Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.08.17 - Charge to the Jury - Day 2

[saulgoodman]

Your MS evidence list, and believe you me, I believe he’s guilty and hope he’s found guilty, at least of Manslaughter. But my questions about your evidence list would be this:


Renaming the iPad...I personally think that DM was in the control seat for that, whether MS was right there or not.

I guess i feel that I can kind of explain away each of these individual things, but like the good Judge said, take the totality of the evidence. I believe MS is guilty, but I also think 11 of my peers could sway me the other way :-/

​Lisa Hepfner

Marlena Meneses is now talking about the ipad. She saw Millard and Smich deleting things from it, and #Millard told #Smich to give it to Meneses, but he kept it for himself, she says. She didn't see what they were deleting. #LauraBabcock

Totally agree with you. Wanted to make it clear that both DM and MS were together on LB's I Pad.

Lisa Hepfner

We were not let into the courtroom until the testimony had already begun, so I'm catching up. Meneses says she played on the iPad a lot. When did they get it? "It was definitely after they played with the incinerator. It was still nice outside. It wasn't cold." #LauraBabcock

Added to keep the air clear. MM was using said I Pad, re-named 'Marks iPad' taking selfies July 5th.

 

[Georgeo]

I wrote a long comment a few hours ago but something else came to my mind after I posted it.
What I find incredible would be that MS helped DM do some serious crimes and yet to my knowledge was never even paid any substantial amount of money.
I think most people if they were going to be willing to involve themselves in very serious crimes and assist the one planning them would want big money.
It looks like all that MS got from DM who had a lot of money , was drugs, a place to stay and other small favors, not even a car.
That is another big mystery to me why anyone would get themselves in serious crime and not be very well compensated for it. At least then be able to move away , start a new life, go on a trip knowing that a possibility could be caught.
That is what makes this case more bizarre and more bizarre.

They were bro's. The lifestyle of stealing, drugs, guns, violent video games, gruesome rap videos, etc. Is their style. No moral compass. No conscience. No fear of LE.

 

[deugirtni]

I haven't had time to follow along much at all over the past few days.. trying to catch up (again!).. these are just random thoughts.. you sleuthers might already have answers to these, so forgive me if that's the case..

-I believe that LB had 'found' AM's 'ipod', not his 'iphone'... as far as I understand things, ipod's don't have cellular service... however they *can* access the internet via wifi, and there are free texting apps (and FB messaging too).. which data may or may not be able to be retrieved by LE? LB had her own phone, which is the phone number referred to in this trial, the one where LE followed the pings to know her general location in the time preceding her death. If AM was out of province at the time, in a different timezone, I doubt if he had anything to *do* with anything, but it sure wouldn't surprise me to learn that he *knew* what was happening

-is it possible that after DM picked up LB and took her to his house, and she checked her msgs before 'charging her phone', that he OD'd her and then left? DM's dad was also living at Maple Gate at the time, and MS and MM were also in the home. Do OD victims go silently? Or....... if DM 'shot' her as soon as they arrived at Maple Gate, he could have returned the 'dirty girl' to MWJ?

-is it possible that DM could have taken LB's phone *with* him, wherever he went to, just to ensure that LB was not able to call for help in the event she was OD'ing?

-Is the area of where DM travelled to at that time, anywhere near to where MWJ lived? I had thought that DM had been making arrangements to purchase a gun and ammunition from MWJ? Was that as a backup plan in case the OD didn't work?

-I noticed that during closing arguments the Crown mentioned the 'van' being visible in the photo showing the 'spliff', but yet, we did not hear anything at all about that van during the trial, did we? Other than who it had belonged to? (Unless it was just one of the things that did not get reported upon????) I suppose that means no evidence (DNA) was found in that van?

-I am confused because the fellows with the 'escort service' said LB had only worked there for 2 nights? But yet everyone (of LB's friends) seemed to know she was working as an escort.. so had she been working for a different escort service prior to that one?? And if so, why weren't those people called to the stand?

-I feel like there is a big chunk missing still in this big long story.. that involves a gun.. because the communications between DM and MWJ don't add up to me.. I feel like perhaps there is another victim/gun/story that has not yet been discovered. jmo.

-did Dungey say during his closing that MS had gone out to pick up beer? But according to texts, it was MS asking for beer, and DM dropping it off? Did I misread Dungey's remarks?

-when did CN and DM reconcile after their short stint as 'not his girlfriend'?

 

[deugirtni]

​Lisa Hepfner

Marlena Meneses is now talking about the ipad. She saw Millard and Smich deleting things from it, and #Millard told #Smich to give it to Meneses, but he kept it for himself, she says. She didn't see what they were deleting. #LauraBabcock

Totally agree with you. Wanted to make it clear that both DM and MS were together on LB's I Pad.

Lisa Hepfner

We were not let into the courtroom until the testimony had already begun, so I'm catching up. Meneses says she played on the iPad a lot. When did they get it? "It was definitely after they played with the incinerator. It was still nice outside. It wasn't cold." #LauraBabcock

Added to keep the air clear. MM was using said I Pad, re-named 'Marks iPad' taking selfies July 5th.

Wasn't it said earlier that the Crown/LE have no way of knowing *when* the ipad's 'name' was changed to MS? Didn't they admit that they only know that it occurred sometime between the time it was first plugged into DM's computer, and before a certain backup (I believe in January 2013?)?

 

[Just4TB]

Should text messages be allowed as evidence?

The Supreme court of Canada has today made a ruling, that in certain cases, police gleaned text messages could be deemed unreasonable search and seizure, and as such, cannot be used against a person in relation to criminal proceedings. The LB case hinges very much on text evidence. Could this ruling potentially impact this LB case, should an appeal occur??

See link below...
http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/some-personal-text-messages-private-supreme-court-rules-1.3713295

 

[saulgoodman]

Wasn't it said earlier that the Crown/LE have no way of knowing *when* the ipad's 'name' was changed to MS? Didn't they admit that they only know that it occurred sometime between the time it was first plugged into DM's computer, and before a certain backup (I believe in January 2013?)?

Yes you are correct. They later said that during questioning. However MM had started playing with the i Pad by July 5th.

 

[Stratocaster]

I agree with this.

MS help source the gun and the incinerator. He was heavily involved in setup and testing of the incinerators. There is not a single text text (despite MS begging for cash) to the effect of “Yo Bro no worries. Once our pet incineration business is up and running you will be swimming in cash” so why the intense interest suddenly from someone who’s only ambition in life is to get wasted run illegal missions and write 3rd rate rap songs. But we did here “We need something with bones in it” for the test

“Don’t be outside” followed by hours of radio silence. “I rolled my first spliff” odd statement coming from DM but no questions from MS cause he knew what it meant. Marlena can wait n the car while “ we talk to that girl”

Then an incineration of the victim, gleeful pictures and a rap written whist the body burned. The lyrics of which just happened to align perfectly with all known evidence of the crime.

Then to top it all off he confessed to the killing to some high schoolers for crying out loud. One of which went to his principle with the info of his own volition as soon as he heard details of the crime in media. The only witness I can recall that went to police on his own accord in both this and the TB trial if IRC.

I really can’t fathom what more evidence would be required for an M1 charge. It is a mountain of evidence. I can’t help but wonder if the MS not guilty crowd aren’t out thinking themselves. Maybe focusing to heavily on the trees and losing sight of the forest

The crown put out a very good theory of Laura’s death that makes sense is believable and ties in all the available evidence.

I request that anyone that believes MS is not guilty of this crime please put out your alternate theory of these events that will account for the totality of known facts and can create REASONABLE doubt as to MS’s guilt

Nailed it from my perspective, with regards to M1 for Smich....the 'ashy stone' video of that simpleton MS rapping in Millard's basement, shows so many hidden, subliminal messages...
- he's happy
- the plan went as discussed
- we're doing 'next level mission' stuff now
- no texting back and forth roughly between 8pm and midnight is repulsively chilling

..........Allllllll RISE...

"We the jury, find the defendant Dellen Millard, guilty of murder in the first degree"........."We the jury, find the defendant Mark Smich, guilty of murder in the first degree"

 

[ab-initio]

You have been making perfect sense.

Just like some people are more Catholic than the pope, many people attracted to true crime sites are more defence lawyerish than Johnny Cochran.

None of the "not enough evidence for Smich" crowd has ever explained Mark Smich smiling in that photo or rapping in that video in a way that makes any sense given the evidence as a whole.

I think the jury is a very different demographic from this site, but, like everyone else, I'm waiting for their verdict to find out for sure.

But they have, though.
In an AATF way ... I've seen numerous posts explaining him as being guilty after the fact, but saying these two instances do not point to an M1 conviction, even with the totality of the evidence.

 

[ab-initio]

MS confessed in a rap song that he burned a girl or turned her into ash, he didn't kill her, he even says "last time I saw her was outside the home". "Don't BE outside" wasn't that the message to Smich? To be or not to be, Hamlet's soliloquy? From the text messages there is no evidence that MS knew about any bad blood, had any motive to kill Laura, other than DM trying to paint a pic of him as a thief who would murder. Didn't MS wonder why he was given so many gifts of expensive but used electronics from a man who could easily afford brand new ones? He is an accessory to murder, he helped procure a gun, he helped burn a dead body, he helped cover up a murder and he did it for money and because he was (is) stupid enough to believe that DM was a real friend and his "bro". I've never seen a case where a judge says they have to both be found guilty. Aren't they both appealing the Bosma trial and asking for separate trials? After all, it seems DM is guilty of murder in the first degree, carefully planned, with motive, but MS is guilty as an accessory and possibly second degree, unplanned murder without motive. Both carry significantly different prison terms and parole eligibility.
Manslaughter is usually reserved for crimes of passion or unintentional murders.
Didn't MS ask if he should get a dog for the BBQ? He didn't know what it was going to be used for. It was when he needed money he was asked if he could be "ruthless" and it was "next level stuff". Ruthless enough to help DM get rid of a dead body and burn it; DM wasn't going to tell him what the BBQ was for until he desperately needed money. I don't see any indication that MS planned any murder nor did he have any motive. Premeditated is to actually think "I'm going murder this person", you don't have to say it, and it could be premeditated only a few minutes before the act. There is no evidence that MS was even with DM the night that LB was allegedly murdered. The only evidence is of him helping to get rid of the body and cover up the crime. No different from CN at the Bosma trial. MS should testify against DM, it could be why they are on trial together. Prisoner's dilemma?

Just to be clear, Judge Code has stated that they do not need to both be found guilty of this crime. One can be M1, while the other is M2, or even found not guilty.

I wasn't sure if this part of your note here was assuming he had said they both needed to be found guilty in this case, or just a commentary on never having seen that situation.

 

[winter2017]

They were bro's. The lifestyle of stealing, drugs, guns, violent video games, gruesome rap videos, etc. Is their style. No moral compass. No conscience. No fear of LE.

I am still not getting it, that what did MS get out of this. Drugs? a temporary place to stay. The seriousness of what they did at least merited for DM to give MS one of his properties, or a very substantial amount of money, not a few thousand, but a lot more.
Then what you are saying is they lived in la la land and not the real world.
IF that is true I wonder when MS was off drugs in jail and sober how he felt.
I think DM still believes that DM is living in some make-believe world.

 

[ABro]

But they have, though.
In an AATF way ... I've seen numerous posts explaining him as being guilty after the fact, but saying these two instances do not point to an M1 conviction, even with the totality of the evidence.

I said explanations that make sense. Not mere declarations that, yes, of course, Smich could be smiling about incinerating a body even thought he had nothing to do with it until after the fact.

I also note you didn't quote any of the multitude of explanations that supposedly make sense about why someone who's an accessory after the fact is so very proud to be an accessory after the fact, so proud that he poses in front of an animal incinerator and so proud that he allegedly boasts to others that he's a murderer.

I've seen one person say Smich was just "callous." Does that make sense to you? Others have said Millard forced Smich. Again, does that make sense? Others have said he was just boasting while ignoring that for a guy who was just boasting, there was a whole big pile of evidence against him. Does that make sense to you? That it's all just one giant coincidence? Or does it sound like people grasping at straws and playing devil's advocate?

So, again, please tell us the explanations for this behaviour that supposedly make sense. And then please tell us if they make sense to you personally.

Because that's another trait of the "not evidence for Smich" crowd, they almost always say they think he's guilty but there's just not enough evidence.

It's as if we're all supposed to suspend common sense whereas the jury will be told to use common sense.

But we will just have to wait to see the verdict the jury comes up with.

 

[Georgeo]

I am still not getting it, that what did MS get out of this. Drugs? a temporary place to stay. The seriousness of what they did at least merited for DM to give MS one of his properties, or a very substantial amount of money, not a few thousand, but a lot more.
Then what you are saying is they lived in la la land and not the real world.
IF that is true I wonder when MS was off drugs in jail and sober how he felt.
I think DM still believes that DM is living in some make-believe world.

They are totally in their own world of no rules, no laws, anything goes, take from the source, make your own rules up.

 

[Shaz14]

I wrote a long comment a few hours ago but something else came to my mind after I posted it.
What I find incredible would be that MS helped DM do some serious crimes and yet to my knowledge was never even paid any substantial amount of money.
I think most people if they were going to be willing to involve themselves in very serious crimes and assist the one planning them would want big money.
It looks like all that MS got from DM who had a lot of money , was drugs, a place to stay and other small favors, not even a car.
That is another big mystery to me why anyone would get themselves in serious crime and not be very well compensated for it. At least then be able to move away , start a new life, go on a trip knowing that a possibility could be caught.
That is what makes this case more bizarre and more bizarre.

I was thinking something similar in a way about CN. I’m sure she was involved and she was charged with Accessory after the fact in the TB trial.... yet she studies, and does med school, and works at kids camps etc Who does that? Pick a life of crime or pick a life of hard work, but why do both? LOL And if you’re willing to be involved in a murder, WHY do a post graduate degree??? That is SO much work, just get a regular job like anyone else if you still need more cash. It makes no sense.

 

[Stumper]

I am still not getting it, that what did MS get out of this. Drugs? a temporary place to stay. The seriousness of what they did at least merited for DM to give MS one of his properties, or a very substantial amount of money, not a few thousand, but a lot more.
Then what you are saying is they lived in la la land and not the real world.
IF that is true I wonder when MS was off drugs in jail and sober how he felt.
I think DM still believes that DM is living in some make-believe world.

I think that MS was very open to the opportunity. He wanted to be a Gansta rap star, and to have any real respect in that genre you have to be real. To MS killing and incinerating made him real and not a subdivision poser. Gave him inspiration and confidence in his raps. Paybacks, drugs, brotherly love and a promised music studio from DM didn’t hurt either

 

[Just4TB]

Should text messages be allowed as evidence?

The Supreme court of Canada has today made a ruling, that in certain cases, police gleaned text messages could be deemed unreasonable search and seizure, and as such, cannot be used against a person in relation to criminal proceedings. The LB case hinges very much on text evidence. Could this ruling potentially impact this LB case, should an appeal occur??

See link below...
http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/some-personal-text-messages-private-supreme-court-rules-1.3713295

I was late home from work, I didn't realize until now as I am catching up on the posts, that others had already discussed this subject today... apologies for rehashing inadvertantly
WS doesn't allow deleting of my post unless within a few minutes of posting...

 

[XFP]

I agree with this.

MS help source the gun and the incinerator. He was heavily involved in setup and testing of the incinerators. There is not a single text text (despite MS begging for cash) to the effect of “Yo Bro no worries. Once our pet incineration business is up and running you will be swimming in cash” so why the intense interest suddenly from someone who’s only ambition in life is to get wasted run illegal missions and write 3rd rate rap songs. But we did here “We need something with bones in it” for the test

“Don’t be outside” followed by hours of radio silence. “I rolled my first spliff” odd statement coming from DM but no questions from MS cause he knew what it meant. Marlena can wait n the car while “ we talk to that girl”

Then an incineration of the victim, gleeful pictures and a rap written whist the body burned. The lyrics of which just happened to align perfectly with all known evidence of the crime.

Then to top it all off he confessed to the killing to some high schoolers for crying out loud. One of which went to his principle with the info of his own volition as soon as he heard details of the crime in media. The only witness I can recall that went to police on his own accord in both this and the TB trial if IRC.

I really can’t fathom what more evidence would be required for an M1 charge. It is a mountain of evidence. I can’t help but wonder if the MS not guilty crowd aren’t out thinking themselves. Maybe focusing to heavily on the trees and losing sight of the forest

The crown put out a very good theory of Laura’s death that makes sense is believable and ties in all the available evidence.

I request that anyone that believes MS is not guilty of this crime please put out your alternate theory of these events that will account for the totality of known facts and can create REASONABLE doubt as to MS’s guilt

MS = M1 If you have doubts, read this. And, if you missed some of the previous posts, go back and read them, several people have clearly explained how MS was involved in the planning and deliberation.

Often people are unconscious fence sitters because they don't want to be wrong, but if I was on a jury with a anyone who debated issues that in totality are quite clear, it would be frustrating.

 

[Stumper]

I am still not getting it, that what did MS get out of this. Drugs? a temporary place to stay. The seriousness of what they did at least merited for DM to give MS one of his properties, or a very substantial amount of money, not a few thousand, but a lot more.
Then what you are saying is they lived in la la land and not the real world.
IF that is true I wonder when MS was off drugs in jail and sober how he felt.
I think DM still believes that DM is living in some make-believe world.

I agree with you. I have faith in the jurors to use their brains a tad beyond common sense. Telling jurors to use common sense and not look deeper would be like telling them they should use their guts. I don’t think coming up with a verdict would be that easy. I don’t consider myself a defence lawyerly type. Just because he did offensive things after the fact doesn’t equal M1. That is not the law and I believe the jurors understand that. There is other evidence so I think they might still come back with M1, but these pictures and videos after the fact I don’t think mean that he is guilty based on common sense. He could just be excited that he was involved in burning her....sick? Yes. M1? Not just based on that. Also if DM told him where her put her phone it wouldn’t take much to write that rap. I’m not saying he’s innocent, i’m just saying that it takes more than common sense, it takes an understanding of the law to convict someone of M1.

Yes but like most of these posts you forget that he was absolutely instrumental before the crime in acquiring weapons and obtaining and testing “with bones” multiple incinerators..

And the very pertinate fact that HE ADMITTED TO KILLING A GIRL AND BURNING HER BODY Right after proudly showing a rap that corresponded exactly with all known details of this crime.

Please give us a MS not guilty theory of the events of Laura’s death/disappearance that accounts for the TOTALITY of evidence against him in this case

 

[ABro]

Originally Posted by Shaz14 View Post
I agree with you. I have faith in the jurors to use their brains a tad beyond common sense. Telling jurors to use common sense and not look deeper would be like telling them they should use their guts. I don’t think coming up with a verdict would be that easy. I don’t consider myself a defence lawyerly type. Just because he did offensive things after the fact doesn’t equal M1. That is not the law and I believe the jurors understand that. There is other evidence so I think they might still come back with M1, but these pictures and videos after the fact I don’t think mean that he is guilty based on common sense. He could just be excited that he was involved in burning her....sick? Yes. M1? Not just based on that. Also if DM told him where her put her phone it wouldn’t take much to write that rap. I’m not saying he’s innocent, i’m just saying that it takes more than common sense, it takes an understanding of the law to convict someone of M1.

Jurors have been told by the judge during his instructions to use common sense to weigh the evidence. That's not saying go with your gut.

 

[XFP]

MS:
Main contact with MWJ from the get go.
Helped with procurement of the gun.
Was in on the planning / preparation of both incinerators.
Test it with 'something with bones in it' - he knows what it's for.
"Laura thing" text -> no explanation needed.
Was at Maple Gate at alleged time of murder.
"Don't be out front" text implies he's in on the plan.
Destroyed mattress evidence murder happened at Maple Gate.
Renames iPad next morning, no questions asked.

I won't get into the after the murder events - reams and reams of incriminating evidence, not least of which includes the garage admission of murder.

M1, beyond a reasonable doubt, no question..

Shaz14 - MS was clearly involved in the planning.
ETA: Also, why would MS ask to test the incinerator with "something with bones," if it was for garbage?

 

[Oreck]

You have been making perfect sense.

Just like some people are more Catholic than the pope, many people attracted to true crime sites are more defence lawyerish than Johnny Cochran.

None of the "not enough evidence for Smich" crowd has ever explained Mark Smich smiling in that photo or rapping in that video in a way that makes any sense given the evidence as a whole.



I think the jury is a very different demographic from this site, but, like everyone else, I'm waiting for their verdict to find out for sure.

I agree with your view 100%.
What is your view on how today's SCoC. decision will affect this case?

And a few ?'s for any WS'ers who might know.
Does this mean all cell data must be obtained by warrant?
Can LE take a cell and get a warrant latter?
Can LE open a cell and use this knowledge in their investigation, without a W?
I do appreciate all the WS users. There is usually one of you that has the knowledge.