Legal Questions for our Verified Lawyers #4

[AZlawyer]

In HHJP's probation order, he cited 12 cases from FL (some from appellate court), 1 OH case, and 1 from the US Supreme Court as arguments to the DT's case.

Based on his findings, what do you think the FL appellate court will do with the DT's appeal?

I know you can't be sure, but having your legal opinion is very important to many of us and I greatly appreciate all that you do and value your opinion highly.

Thank You!!

Now that I've seen HHJS's full probation order, IMO it was perfectly clear from the written order that it was to begin upon release. And HHJP's new order says that the defense team admits they KNEW it was to begin upon release. Therefore, even if Casey "served" the probation in jail, IMO it is likely that the appellate court will find that there was no double jeopardy because her team (and therefore she) knew perfectly well that she was just engaging in a sham in hopes of avoiding her actual punishment.

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.....
Is there any way to charge someone in this case for abuse of a corpse, unlawful disposal of a corpse or anything along those lines to get to the bottom of how/where Caylee was placed and by whom?

It sure bothers me that no one will pay for that, whether Caylee's death was an accident or murder, she certainly didn't deserve what happened to her remains after her death.


ETA: I guess what's behind my question is that JB was allowed to stand up and give that opening statement to "explain" why Casey acted like she did......if it truly was an accident, why not also tell us who did what with her body after Caylee died?

As discussed on this page, Casey can't be charged with anything regarding the body. And no one else SHOULD be charged, because there is not a scrap of evidence that anyone else was involved.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

Couple of questions.
When DT take this HHJP probation order to an appellate court, can they refuse even to hear it if it has no merit.
Could they put a temporary stay on it. And for how long.

If the probation stands and if a serious violation occurs, could those 7 charges on the back burner get sentences attached. Would the original Judge Strickland handle that.
Could that result in several years of prison. Can the DT even appeal such ruling as a result of a VOP.

No, it won't be refused. That is because under the FL Rules of Criminal Procedure, there are certain rights of appeal that are given to defendants...no questions asked. You just have the right.
Defendants have a right to appeal a sentence (oh wait unsentence :tyou of probation.


They also have the right to appeal revocation of the probation as well as the ensuing havoc.

Upon violation (revocation) of probation (the VOP we talked about)
that withholding of adjudication can be "replaced" by a guilty finding.
At that point, the max penalty for whatever the crime might be can be imposed.
I've never seen anything in the law that says that the subsequent sentences for multiple offenses in a VOP must run concurrently.


That should cheer you up.:applause:

Judge Strickland wouldn't handle it because of the legal brewhaha viking::viking::viking that would result. Remember he has recused himself more than once at this point.
Doubtful he wants to garner the world :Crown: record for most-recusals-involving-same-defense- team.

No, no - :yourock:because I think you finally explained it to me in a way I can understand! Thank you for that!!! :blowkiss:


It is still a shame and it seems like there should be something else we can do.

Hey, can Cindy and her mom still get her for stealing money from them?? As if that were going to happen, lol.

Ok, I'll keep thinking and be back with more questions. Thanks again!

Great, because now I don't understand it. :takeabow:
OKay, just kidding.

Maybe, we could just all join hands and focus on 3 words:


:skip:Violation :ringsf:skip: Probation :rings::skip:


MH
sharing an opinion:wolf:

 

[kimmera]

Okay, I am a little confuzzled about a couple of things...:waitasec:

Judge Perry says that she has to serve the probation as Strickland ordered. The DT is going to appeal that. (Surprise, surprise.) Bill Schaeffer seems to think that they will get a stay pending the outcome of the appeal, but I have seen other attorneys say that KC will have to serve while the appeal is pending, and that it is likely that the probation will be over before the appeal process is. So which is it? How likely is it that they would get a stay, and what would be the determining factors?

Then, let's say that she was ordered to serve the probation while the appeal process is pending and she violates. Would the violation be thrown out if by some chance the DT wins the appeal? This whole thing is so confusing to legal dummies like me! :crazy:

I want to thank you both for all that you do for us! It really helps us laypeople to understand things a little better, and your time and efforts here are greatly appreciated! And I have to say that MH should win an award for the most creative use of emoticons EVER! :bowdown:

 

[MiraclesHappen]

The judge reads in a Orlando newspaper that a poll conducted by E-Market Research ststes that 94% of those surveyed dislike Casey Anthony. Judge Perry uses this "evidence" to justify keeping Casey's probation address sealed to protect her. Was it proper judicial proceedure to referance this poll in his ruling? Maybe we should use pollsters to determine guilt or innocence instead of a trial.

The prosecution tried to hammer home :gavel: to the jury that we cannot get so wrapped up in all the technicalities that we lose sight of common sense. Emphasis is on the word "tried." ullhair:

Judges are allowed also to use common sense and in fact, it is encouraged in most jurisdictions.

:idea:Now,
If anybody wants to mount a protest against Judge Perry:star2::hero::star2:


for the way he arrived at his decision to uphold the imposition of probation as originally ordered, and as it was originally meant to be,



then I personally am volunteering to write a supporting brief on behalf of the Judge :hero: and in favor of his decision.

MH:wolf:
sharing an opinion

 

[logicalgirl]

No, it won't be refused. That is because under the FL Rules of Criminal Procedure, there are certain rights of appeal that are given to defendants...no questions asked. You just have the right.
Defendants have a right to appeal a sentence (oh wait unsentence :tyou of probation.


They also have the right to appeal revocation of the probation as well as the ensuing havoc.

Upon violation (revocation) of probation (the VOP we talked about)
that withholding of adjudication can be "replaced" by a guilty finding.
At that point, the max penalty for whatever the crime might be can be imposed.
I've never seen anything in the law that says that the subsequent sentences for multiple offenses in a VOP must run concurrently.


That should cheer you up.:applause:

Judge Strickland wouldn't handle it because of the legal brewhaha viking::viking::viking that would result. Remember he has recused himself more than once at this point.
Doubtful he wants to garner the world :Crown: record for most-recusals-involving-same-defense- team.









Great, because now I don't understand it. :takeabow:
OKay, just kidding.

Maybe, we could just all join hands and focus on 3 words:


:skip:Violation :ringsf:skip: Probation :rings::skip:


MH
sharing an opinion:wolf:

BBM: with respect

I'm getting a bit concerned :woot: that you're coming awfully close to a request for a round of Kombayah here...

My question is how likely is the DT request for a stay of Probation (I feel silly even writing that) and an appeal to HHJP's judgement going to take in time? For some reason I'd guess the appellate courts are not sitting around :waiting: looking for something like this appeal to consider, especially this time of year with holidays and all. As of Monday, the 26th of August is actually 11 days away....

Thanks in advance and really enjoy your legal explanations - thanks much for your contributions to this thread!

 

[rotterdam]

I understand that a defendant can take an appeal (no matter how ridiculous ) to a district court and I can see the reason for lower court systems.
However, can those clowns (DT) keep re appealing/escalating to a superior court , all the way up to the Supreme Court of the USA ,outside the Fla criminal justice system for a non federal crime in order to keep the publicity going?Thereby also delaying justice. Is not there some point in time in the system , that says basta/appeal refused, enough of these frivolous antics, there is no standing for appeals. Is there any monetary backlash for the DT , like expensive court costs, if those appeals die a IMO predictable death.
I can see appealing a DP all the way up. But this is just a mundane probation.

 

[Dignity4Victims]

Now that I've seen HHJS's full probation order, IMO it was perfectly clear from the written order that it was to begin upon release. And HHJP's new order says that the defense team admits they KNEW it was to begin upon release. Therefore, even if Casey "served" the probation in jail, IMO it is likely that the appellate court will find that there was no double jeopardy because her team (and therefore she) knew perfectly well that she was just engaging in a sham in hopes of avoiding her actual punishment.

BBM - If you listened to Judge Strickland's order, he very clearly stated "upon release", so why or at what point did you ever have doubts about this probation order being granted by Judge Perry?

 

[missm]

Here's something simple I have always wondered about:

How do judges/lawyers keep straight all the thousands of cases that make up case law? How are they researched? Is it on a computer database where you enter some sort of descriptive search terms, like "homicide, child, burden of proof" and try to narrow it down- with the best lawyers & law firms just employing the most intelligent & out-of-the-box thinkers to find cases that would back up their arguments?

And are the numbers cited for specific cases arranged sort of like the dewey decimel system in a library? (So for instance, all cases in the 700's for example will deal with murder; the 710s are all for murder-plus-rape, the 720s are murder-plus-grand-theft, etc etc.)

I've just always been curious about the above. TIA!

 

[Katprint]

Now that I've seen HHJS's full probation order, IMO it was perfectly clear from the written order that it was to begin upon release. And HHJP's new order says that the defense team admits they KNEW it was to begin upon release. Therefore, even if Casey "served" the probation in jail, IMO it is likely that the appellate court will find that there was no double jeopardy because her team (and therefore she) knew perfectly well that she was just engaging in a sham in hopes of avoiding her actual punishment.

I totally agree. Not only did Casey have constructive notice through her defense team, she had ACTUAL NOTICE because SHE WAS PRESENT IN COURT and heard the judge when he made the order in open court.

I saw TMZ's photos of Casey shopping in Ohio. I found myself wondering whose credit card she was using for those purchases. Remember, supposedly she has no money per her "indigent" status. LOL!

Katprint
Always only my own opinions

 

[AZlawyer]

Okay, I am a little confuzzled about a couple of things...:waitasec:

Judge Perry says that she has to serve the probation as Strickland ordered. The DT is going to appeal that. (Surprise, surprise.) Bill Schaeffer seems to think that they will get a stay pending the outcome of the appeal, but I have seen other attorneys say that KC will have to serve while the appeal is pending, and that it is likely that the probation will be over before the appeal process is. So which is it? How likely is it that they would get a stay, and what would be the determining factors?

Then, let's say that she was ordered to serve the probation while the appeal process is pending and she violates. Would the violation be thrown out if by some chance the DT wins the appeal? This whole thing is so confusing to legal dummies like me! :crazy:

I want to thank you both for all that you do for us! It really helps us laypeople to understand things a little better, and your time and efforts here are greatly appreciated! And I have to say that MH should win an award for the most creative use of emoticons EVER! :bowdown:

IMO it is pretty likely that she will get a stay, because the appeal would be moot if she served the probation before it was decided.

If she didn't get a stay and violated probation, but then the appellate court decided she had already served her probation in jail and was not properly placed back on probation, then I suppose the violation would not count.

I understand that a defendant can take an appeal (no matter how ridiculous ) to a district court and I can see the reason for lower court systems.
However, can those clowns (DT) keep re appealing/escalating to a superior court , all the way up to the Supreme Court of the USA ,outside the Fla criminal justice system for a non federal crime in order to keep the publicity going?Thereby also delaying justice. Is not there some point in time in the system , that says basta/appeal refused, enough of these frivolous antics, there is no standing for appeals. Is there any monetary backlash for the DT , like expensive court costs, if those appeals die a IMO predictable death.
I can see appealing a DP all the way up. But this is just a mundane probation.

After the first appeal, the later appellate courts are free to decline to consider the case.

BBM - If you listened to Judge Strickland's order, he very clearly stated "upon release", so why or at what point did you ever have doubts about this probation order being granted by Judge Perry?

My doubts were about whether or not the defense team and Casey might have in good faith THOUGHT that she was supposed to be serving probation in jail. If so, IMO it would have been double jeopardy to make her serve it again. HHJS did say "upon release," but then there was some discussion and a kind of "maybe I'll change my mind" comment, then the minute entry didn't say "upon release." BUT it appears that there was a separate written order with the probation details, which I hadn't seen until this week, that would have made no sense whatsoever unless the probation was to begin upon release.

Here's something simple I have always wondered about:

How do judges/lawyers keep straight all the thousands of cases that make up case law? How are they researched? Is it on a computer database where you enter some sort of descriptive search terms, like "homicide, child, burden of proof" and try to narrow it down- with the best lawyers & law firms just employing the most intelligent & out-of-the-box thinkers to find cases that would back up their arguments?

And are the numbers cited for specific cases arranged sort of like the dewey decimel system in a library? (So for instance, all cases in the 700's for example will deal with murder; the 710s are all for murder-plus-rape, the 720s are murder-plus-grand-theft, etc etc.)

I've just always been curious about the above. TIA!

Wow, that's a big question. I get email notices and read all new Arizona case law. Currently, most lawyers do research on computers. Westlaw and Lexis index all case holdings using a numbering system organized by the legal principle involved. Most cases will have multiple holdings indexed in this system. You can also do word searches using logical connectors that specify how close the words should be, etc. Then you run a search on any cases you find to see if those cases have been overturned, mentioned, etc., by any newer cases.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.....
Is there any way to charge someone in this case for abuse of a corpse, unlawful disposal of a corpse or anything along those lines to get to the bottom of how/where Caylee was placed and by whom?

(snipped)

First of all:cguru: N cguru: O

Secondly, Charging someone with a crime is frowned upon when used as an investigative tool. :nono:

Okay, I am a little confuzzled about a couple of things...:waitasec:

Judge Perry says that she has to serve the probation as Strickland ordered. The DT is going to appeal that. (Surprise, surprise.) Bill Schaeffer seems to think that they will get a stay pending the outcome of the appeal, but I have seen other attorneys say that KC will have to serve while the appeal is pending, and that it is likely that the probation will be over before the appeal process is. So which is it? How likely is it that they would get a stay, and what would be the determining factors?

Then, let's say that she was ordered to serve the probation while the appeal process is pending and she violates. Would the violation be thrown out if by some chance the DT wins the appeal? This whole thing is so confusing to legal dummies like me! :crazy:

I want to thank you both for all that you do for us! It really helps us laypeople to understand things a little better, and your time and efforts here are greatly appreciated! And I have to say that MH should win an award for the most creative use of emoticons EVER! :bowdown:

Looks like she'll get a stay under the law.

I'll check it out some more but it appears to be automatic.

Kindof makes sense. If the order is deemed illegal or improper, the defendant really should not have to carry through with the order.

Please, do not shoot messenger. :trout: or hit messenger with big fish. If the defense wins, then her probation was already successfully completed,
the order for a re-do is invalid, and therefore there is nothing left to be violated and nothing available for a Judge to revoke.
May your confuzzlement be lessened, :therethere:if only by a degree.

The Law:


CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND CORRECTIONS Chapter 924
CRIMINAL APPEALS AND COLLATERAL REVIEW View Entire Chapter

924.14 Stay of execution when defendant appeals.—An appeal by a defendant from either the judgment or sentence shall stay execution of the sentence, subject to the provisions of s. 924.065.
History.—s. 293a, ch. 19554, 1939; CGL 1940 Supp. 8663(303); s. 151, ch. 70-339.

BBM: with respect

I'm getting a bit concerned :woot: that you're coming awfully close to a request for a round of Kombayah here...

My question is how likely is the DT request for a stay of Probation (I feel silly even writing that) and an appeal to HHJP's judgement going to take in time? For some reason I'd guess the appellate courts are not sitting around :waiting: looking for something like this appeal to consider, especially this time of year with holidays and all. As of Monday, the 26th of August is actually 11 days away....

Thanks in advance and really enjoy your legal explanations - thanks much for your contributions to this thread!

As I was saying, It looks like the stay is a matter of law.

Timeframe for notice and hearing will follow the criminal rules we discussed before.
Generally, all criminal appeals follow the same course. If time limits and other requirements change , it will be for death cases.

:up:Kombayah :up: Kombayah :up:

You are very welcome! :blushing: Glad to help!

I'll read through the Crim Pro Rules to see if there is anything else on the stay we want to know.

MH
:wolf:
sharing an opinion:seeya:

 

[logicalgirl]

First of all:cguru: N cguru: O

Secondly, Charging someone with a crime is frowned upon when used as an investigative tool. :nono:


Looks like she'll get a stay under the law.

I'll check it out some more but it appears to be automatic.

Kindof makes sense. If the order is deemed illegal or improper, the defendant really should not have to carry through with the order.

Please, do not shoot messenger. :trout: or hit messenger with big fish. If the defense wins, then her probation was already successfully completed,
the order for a re-do is invalid, and therefore there is nothing left to be violated and nothing available for a Judge to revoke.
May your confuzzlement be lessened, :therethere:if only by a degree.

The Law:


CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND CORRECTIONS Chapter 924
CRIMINAL APPEALS AND COLLATERAL REVIEW View Entire Chapter

924.14 Stay of execution when defendant appeals.—An appeal by a defendant from either the judgment or sentence shall stay execution of the sentence, subject to the provisions of s. 924.065.
History.—s. 293a, ch. 19554, 1939; CGL 1940 Supp. 8663(303); s. 151, ch. 70-339.





As I was saying, It looks like the stay is a matter of law.

Timeframe for notice and hearing will follow the criminal rules we discussed before.
Generally, all criminal appeals follow the same course. If time limits and other requirements change , it will be for death cases.

:up:Kombayah :up: Kombayah :up:

You are very welcome! :blushing: Glad to help!

I'll read through the Crim Pro Rules to see if there is anything else on the stay we want to know.

MH
:wolf:
sharing an opinion:seeya:

Okay thanks very much for your answer which ullhair: of course made some sense to be...

Yabbutt ( a strange animal known to inhabit the houses of more stubborn folks) I understand the rush for a stay of execution in a death sentence.

But this request for a stay is for a measly run of the mill check fraud sentence and this probation represents the charges that were adjudicated in stead of serving jail time. :waitasec:

So are you saying an appeals court would - rush- to make a decision on the stay as fast as they would for an execution stay? Geez, don't these guys have anything better to do with their time - like fold the stay request up into a paper plane and fly it around the room a few times or something?

 

[grandmaj]

If this stay is granted won't Casey have to get an appellate lawyer and not use her current defense team?

 

[MiraclesHappen]

Okay thanks very much for your answer which ullhair: of course made some sense to be...

Yabbutt ( a strange animal known to inhabit the houses of more stubborn folks) I understand the rush for a stay of execution in a death sentence.

But this request for a stay is for a measly run of the mill check fraud sentence and this probation represents the charges that were adjudicated in stead of serving jail time. :waitasec:

So are you saying an appeals court would - rush- to make a decision on the stay as fast as they would for an execution stay? Geez, don't these guys have anything better to do with their time - like fold the stay request up into a paper plane and fly it around the room a few times or something?

Nope.

Use of the word "execution" here is in the context of the execution of a sentence. i.e. imposition of whatever the court has ordered.
It doesn't mean the execution of a prisoner. (not sure that is what you mean).

I'm saying time standards usually change or get ramped up only when death cases are involved. If there's a different set of rules it will be for death cases.

Probation was ordered because as a matter of law it had to be ordered.
This mandate kicked in because there was no adjudication. Adjudication was withheld.
The threat posed by the probation is that it can lend itself to a Violation of Probation.
That's when it becomes non-measley because if probation is revoked and violation found, max sentence can be imposed.

That's the part of the proceedings that lends itself to the lecture from the bench :boohoo: :boohoo:about how the defendant should have taken probation more seriously because a break was given but since you think it is all a big joke I am about to show you how funny this is.
At that point the defendant is sentenced to jail and ordered into custody.
(aforementioned Kombayah).
That lecture, or some version thereof, is used very often in Court, as it should be.

Even if the Appellate Court jointly enrolls in an oregami class and successfully executes a paper rendition of Swan lake,:rubberducky: using the pleadings of defense counsel to accomplish this feat, they are still bound by the law.

Right now, the only law I can find says that the stay is automatic.

On a brighter note, that reminds me.

You know, sometimes the courts to want to rule one way but the law pushes them in another direction. They need a hook, they really want a hook to hang their judicial hats on, in order to rule a certain way.
If there is a hook in this case I think it will be the intentional conduct of defense counsel in "looking the other way" :couch:while having full knowledge that a Court order was being ignored, so as to benefit the defendant.

That's what will bite them in the end.
Just sharing an opinion:seeya:
MH :wolf:

 

[MiraclesHappen]

If this stay is granted won't Casey have to get an appellate lawyer and not use her current defense team?

I've never seen any rule which says you must get a lawyer who specializes in appeals.
You can't liken it to that whole "death-qualified" thing.

There is not a commensurate "appellate-qualified thing."

However, in my experience, it has been the practice of the experienced criminal trial attorney to concede that it is a different league with different rules so as to voluntarily bring in appellate counsel to handle the case at that stage.

MH
sharing an opinion :wolf:
Yes I know. :therethere:Just when you thought their party might be over.....

 

[rotterdam]

I just have one more question.
If there is a likely stay on the probation, will that put the probation period in a holding pattern.
In other words, if DT loses and HHJP order will stand, will the probation period start for a full year immediately after that, eventhough the original order stated it should be started upon release of the felon which by now could be more than a year ago...

 

[FLmom777]

I mentioned this in another thread but thought I should ask this here. Because the probation was ordered by HHSS and it is simply being enforced by HHBP, isn't it beyond the time limit to appeal the probation?

 

[AZlawyer]

I just have one more question.
If there is a likely stay on the probation, will that put the probation period in a holding pattern.
In other words, if DT loses and HHJP order will stand, will the probation period start for a full year immediately after that, eventhough the original order stated it should be started upon release of the felon which by now could be more than a year ago...

Yes, if there is a stay and the defense loses, then the probation will start after the appeal.

I mentioned this in another thread but thought I should ask this here. Because the probation was ordered by HHSS and it is simply being enforced by HHBP, isn't it beyond the time limit to appeal the probation?

No, the appeal is not from HHJS's old order imposing probation, but from HHJP's brand-new order ruling that the probation was not completed in jail. It would be too late to challenge the order imposing 1 year of probation, but the defense team is not disagreeing that Casey is required to complete probation. They are arguing that she already completed it.

 

[mag84]

First of all:cguru: N cguru: O

Secondly, Charging someone with a crime is frowned upon when used as an investigative tool. :nono:


Looks like she'll get a stay under the law.

I'll check it out some more but it appears to be automatic.

Kindof makes sense. If the order is deemed illegal or improper, the defendant really should not have to carry through with the order.

Please, do not shoot messenger. :trout: or hit messenger with big fish. If the defense wins, then her probation was already successfully completed,
the order for a re-do is invalid, and therefore there is nothing left to be violated and nothing available for a Judge to revoke.
May your confuzzlement be lessened, :therethere:if only by a degree.

The Law:


CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND CORRECTIONS Chapter 924
CRIMINAL APPEALS AND COLLATERAL REVIEW View Entire Chapter

924.14 Stay of execution when defendant appeals.—An appeal by a defendant from either the judgment or sentence shall stay execution of the sentence, subject to the provisions of s. 924.065.
History.—s. 293a, ch. 19554, 1939; CGL 1940 Supp. 8663(303); s. 151, ch. 70-339.





As I was saying, It looks like the stay is a matter of law.

Timeframe for notice and hearing will follow the criminal rules we discussed before.
Generally, all criminal appeals follow the same course. If time limits and other requirements change , it will be for death cases.

:up:Kombayah :up: Kombayah :up:

You are very welcome! :blushing: Glad to help!

I'll read through the Crim Pro Rules to see if there is anything else on the stay we want to know.

MH
:wolf:
sharing an opinion:seeya:

I have to jump in here because now I'm confused about the automatic stay thing when an appeal is filed.

The dude who so graciously flipped the bird at JA during the trial was asked by HHJP if he wanted to appeal, and he said yes, didn't he? But he wasn't granted a stay, his butt was cuffed and hauled off to jail. So what am I missing here?

Thanks lawyers for your time and patience with us not so lawyery folks.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

I have to jump in here because now I'm confused about the automatic stay thing when an appeal is filed.

The dude who so graciously flipped the bird at JA during the trial was asked by HHJP if he wanted to appeal, and he said yes, didn't he? But he wasn't granted a stay, his butt was cuffed and hauled off to jail. So what am I missing here?Thanks lawyers for your time and patience with us not so lawyery folks.

bold added.



The answer is : THIS:


:http://www.cfnews13.com/static/articles/images/documents/Motion_to_Stay_Sentence__Motion_For_Post-Conviction_Release__Order_on_Matthew_Bartlett.pdf

State VS The Dude

The defendant who did not have a statutory right to an automatic stay, as in State VS your dude, would have to file a motion asking for the stay.
The motion was filed. It was denied.


MH sharing an opinion:wolf:
:seeya: