaging. I know cause I live in a rural area with no cell coverage in the house but I can send and receive messages via wifi as long as the other party also has an iPhone. If they have an Android I can not and or receive messages until I enter a cell service area

 

[winter2017]

I wrote a long comment a few hours ago but something else came to my mind after I posted it.
What I find incredible would be that MS helped DM do some serious crimes and yet to my knowledge was never even paid any substantial amount of money.
I think most people if they were going to be willing to involve themselves in very serious crimes and assist the one planning them would want big money.
It looks like all that MS got from DM who had a lot of money , was drugs, a place to stay and other small favors, not even a car.
That is another big mystery to me why anyone would get themselves in serious crime and not be very well compensated for it. At least then be able to move away , start a new life, go on a trip knowing that a possibility could be caught.
That is what makes this case more bizarre and more bizarre.