Lie Detector Tests & Corruption: A public figure speaks out

[1Chump]

SBM & BBM

First, 1Chump, I wish I had some magical way to take away your guilt; there aren't words for how painful that all sounds. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

The bolded part addresses my own question: is it even possible for the subconscious mind to reason from the person's own definition to another person's (quite different) definition?
I really, really doubt that it works that way. Anyone who wants to experiment with it, try taking one or more of the implicit association tests at:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

These tests measure the test taker's emotional positive or negative association with various concepts (race, fat vs thin, etc). The interesting thing is that it doesn't matter what your philosophical convictions about the issue are; it measures what your unconscious associations are. Which can be very different from your philosophical convictions.

I can think of two friends right now, one who failed a polygraph falsely and one who passed a polygraph falsely.

The friend who failed had been accused of assaulting a man in an empty residence hall corridor. No witnesses to the beginning of the incident, it was just he said, she said. A witness did hear something in the corridor and came out of his dorm room to check it out. That witness saw a small woman (my friend) literally bouncing off a wall, as if she had been shoved violently or thrown against the wall. The man claimed my friend initiated an assault and that he "pushed her away" in self defence.

The man showed the police a faint mark on his skin that he claimed came from her fingernails; she kept her fingernails extremely short because she had a job in a biology lab where contamination of cultures was always a concern. He was over 6 feet tall and weighed something like 200 pounds; she was 4 foot 10 inches tall and weighed 85 pounds. He had several previous arrests for various kinds of assault (but no convictions), she had no previous arrests at all.

The police asked each of them to take a polygraph. He passed, she failed. The police decided not to file any charges anyway because the evidence was so flimsy and the chief witness so unbelievable.

I am convinced that my friend did not suddenly assault a man over a foot taller and over 100 pounds heavier than she. She was not violent, she was very into nonviolence as a philosophy (this was the early 1980s) and my friend was not crazy.

She said the officer that administered the polygraph said he thought she failed because after the incident, she was scared and angry; she had some fantasies and vivid dreams about physically harming the man (who she claimed initiated the assault from start to finish). Just asking her about the incident was enough to trigger a visible reaction (she would flush, her pupils would contract, etc).

I have a friend who has to take periodic polygraphs as part of his job. He has passed each time, including the questions about illegal drugs (his job does not involve driving or operating heavy machinery, unless you count a calculator as heavy machinery). I know that he has an interesting life outside of work and that it includes frequent experiences with recreational substances.

And yet he passes the polygraph each time. He sincerely and honestly feels that his off work activities are none of his employer's business and that as all of his job evaluations have been outstanding, whatever he chooses to do outside of work is clearly not affecting his performance.

And my last thought is this: for thousands of years, humans have tried to understand emotional responses. Without much success but leaving a lot of great art and literature as evidence of the attempt.

I am completely unconvinced that a machine can do better in understanding emotional responses than, say, someone like William Shakespeare.

BBM - Exactly...since when does logic EVER play a part in emotions. Logically the LTD analyst may have told him the definition but that was not his emotional definition.

Too many things beyond emotions factor into emotional responses. Things beyond our understanding.

 

[CathyinTexas]

Me, too.

And I still want to know, if there was someone around or in the Horman truck--did TH lock the truck that day?

Small point, but important.

First of all, why would that not have been mentioned at the beginning of all this? If they knew, they certainly would have included the other person in her truck then, not just her mentioned her and her truck. Also, it has been stated there are thousands of white trucks registered in the community, that is the case in our small county here in Texas. Have they determined whether any one or more of the parents, teachers, administration, other staff members, volunteers there THAT day, drove a white truck. I certainly hope so, but I am doubtful.

 

[CathyinTexas]

>But I believe there is a difference between saying LE has made mistakes and asserting "witch-hunts" ..."cover-ups"...and deliberate LE attempts to target Terri to protect someone in the power elite of the area.<QUOTE

It could be protecting the integrity of the school, they would have hysteria in the community if it had been stated that someone was able to abduct a child from that school. So it may be a form of management, and control of the whole. LE seemed to exonerate them almost immediately if my memory is correct.

 

[CathyinTexas]

bbm

I have suspicions about that claim because there was a 911 call to the police in May (I believe) from the Horman house. That call has been sealed at the request of LE. If this landscaper believed seriously that TH had solicited him for a murder-for-hire plot, why did he wait to notify the police. It seems odd to me that he is dug up by LE investigating Kyron's disappearance and he suddenly remembers that TH wanted him to kill her husband??? This sounds very much like a quid pro quo deal to me...for example, what can you tell us to help out here and we'll forget that you're in the country illegally. Maybe I'm wrong, it won't be the first time.

I just need to reiterate that I don't have a firm opinion of TH's guilt or innocence yet. For the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can have a firm conviction one way or the other, based on the meager information we have been given. I just feel strongly that LE has focussed on TH to the exclusion of equally possible theories. Primary among those is a child predator on the loose and escaping capture. I understand DY's mother's instinct, but I too believe that her suspicions from the onset (as she herself has related) have steered and bolstered LE's efforts in this case. I actually wish that they're correct in their focus because at least we'll know that a maniac is not on the prowl for more innocent children.

For the sake of fairness, what if there was a discussion about killing KH. But the suggestion really came from the illegal alien "witness". Maybe Terri did complain or comment about KH, (why would they not allow the 911 call to be made public, if it was Terri's fault, they would imo, so....) and maybe he jokingly said he could kill him for a price. Is that a possiblity? Or, it could be totally fabricated by this person? He must not be a credible witness or they would have charged her with conspiracy to commit murder! Because they haven't and we have heard little about it since the news was first reported, I believe they don't believe it and went on a wild goose chase. Yet the public still does believe it apparently.

 

[grandmaj]

I've read a few times in this thread that the Landscaper is illegal alien. Who has a link that the Landscaper is of illegal alien status? Thanks.

 

[ami]

I have a very close friend who had to take a LDT as part of his job application to become a police officer. One of the questions he was asked is if he had used any illegal narcotics in the past two years. He paused to do the math in his head because he had tried pot one summer when he was 16 y/o. He was 21 when he took this LDT. When he answered the question "NO, he hadn't used in the past two years!" the LDT indicated that he was being deceitful when he wasn't. He didn't get the job.

Because he knew that question would more than likely be posed to him on future LE job interviews, he passed with flying colors on the next LDT and became a police officer with no problems. He's now a criminal defense attorney and would never advise any of his clients guilty or innocent to submit to a LDT.

This is why they usually (as far as I've had experience with - always) go over the questions before the test itself. They're not trying to trip you up and get you to fail - they are trying to get specific information.

This is why they sit down before the test with the list of questions. Anything at all that you're confused about (like pot smoking at 16... is that two years ago or not, etc) you can verbalize to them and sort out BEFORE the test happens. You tell the analyst in the pre-test discussion: "well, when I was 16 I smoked pot, but that was 5 years ago." Then, during the test, they say, "Besides the pot you smoked at age 16 that we've already discussed, have you used any drugs?"

This way they get the accurate answers to the questions they're interested in like whether you've embezzled or helped a friend embezzle and not leftover guilt from the lollipop you stole at age 4.

 

[sorrell skye]

I have zero actual evidence to show TH is guilty of anything. LE has released nothing. I don't care about money hungry, sex crazy allegations or possible personality disorders, her lack of use of her master's, etc. None of that impresses me as evidence of a reason to sway me towards guilt.
I have seen reports that have not been substantiated that would together support guilt in my mind which have nothing to do with her moral character or career path, marriages, divorces, affairs, whatever. But I won't go into those because those were not the one thing that convinced me of her guilt.
That one thing is giving up her baby by refusing to fight the RO, or the allegations therein and by trying to abate the disso. As a lawyer who has practiced primarily family law since 2002, with lots of that including DV cases, this points to TH's guilt to me.
I have posted extensively on why that is but she has seriously prejudiced her ability to regain any significant custody of her daughter. The only way I would recommend such a tactic to a client who loved his or her children and desperately wanted significant contact with their kids is if I knew my client was guilty of something criminal that could result in serious prison time. This is based on my experience as a family law attorney and the knowledge that has afforded me as to how custody and visitation works.
Essentially, IMO, no mother would give up custody and visitation rights (which TH absolutely has for now), over unproven allegations that amount to nothing more than hearsay. Kaine would have had to trot in LE investigators and present evidence to substantiate those allegations in order for him to prevail in his RO application but TH just lay down and accepted the RO and the loss of any form of contact with her baby, for whom she was the primary caregiver, allowing those allegations to remain unchallenged. That tells me she has something to hide in connection to those allegations.
People have proposed various reasons for why this may not be significant. None, from a legal or logic standpoint, make sense to me. (Like, she's just waiting for her chance to fight until some undisclosed time in the future, or that Baby K is safer with Kaine due to threats and there apparently is no way for her to have ANY contact with the child that would be safe - IMO nonsense - or that she lacks the resources to fight for custody or to have custody so she just gave it all up and thus prejudiced her ability to regain custody in the future, etc.).
What do I think she is guilty of? Either custodial interference or kidnapping and murder. I won't know until more evidence is released and/or more evidence is discovered by LE.
Let me add that when I first began reading on the Kyron thread, I left for a while because I felt that some of the things being said about TH were unfair and a huge stretch and had nothing to do with whether she is involved. I had no opinion either way regarding her involvement. The RO stuff then came out and caught my attention. TH's reaction to those allegations threw me off the fence, hard!

You make some very valid points, Gitana. Thank you for taking the time to explain your thought processes that have led you to believe that TH is involved in Kyron's disappearance.

Based on your professional experience, do you suppose the reason TH did not contest the RO might be due to her possible involvement in trying to hire a *hit man* to kill her husband - since that was the reason KH moved out, filed for divorce, and sought the RO in the first place (and maybe her refusal to contest the RO has nothing to do with any alleged involvement in Kyron's disappearance)?

IOW - perhaps the MFH plot is/was true, and in order to have the RO lifted, wouldn't TH have had to testify regarding the MFH allegations, and wouldn't the LS have been called to testify as well?

I'm not defending TH when I ask this, just speculating on the possibility that perhaps the MFH allegations might be factual, but at the same time maybe TH had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance. I think it's entirely possible that TH may have had a conversation with the LS 7-8 months ago regarding a hit on KH. I think it's also obvious that she abandoned the idea (since KH is still very much alive).

IMO, this scenario could explain her refusal to contest the RO, and could also explain some of her other behaviors that have seemed odd, illogical, etc.

Again, I'm not defending TH, nor am I defending any involvement she may have had in an alleged MFH plot. But I'm not yet ready to believe that she's involved in Kyron's disappearance, even if it comes out that she was indeed involved in a MFH plot against KH (a plot that was never carried out, for one reason or another - maybe she came to her senses & changed her mind?).

I understand completely why many people suspect TH in Kyron's disappearance - especially if the MFH is true. I understand the obvious logic that if someone would try to hire a hit on their spouse (if true), who knows what they're capable of?

In my mind, though, it's possible that she may be guilty of one (attempting to solicit the murder of her husband) without necessarily being guilty of the other (kidnapping/custodial interference or murder of a child).

This is a tough case. All I want is the truth to come out - and, if possible, for Kyron to come home.

MOO

 

[CathyinTexas]

Not gitana, obviously, but I don't think she was literally asking what the question was. What I *think* she meant is that when it came time to mark Kyron absent, or take the class to lunch, or get ready for the talent show, or whatever, no one seemed to remember the concerned "where's kyron" question because they would have said, "omg, he didn't ever come back from the water fountain or bathroom!" In other words, there is tension between the teacher saying he was at the water fountain or bathroom in response to a concerned inquiry, then that same teacher not noticing or being concerned when he never came back. In the first scenario, he's clearly missing. In the second scenario, he left with TH to go to the dr.'s. They are totally inconsistent if true. It's been bugging me for a long time, too. I have concluded that LE has talked to the volunteer parent and the teacher (who we know appeared before the GJ) and has discounted TP's version of events. I would love to know why, of course, but doubt I ever will. jmoo

Pressure from the authorities and school administrators perhaps? Someone pointed out that TP's grandmother, who is married to a retired LE thought it was significant.

 

[CathyinTexas]

bbm

I thought the principal went before the GJ, with a "statement" from the teacher?

If so, that is strange, and supports the damage control element in all of this. How can that be allowed?

 

[CathyinTexas]

Do we know he filed for divorce "without even talking to her?"

We do know that police told him that the Landscaper had alleged Terri tried to hire him to kill Kaine.

I'm guessing that an Engineer data-driven type like Kaine would need more than just.... "he-said/she-said....to believe that story.

But at the least, it appears he DID believe the story. If he believed she tried to kill him, and his little boy is missing, and he has a Baby to protect...what exactly is "suspicious" about Kaine leaving? Should he have stayed? Should he have left the Baby, in those circumstances?

Let's remember...his son is already missing.

If Kaine were my son and Baby K, my grandchild, I would want him out of there once "murder-for-hire" came into the story. I would never imagine that would make him an object of suspicion.

Maybe so, but he did seem very trusting and supportive as well as defensive about Terri, until the testimony from the landscaper, and he filed a protection order on her, so I doubt he spoke with her because of this. Again, if the witness was a credible one, they would have charged her with this crime by now.

 

[grandmaj]

If so, that is strange, and supports the damage control element in all of this. How can that be allowed?

http://www.kptv.com/news/24570950/detail.html


Also on Monday, a Portland grand jury continued to hear testimony and Kyron's homeroom teacher, Kristina Porter, was seen leaving the courthouse. She did not comment on the session.

 

[Steely Dan]

For the sake of fairness, what if there was a discussion about killing KH. But the suggestion really came from the illegal alien "witness". Maybe Terri did complain or comment about KH, (why would they not allow the 911 call to be made public, if it was Terri's fault, they would imo, so....) and maybe he jokingly said he could kill him for a price. Is that a possiblity? Or, it could be totally fabricated by this person? He must not be a credible witness or they would have charged her with conspiracy to commit murder! Because they haven't and we have heard little about it since the news was first reported, I believe they don't believe it and went on a wild goose chase. Yet the public still does believe it apparently.

Can you supply a link that shows he was an illegal alien? I have never heard that before.

Maybe so, but he did seem very trusting and supportive as well as defensive about Terri, until the testimony from the landscaper, and he filed a protection order on her, so I doubt he spoke with her because of this. Again, if the witness was a credible one, they would have charged her with this crime by now.

BBM

I think the failed attempt to get her to admit to it while being taped scuttled any possibility of her being charged based on a he said/she said basis.

 

[grandmaj]

From the questions and answers via email.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/99143584.html

Why has the sheriff&#8217;s department pulled back so drastically from talking to the media/public about this case?

* This is an ongoing criminal investigation, our responsibility is to resolve this case and bring Kyron home. We are not going to release details of our efforts that will breach the integrity of this investigation or potential prosecution at a later date. If we have information that would benefit our investigation, or help in finding Kyron we will release it.
------------------------------------------------------
While you have said this is a criminal investigation, do you believe a crime was committed in Kyron&#8217;s disappearance?

* Criminal behavior has occurred and we will continue to investigate toward a resolution.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Can we have the list of law enforcement agencies that have assisted in the Kyron Horman investigation?


* Gresham Police, Fairview Police, Troutdale Police, Portland Police, Port of Portland Police, Clackamas County Sheriff&#8217;s Office, Clackamas County DA MCT, Multnomah County DA&#8217;s investigators, Washington County District Attorney&#8217;s Office, Washington County Sheriff&#8217;s Office, Gladstone Police, Oregon City Police, Milwaukie Police, Canby Police, Lake Oswego Police, West Linn Police, Vancouver Police, Hillsboro Police, Beaverton Police, FBI, DEA, ICE, Secret Service, DOD Defense Criminal Investigative Services, Oregon DOJ, Oregon State Police.

IMO those are some serious Law Enforcement agencies. FBI; DEA; ICE: Secret Service.
Any misdirection one agency might erroneously take, would surely be redirected with the assistance of the multitude of these other agencies including the State and Federal Agencies.


This list does not include search and rescue resources.

 

[stmarysmead]

Though I have watched NG for a long time, I am apalled at how many times she states something as fact when most of us in the public already know the true facts, which aren't what she is reporting!

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. So unless we have proof of conspiracies, "witch-hunts", "cover-ups" etc by LE or the school system or anyone...should we not exercise the same caution we would like Nancy Grace to exhibit?

Some are suggesting on this thread that there is a conspiracy to protect the school, to avoid panic, etc. Are we seriously accusing real people at the school of covering up a death or interfering with an investigation of a missing child? Are there links to anything that lends credibility that supports assailing REAL reputations of those in LE or on the school board?

Please link to credible support for these accusations before we assail REAL people's reputations in the same way we criticize Nancy Grace for doing so.

This is not fiction. These are real people with real jobs in a real community with REAL names and families!

 

[sorrell skye]

FBI; DEA; ICE, & the Secret Service provided assistance in the investigation early on.

IMO, those agencies were initially consulted with to help the MCSO ascertain or rule in/rule out any possible kidnapping/ransom scenario & possible drug/human trafficking element, since those areas are the expertise of those specific agencies.

Anyone else have any ideas why those agencies would have been involved during the first few weeks?

 

[grandmaj]

If there is any possibility that they believe Kyron was taken into Canada I would think some of the Federal Agencies would still be involved.

 

[sorrell skye]

If there is any possibility that they believe Kyron was taken into Canada I would think some of the Federal Agencies would still be involved.

This scenario gives me hope that Kyron may still be alive & may be reunited with his family.

Is there any current info about whether or not the FBI, DEA, ICE, or the Secret Service are still assisting in the investigation?

 

[grandmaj]

This scenario gives me hope that Kyron may still be alive & may be reunited with his family.

Is there any current info about whether or not the FBI, DEA, ICE, or the Secret Service are still assisting in the investigation?

I wish, as well as you and everyone else I would imagine. There are so few facts being reported. Very tight investigation. I keep telling myself not to hope too much because it will hurt more if Kyron is not alive.

 

[1Chump]

Do you believe that LE focused too much on KC?

I know very little about the Casey Anthony case. I stopped following it early on because of the prosecution's actions in playing to the court of public opinion. As well as certain media personalities who decided she was guilty so misrepresented the law and evidence to convict her in the court of public opinion. I am talking like week two and three I was seeing that happening. What little I do know since the prosecutor focused on her and made me angry, I would have to say "yes" I believe LE focused on her too much.

The problem with tunnel vision is not just that they may be wrong. But also that they may be right but they see evidence where none exists or miss evidence that could give the defendant "reasonable" doubt.

I have always said that I could NEVER, NEVER do criminal defense. Although I strongly believe in our Constitution and everyone has the right to a fair trial, I could not live with myself if I thought I helped to get someone off that I felt was guilty or worse if a client I believed was innocent was convicted.

However, the Casey Anthony made me eat my words. My friends were SHOCKED to hear me say that if I was healthy enough, I would love to volunteer to work on her defense. If she is guilty, I want her convicted because the prosecutor proved she was guilty with evidence, not because the juror were convinced from the court of public opinion before they ever heard any testimony. If she is acquitted, I want her acquitted because she did not do it, not because their tunnel vision made them not see potential problems and/or evidence that could give her reasonable doubt so did not investigate it properly to prove it did not give her reasonable doubt

I understand how Casey Anthony has all those experts volunteerring. Just like them, my dream is to work on appeals with organizations like the Innocent Project. Appeals are not about guilt and/or innocence but about our rights, our laws. Casey Anthony is the chance to make sure that she receives a fair trial with all her rights intact before conviction. If she is convicted, she is convicted on the evidence, not due to court of public opinion. Although it may be extremely hard to find jurors who can really put aside their "opinions" and only follow the law. You always run the risk of someone wanting to be on a high profile jury for nefarious reasons.

I also see many similarities between Casey Anthony and Terri Horman before they were arrested. They have been convicted in the court of public opinion without one shred of real evidence. Since Casey was arrested, yes there have been document dumps but not before her arrest.

With all the information that has been "reported" about Terri Horman, most of those reports are not from direct sources but hearsay and usually double or triple hearsay. We have no way of knowing if what si reported is what they were told or even if what they were told was the truth.

Because of my legal experience, I see everything from a "legal" point of view. The best example of this would be Kaine's statements in the RO

"I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010. I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me,'' Kaine Horman wrote in his petition. "The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/judge_releases_restraining_ord.html

I know some have read it as LE has probable cause that TH is involved in Kyron's disappearance and the MFH. However, I do not see that at all. I read it as Kaine, himself has probable cause, to believe what LE told him. However, we do not know what it takes to give Kaine probable cause. Did LE show Kaine "actual" evidence to make him believe it? Or did Kaine want to believe it so he took LE's word?

We know LE does not have "probable cause" because Terri has not been arrested for anything. At the very least, if they had probable cause to arrest Terri for the MFH, they would do it. The MFH case is not the one they care about. Any prosecutor would be willing to throw away that case for Kyron's case. strictly to pressure her. The problem with the MFH is that the most they could get her for would be "attempted muder for hire." But even that is doubtful. Because there is nothing to suggest that Terri ever tried to go through with murdering Kaine. So what did it take for Kaine to believe it?

Even if I assume that Kaine is correct and LE did tell him that, I do not know if LE was truthful. LE is "legally" allowed to lie. If you pass a LDT, they can tell you that you failed. LE can lie and tell you that they have a witness who puts you some place you never were. So anything Kaine says LE told him does not mean that LE told Kaine the truth.

Only a few statements have come directly from the person who has personal knowledge The landscaper which puts a man and a white truck in the vicinity where LE is asking if anyone saw the Horman truck and someone around it other than Terri. We have the witness to Terri being at Fred Myers when she said she did.

IMO, most the direct statements support what little we know about Terri's timeline. All the other stuff is rumors, speculation and hearsay from people who LE has convinced that Terri was involved so their statements are now twinged with Terri did it so what now looks suspicious to me that did not before I believed Terri did.

If Terri did it...I want her convicted in a court of law. Any time any LE either directly or indirectly starts playing to the court of public opinion, it makes me question them. Because it tells me that they know they do not have a case for a court of law so they are trying psychological warfare to try to make someone "confess." It is great if the guilty person confesses. However, studies have shown that innocent men who confessed to crimes they did not do confessed because of that psychological warfare not because they were guilty.

If a case cannot be made without resorting to such tactics, maybe they need to look at the evidence through a "new" lense to see if it points to someone or somewhere else.

My opinion and my opinion only.

 

[1Chump]

From the questions and answers via email.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/99143584.html

Why has the sheriff’s department pulled back so drastically from talking to the media/public about this case?

* This is an ongoing criminal investigation, our responsibility is to resolve this case and bring Kyron home. We are not going to release details of our efforts that will breach the integrity of this investigation or potential prosecution at a later date. If we have information that would benefit our investigation, or help in finding Kyron we will release it.
------------------------------------------------------
While you have said this is a criminal investigation, do you believe a crime was committed in Kyron’s disappearance?

* Criminal behavior has occurred and we will continue to investigate toward a resolution.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Can we have the list of law enforcement agencies that have assisted in the Kyron Horman investigation?


* Gresham Police, Fairview Police, Troutdale Police, Portland Police, Port of Portland Police, Clackamas County Sheriff’s Office, Clackamas County DA MCT, Multnomah County DA’s investigators, Washington County District Attorney’s Office, Washington County Sheriff’s Office, Gladstone Police, Oregon City Police, Milwaukie Police, Canby Police, Lake Oswego Police, West Linn Police, Vancouver Police, Hillsboro Police, Beaverton Police, FBI, DEA, ICE, Secret Service, DOD Defense Criminal Investigative Services, Oregon DOJ, Oregon State Police.

IMO those are some serious Law Enforcement agencies. FBI; DEA; ICE: Secret Service.
Any misdirection one agency might erroneously take, would surely be redirected with the assistance of the multitude of these other agencies including the State and Federal Agencies.


This list does not include search and rescue resources.

IMO, most of those listed were part of the rapid response teams not actual investigators.

The FBI crime lab can only analyze evidence. They have no control with what happens with their report. Same for any other "agencies." They turn anything/everything they have for the lead agency.

Ulimately it is up to the lead law enforcement ageny and/or prosecutor what they do or don't with evidence or if they feel something is not evidence.

To paraphrase "One man's evidence may be another man's trash."