Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

  • #1,461
Yeah, I’m just not clear - other than Paradkhar - how anybody else involved could be held in legal violation of anything. Christina herself was not before the court at the time and had not herself been ordered to not communicate with Millard. The onus seems to me to be completely on Millard to follow the order HE was given. What would the law be enforcing against her (or MB) when she herself had not been given any kind of an order?

Obviously there was an ethical obligation for her and MB, but I just don’t see how there could have been a legal one for anyone but Millard at the time?

Could there be a more overt example though of how MB’s indulgence of DM only harms him? I don’t think so.
If she tried to communicate to DM through traditional means, phone, mail, visits, etc, she would have just been denied. Legally speaking, they all came up with a covert operation to make sure this communication took place, evading detection and in violation of a court decision. That's the important part, imo.

And when I think about it further, she was eventually charged as well, and would have been bound by the same provisions at that time.
 
  • #1,462
If she tried to communicate to DM through traditional means, phone, mail, visits, etc, she would have just been denied. Legally speaking, they all came up with a covert operation to make sure this communication took place, evading detection and in violation of a court decision. That's the important part, imo.

And when I think about it further, she was eventually charged as well, and would have been bound by the same provisions at that time.

All the letters and phone calls happened before she was arrested, so her obligations came later.

It’s hard to think of a solid legal comparison that would clarify things. I can’t think of another situation where it would be a crime to conspire with somebody to do something that is illegal for them but not for you. Perhaps the closest comparison is a DV victim who with or without the aid of others tries to covertly spend time with the perpetrator if they no longer feel the order of protection is necessary. The only person who will be getting arrested in that situation is the person with the no contact order.
 
  • #1,463
Yeah, I’m just not clear - other than Paradkhar - how anybody else involved could be held in legal violation of anything. Christina herself was not before the court at the time and had not herself been ordered to not communicate with Millard. The onus seems to me to be completely on Millard to follow the order HE was given. What would the law be enforcing against her (or MB) when she herself had not been given any kind of an order?

Obviously there was an ethical obligation for her and MB, but I just don’t see how there could have been a legal one for anyone but Millard at the time?

Could there be a more overt example though of how MB’s indulgence of DM only harms him? I don’t think so.

We all question what MB did, and now that we know that those actions actually helped the Crown in getting not one, but two First Degree convictions, we should be relieved. These folks left a wide digital and paper trail, and it was their downfall. It would have been very difficult IMO if LE didn't have the texts and letters to get two solid convictions. The reaction on this site when the Officer read out the letter about DM's story of the night LB disappeared was an indication of the power of those exchanges.

When MB handed the phone to CN so she could speak with her "Sweet Serial Killer", is the sort of thing that was not easily traced, at least the content of the exchange. I am so relieved that DM preferred text messages to voice calls, and not voice calls as MS preferred.

Prediction:
DM Consecutive!
MS Consecutive, if Code can't apply a hybrid Parole eligibility sentence.
 
  • #1,464
It’s interesting to watch Code seem to mirror the process that most who have followed these crimes seems to have gone through: trying to understand if Mark Smich is as culpable as Dellen Millard. That uncertainty was reflected in the jury recommendations as well. If Code is like most he will think long and hard and fairly - and then decide that yes, Smich is as culpable.

I remain unsure, mostly because I’m not sure how to think about it. If the measure is the damage and destruction and loss he was part of, and the anguish he caused, then yes. If it’s about his dangerousness at the time, then yes as well. But if weighting his direct actions relative to Millard’s direct actions in this case is relevant, it becomes more ambiguous. As it may if Code will assess the relative prospects of rehabilitation and the relative odds of being capable of walking around the earth as something other than a total psycho. Relative motives may matter as well, if he sees them as different.

Whatever his decision is it is likely to hew closely to the law, to precedents and to justice and fairness, and not be based on the kind of philosophizing I like to do! LOL. Or, he might be rebel judge and set a new precedent and let it be appealed in an effort to ultimately produce clarity in judicial latitude.

None of us seem to be prepared for anything other than consecutive for Millard. Wouldn’t THAT be something!
 
  • #1,465
All the letters and phone calls happened before she was arrested, so her obligations came later.

It’s hard to think of a solid legal comparison that would clarify things. I can’t think of another situation where it would be a crime to conspire with somebody to do something that is illegal for them but not for you. Perhaps the closest comparison is a DV victim who with or without the aid of others tries to covertly spend time with the perpetrator if they no longer feel the order of protection is necessary. The only person who will be getting arrested in that situation is the person with the no contact order.
Yes, that's correct.

That's an interesting comparison. For me, if she had simply been trying to make contact with him, it would have (or should have) just been intercepted. What's striking here, is the whole covert operation involving DM, Paradkhar, MB, and CN, to completely violate the court. To me, that's criminal. At the end of the day, if LE agrees or not, is up to them.
 
  • #1,466
It’s interesting to watch Code seem to mirror the process that most who have followed these crimes seems to have gone through: trying to understand if Mark Smich is as culpable as Dellen Millard. That uncertainty was reflected in the jury recommendations as well. If Code is like most he will think long and hard and fairly - and then decide that yes, Smich is as culpable.

I remain unsure, mostly because I’m not sure how to think about it. If the measure is the damage and destruction and loss he was part of, and the anguish he caused, then yes. If it’s about his dangerousness at the time, then yes as well. But if weighting his direct actions relative to Millard’s direct actions in this case is relevant, it becomes more ambiguous. As it may if Code will assess the relative prospects of rehabilitation and the relative odds of being capable of walking around the earth as something other than a total psycho. Relative motives may matter as well, if he sees them as different.

Whatever his decision is it is likely to hew closely to the law, to precedents and to justice and fairness, and not be based on the kind of philosophizing I like to do! LOL. Or, he might be rebel judge and set a new precedent and let it be appealed in an effort to ultimately produce clarity in judicial latitude.

None of us seem to be prepared for anything other than consecutive for Millard. Wouldn’t THAT be something!
It's strange to me that Code is pondering the culpability of MS, because to me, this issue of consecutive vs. concurrent strictly comes down to law and justice, and that both crimes should be sentenced separately, as they were completely separate. He shouldn't be questioning who pulled the trigger, so to speak, because his guilt in both crimes has already been decided. We questioned the culpability of MS in terms of his guilt or innocence, and what the verdict might be. It shouldn't really be considered in terms of consecutive vs. concurrent. JMO though!
 
  • #1,467
It's strange to me that Code is pondering the culpability of MS, because to me, this issue of consecutive vs. concurrent strictly comes down to law and justice, and that both crimes should be sentenced separately, as they were completely separate. He shouldn't be questioning who pulled the trigger, so to speak, because his guilt in both crimes has already been decided. We questioned the culpability of MS in terms of his guilt or innocence, and what the verdict might be. It shouldn't really be considered in terms of consecutive vs. concurrent. JMO though!

That’s an excellent and interesting point. For all our musings and Code’s musings he may conclude that he effectively has no latitude and his only role is to apply the law to the fact that these were distinct crimes. I’m kind of thinking through this as though concurrent vs consecutive is like determing a sentence point on a range based on aggravating and mitigating factors, but that may not be the correct paradigm at all. It’s so new, and there is such little precedent, that Code didn’t even seem to know the parameters he is working within. I think I’m as interested to hear the reasons for his rulIng as I am the actual sentences.
 
  • #1,468
It's strange to me that Code is pondering the culpability of MS, because to me, this issue of consecutive vs. concurrent strictly comes down to law and justice, and that both crimes should be sentenced separately, as they were completely separate. He shouldn't be questioning who pulled the trigger, so to speak, because his guilt in both crimes has already been decided. We questioned the culpability of MS in terms of his guilt or innocence, and what the verdict might be. It shouldn't really be considered in terms of consecutive vs. concurrent. JMO though!

BBM.
I couldn't agree more.

The only consideration beyond consecutive/concurrent should be if there is latitude in the length of the second consecutive sentence. I'm surprised there is question surrounding this by Code -- I don't know the answer, but I'm not a judge. One would think that that little kink would have been worked out and clearly stated before the ability to sentence consecutively was introduced.
 
  • #1,469
That’s an excellent and interesting point. For all our musings and Code’s musings he may conclude that he effectively has no latitude and his only role is to apply the law to the fact that these were distinct crimes. I’m kind of thinking through this as though concurrent vs consecutive is like determing a sentence point on a range based on aggravating and mitigating factors, but that may not be the correct paradigm at all. It’s so new, and there is such little precedent, that Code didn’t even seem to know the parameters he is working within. I think I’m as interested to hear the reasons for his rulIng as I am the actual sentences.

BBM,
Samesies!!!
 
  • #1,470
I think the other big factor in sentencing will be how deliberate these crimes were: so much planning between the two of them. Because they were collaborating I think both will receive the same harsh sentence.

Adam Carter @AdamCarterCBC Feb 12
Code says he doesn't think he's ever seen a first degree murder case with the level of planning he has seen in this one. He also notes that Millard and Smich then went out and did the same thing again. #LauraBabcock
 
  • #1,471
I think the other big factor in sentencing will be how deliberate these crimes were: so much planning between the two of them. Because they were collaborating I think both will receive the same harsh sentence.

Adam Carter @AdamCarterCBC Feb 12
Code says he doesn't think he's ever seen a first degree murder case with the level of planning he has seen in this one. He also notes that Millard and Smich then went out and did the same thing again. #LauraBabcock
Agree. I believe DM gets consecutive MS extra 10 -15 for LB case. Really they are not likely to contribute anything much to society...just saying. Won't be missed.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk
 
  • #1,472
Agree. I believe DM gets consecutive MS extra 10 -15 for LB case.

Well...Cameron suggested that MS was the one celebrating with the rake photo and the rap song. Why does he get a discount?

I'd argue the main points are going to be 1) unrelated victims 2) extensive planning - and they are going to weigh against DM and MS equally.

It is more important that they were in on a plan together than it is that both were equally active in the plan. I mean that it doesn't matter that MS was taking a bath or wherever he was...if the plan at the time was for him to stay out of the way, he was still in on the plan. And as long as he's in on the plan, even if he is not the murderer, he's equally guilty.
 
  • #1,473
I think the other big factor in sentencing will be how deliberate these crimes were: so much planning between the two of them. Because they were collaborating I think both will receive the same harsh sentence.

Adam Carter @AdamCarterCBC Feb 12
Code says he doesn't think he's ever seen a first degree murder case with the level of planning he has seen in this one. He also notes that Millard and Smich then went out and did the same thing again. #LauraBabcock
I sure hope so! It's crystal clear to me at this point. I don't know what else to say, other than I hope Code makes the right decision.
 
  • #1,474
Agree. I believe DM gets consecutive MS extra 10 -15 for LB case. Really they are not likely to contribute anything much to society...just saying. Won't be missed.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk
I don't see how it's been proven that MS did anything more or less to warrant only an extra 10-15 years for the murder of LB. I don't know what Code would grasp at to make that conclusion, either.
 
  • #1,475
Well...Cameron suggested that MS was the one celebrating with the rake photo and the rap song. Why does he get a discount?

I'd argue the main points are going to be 1) unrelated victims 2) extensive planning - and they are going to weigh against DM and MS equally.

It is more important that they were in on a plan together than it is that both were equally active in the plan. I mean that it doesn't matter that MS was taking a bath or wherever he was...if the plan at the time was for him to stay out of the way, he was still in on the plan. And as long as he's in on the plan, even if he is not the murderer, he's equally guilty.
Which is exactly why he was found guilty, twice.
 
  • #1,476
Here are some multi-murderers that were charged and sentenced after the change to the law in 2011 who did not receive 25 years per death, consecutive:

Travis Baumgartner was sentenced at age 22 to 40 years for killing 3 co-workers and severely injuring a fourth. He pled guilty, probably cutting his sentence in half.

Christopher Husbands killed 2 and injured several at the Toronto Eaton Centre and was found guilty of second-degree murder, age 25. He was the first to be sentenced in Ontario under the new law. He received 30 years.

Shakti Ramsurrun killed 3 former family members and was found guilty of first and second degree murder at age 34. He was sentenced to 25 years. The judge said Ramsurrun’s remorse and lack of a prior record worked in his favour.

Jason Klaus hired Joshua Frank to kill his three family members, and both were found guilty of first degree murder. They were sentenced to 25 years and were 42 and 32 years old at the time. The judge didn’t see how any more time would act as any greater deterrence.

OTOH Douglas Garland, Justin Bourque, Paul Ostaman each killed 3 and received 75 years until parole. Cody Legebokoff was charged before the new law came into effect and received 25 years for killing 4.
 
  • #1,477
Well...Cameron suggested that MS was the one celebrating with the rake photo and the rap song. Why does he get a discount?

I'd argue the main points are going to be 1) unrelated victims 2) extensive planning - and they are going to weigh against DM and MS equally.

It is more important that they were in on a plan together than it is that both were equally active in the plan. I mean that it doesn't matter that MS was taking a bath or wherever he was...if the plan at the time was for him to stay out of the way, he was still in on the plan. And as long as he's in on the plan, even if he is not the murderer, he's equally guilty.

100%.
I'm not sure how the argument that MS is less culpable is still so prevalent because IMO it is so very easily argued away ... as you have just done here, concisely.
 
  • #1,478
Here are some multi-murderers that were charged and sentenced after the change to the law in 2011 who did not receive 25 years per death, consecutive:

Travis Baumgartner was sentenced at age 22 to 40 years for killing 3 co-workers and severely injuring a fourth. He pled guilty, probably cutting his sentence in half.

Christopher Husbands killed 2 and injured several at the Toronto Eaton Centre and was found guilty of second-degree murder, age 25. He was the first to be sentenced in Ontario under the new law. He received 30 years.

Shakti Ramsurrun killed 3 former family members and was found guilty of first and second degree murder at age 34. He was sentenced to 25 years. The judge said Ramsurrun’s remorse and lack of a prior record worked in his favour.

Jason Klaus hired Joshua Frank to kill his three family members, and both were found guilty of first degree murder. They were sentenced to 25 years and were 42 and 32 years old at the time. The judge didn’t see how any more time would act as any greater deterrence.

OTOH Douglas Garland, Justin Bourque, Paul Ostaman each killed 3 and received 75 years until parole. Cody Legebokoff was charged before the new law came into effect and received 25 years for killing 4.
Certainly something to think about. What stands out for me, is that these murders were committed during one act. The murder of TB and the murder of LB are two distinct acts and two seperate crimes.

What it comes down to for me, is that there is no difference between what DM did and what MS did. So if one is getting consecutive, the other should as well. And sadly, if one is getting concurrent, the other should as well. I see no reasoning either, to use latitude in what the second sentence should be in terms of MS vs. DM.
 
  • #1,479
Certainly something to think about. What stands out for me, is that these murders were committed during one act. The murder of TB and the murder of LB are two distinct acts and two seperate crimes.

What it comes down to for me, is that there is no difference between what DM did and what MS did. So if one is getting consecutive, the other should as well. And sadly, if one is getting concurrent, the other should as well. I see no reasoning either, to use latitude in what the second sentence should be in terms of MS vs. DM.

Exactly! They killed LB, then planned over a period of months, with WM possibly being a third in between for DM. After LB, they even got more brazen, and picked on a total stranger. I wonder if we would be pondering the sentencing if the trials were in reverse?

They were only getting started. MOO
 
  • #1,480
I don’t think this document has been discussed here yet:

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2017/2017onsc5275/2017onsc5275.html?resultIndex=10

Credit goes to posters on another site for turning it up. Among the gems: Millard robbed a convenience store, drove his car on top of another car at a dealership, set two different cars on fire, and he and Smich discussed torturing somebody they suspected of robbing Millard’s house of dope.

There is an interesting passage where Code says he sees little evidence of a thrill seeking motive in the crimes. I would tend to agree with that.
 

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