Let's talk about the cat ...

[missy1974]

I briefly went looking earlier to see what the studies say about groups compared to individuals alone mistreating animals and it later leading to violent behaviour. I couldn't find anything, but I didn't look too hard. In my brief looking.... I did notice that this is usually behaviour that starts as a child, not as an adult.

Either way.... I would like to know why Jerry and Peter didn't get charged.... Jerry was a "party" and obviously Peter was there too. ( I do remember a family member saying on fb that another family member was a part of that, and it wasn't just SA.... I have to think it was Peter now that I've seen the report) Just because they tattle on themselves, they shouldn't get a free pass.... but maybe in MCSD's eyes.... tattling on SA might.

 

[missy1974]

tHousands of people don't think of an animal the way others do.

I personally a could care less what someone does with their cat, dog, bird, mouse. I only care when they harm another human, I dont think this make me "wrong" or a psychopath becasue some "book" says so.

I respect your love for animals, I just dont share the same love .

My mother in law hated hated hated cats. To the point that we had to put the cats downstairs when she came because of course.... they LOVED her LOL

 

[missy1974]

and to be fair.... there are other studies that indicate that it is not the case.

from a reference in the link that Madeleine shared:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/witness/201205/homicidal-triad-predictor-violence-or-urban-myth

But subsequent attempts to replicate Hellman and Blackman's findings were unsuccessful. Even John Macdonald himself voiced later doubt about the triad's validity. After trying to test his own clinical theory, Macdonald reported in his 1968 book, Homicidal Threats, that he could find no statistically significant association between homicide perpetrators and early problems with firesetting, cruelty to animals, or enuresis.

 

[missy1974]

Here is another interesting quote from the link I shared in my last post:

Ryan warns that promotion of the triad has real-world ramifications, in that children who exhibit one or more of these behaviors "might be falsely labeled as potentially dangerous."

For example, police officers exposed to the triad in undergraduate criminology courses may target young offenders who have lit a fire or harmed an animal — both fairly common behaviors among troubled youth — as future sex fiends or serial killers. (Enuresis, with less face validity as an indicator of sadism, has tended to drop from more contemporary renditions of the triad.)

Which is exactly what some of us have been saying. That not EVERYONE becomes a killer. Some people may just have other issues that have led to their behaviour, whether it's abuse, upbringing, etc.

 

[chaleigh26]

There are studies that show correlation between animal torture/killing and sociopathic behaviors. I linked just one of them. There are hundreds out there. Not my opinion. Fact.

That anyone can excuse animal torture or attempt to minimize it is quite astounding.

I would have to say I'd agree with you Madeleine, IF SA had an ongoing history of animal abuse,
Oh and apart from the links you supply ,the rest of your post is still only your opinion.

 

[LifeCitizen]

There are studies that show correlation between animal torture/killing and sociopathic behaviors. I linked just one of them. There are hundreds out there. Not my opinion. Fact.

That anyone can excuse animal torture or attempt to minimize it is quite astounding.

I don't excuse it and feel exactly like you do, I am the biggest animal lover.

But one drunken incident 30 years ago doesnt = must be a murderer.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Since we are on the cat subject, I find it ironic Sarah Gee's Twitter statement about cats and her being on the Avery case.

https://twitter.com/SarahGee1987

 

[shadowraiths]

No, it's a big red flag when it's EVER done. Period. No excuses.

Cite, please?

 

[dexter75]

Junk Science,

I DO like her!

Thinking back and thinking it through, in my opinion, this is worded quite well =) KZ's tweet.

The cat post is ironic!

Since we are on the cat subject, I find it ironic Sarah Gee's Twitter statement about cats and her being on the Avery case.

https://twitter.com/SarahGee1987

 

[dexter75]

THIS,

and correlation doesn't equal CONFIRMED, 100% WILL BE.

I don't excuse it and feel exactly like you do, I am the biggest animal lover.

But one drunken incident 30 years ago doesnt = must be a murderer.

 

[dexter75]

Small-scale studies conducted by psychiatrists Daniel Hellman and Nathan Blackman, and then FBI agents John E. Douglas and Robert K. Ressler along with Dr. Ann Burgess, claimed substantial evidence for the association of these childhood patterns with later predatory behavior.[2] Although it remains an influential and widely taught theory, subsequent research has generally not validated this line of thinking.[3][4]

The triad links cruelty to animals, obsession with fire setting, and persistent bedwetting past a certain age, to violent behaviors, particularly homicidal behavior and sexually predatory behavior.[5] However, other studies claim to have not found statistically significant links between the triad and violent offenders.

Further studies have suggested that these behaviors are actually more linked to childhood experience of parental neglect, brutality or abuse. Some argue this in turn results in "homicidal proneness".[6] The "triad" concept as a particular combination of behaviors linked to violence may not have any particular validity –

BBM

This is from the link you provided, Madeleine74,

This particular link/source, is NOT fact, it is theory based on small studies. Unless you were referring to FACT there are hundreds of studies? In that case, if they're all BASED on this criteria and theorize all subject(s) " could be " crazy killers or sexual sadists, IMO they are just that, Opinion.

There are studies that show correlation between animal torture/killing and sociopathic behaviors. I linked just one of them. There are hundreds out there. Not my opinion. Fact.

That anyone can excuse animal torture or attempt to minimize it is quite astounding.

 

[TheDuchess]

I also did a cursory search for articles on the subject and was surprised (but not) that almost everything I found in the first 3 pages of google results were articles by animal rights groups.


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[dexter75]

Thank you!!

Case studies like this bother me and yet can be taken as gospel depending on one's mindset/education/life experience.

I personally, try to keep in mind

The SIZE of the study. Just how many "messed up " subjects, were/are being " studied "

The person(s) conducting the study. As we ALL know from reading here on WS, EVERYONE sees people & situations differently and with some bias.

The subject(s) being studied. People exaggerate, lie, omit pertinent information. And CHILDREN/TEENS, IMO, their environment would also play a role, in the outcome of said study.

and to be fair.... there are other studies that indicate that it is not the case.

from a reference in the link that Madeleine shared:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/witness/201205/homicidal-triad-predictor-violence-or-urban-myth

 

[dexter75]

And rightfully so =) The advocating by activists, I mean.

I don't blame them at all for being passionate and driven, giving animals a voice =)

I'm NOT missing your point

I also did a cursory search for articles on the subject and was surprised (but not) that almost everything I found in the first 3 pages of google results were articles by animal rights groups.


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[dexter75]

YOU,
thinking the same as I am, reading each post!

JMHO that we do not know the ENTIRE story, or at least, the WHY.

WHY just SA?

I briefly went looking earlier to see what the studies say about groups compared to individuals alone mistreating animals and it later leading to violent behaviour. I couldn't find anything, but I didn't look too hard. In my brief looking.... I did notice that this is usually behaviour that starts as a child, not as an adult.

Either way.... I would like to know why Jerry and Peter didn't get charged.... Jerry was a "party" and obviously Peter was there too. ( I do remember a family member saying on fb that another family member was a part of that, and it wasn't just SA.... I have to think it was Peter now that I've seen the report) Just because they tattle on themselves, they shouldn't get a free pass.... but maybe in MCSD's eyes.... tattling on SA might.

 

[missy1974]

BBM. Thank you! This is what I love about Websleuths. So many different eyes/ears/minds that catch various parts that I may have missed. Anyway, wanted to explicitly thank you, outside of just clicking the "thanks" button.

I finally got a chance to go back and listen to the dispatch calls. It's around the 28:30 mark, dispatch/officer are discussing the incident #, it being deactivated/reactivated when RAV4 was found. I know it doesn't answer when they put "suspect - homicide", but it might explain why it says 11/3/2005 .... I really think it was just updated as they went along. IMO

[video=youtube;GrzJQq2EkO4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrzJQq2EkO4[/video]

 

[Limaes]

Not sure how this is becoming a grey area. Setting fire to a cat is cruel. Surely everyone can agree on this one.

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[TheDuchess]

Not sure how this is becoming a grey area. Setting fire to a cat is cruel. Surely everyone can agree on this one.

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I haven't seen anyone say it isn't cruel.


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[BigCityAccountant]

I haven't seen anyone say it isn't cruel.


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I agree. I think the discussion is more of whether one believes being cruel to an animal is a predictor to someone becoming a murderer.

 

[Madeleine74]

Torture and killing of animals is one sign of sociopathy. It demonstrates a lack of empathy. Not every sociopath tortures and kills animals. Some sociopaths do go on to murder. Not all, some. As I posted yesterday, it's not a 1:1 correlation.

- There can be sociopaths who have never killed or tortured anyone ever, including animals.
- There can be sociopaths who do torture and/or kill animals and never harmed a human.
- There can be sociopaths who never have hurt an animal but have killed a human.
- There can be sociopaths who have done both, tortured/killed an animal and killed a human.

We know for a fact SA did torture and kill a defenseless animal.

It also appears, based on the facts presented at trial, that SA also killed a human being.