Lies point us to the truth #2

[Rain on my Parade]

My friends, I have long thought that this was a family affair, id is an intra-family death . I changed my mind in hindsight: Patty or John could never have done the act of withers. I think we should look around them.
Very few parents would be able to gargle their six-year-old daughter unless they were mentally ill. We have to think about that.

Always focusing on the mother is participating in the witch hunt. This is soon 2023.

Lonicera,
Ask yourself why PR fiber evidence is found not only in the ligature but in the paint tray, carpet, blanket and tape (of the sweater she wore that night and the next day)?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Lonicera,
Ask yourself why PR fiber evidence is found not only in the ligature but in the paint tray, carpet, blanket and tape (of the sweater she wore that night and the next day)?

Her coat, actually. Why she would have worn it inside for the murder is anyone's guess.

But Patsy's coat was red, black and gray, checkered. Probably this. Yet only red fibers from it was found, in the paint tray, carpet, blanket and tape. Or course, fibers can't be matched to specific garments. Clothes are massproduced, after all. If it is manufactured from the same kind of cloth, it will show as the same, hence the recent criticism against relying on fiber evidence. The absence of black and grey fibers is a strike against the source being Patsy's coat.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Her coat, actually. Why she would have worn it inside for the murder is anyone's guess.

But Patsy's coat was red, black and gray, checkered. Probably this. Yet only red fibers from it was found, in the paint tray, carpet, blanket and tape. Or course, fibers can't be matched to specific garments. Clothes are massproduced, after all. If it is manufactured from the same kind of cloth, it will show as the same, hence the recent criticism against relying on fiber evidence. The absence of black and grey fibers is a strike against the source being Patsy's coat.

McDuck,
But not her turtleneck sweater. And just to be clear here (IMOO), I would still link the scarf found on the wet bar as a contributor to the crime scene. I have always wondered why of all things JR departing gift to JB was a scarf?

Or perhaps the fibers came from the the Santa suit kept in the basement. After all JB stated she was expecting a visit from him after Christmas.

All this aside, it does not dismiss the fact that fibers in the ligature, paint tray, carpet, blanket and tape were a consistent match. Coincidence, I think not.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

McDuck,
But not her turtleneck sweater. And just to be clear here (IMOO), I would still link the scarf found on the wet bar as a contributor to the crime scene. I have always wondered why of all things JR departing gift to JB was a scarf?

Or perhaps the fibers came from the the Santa suit kept in the basement. After all JB stated she was expecting a visit from him after Christmas.

All this aside, it does not dismiss the fact that fibers in the ligature, paint tray, carpet, blanket and tape were a consistent match. Coincidence, I think not.

I agree, the fibers in all five places have the same origin, which I too suspect is a Santa suit, one the intruder had with him. That could also explain the unsourced beaver fur and the strange cotton found in the cellar along with questions about a Santa suit from the interviews with Patsy:

TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. 400 we've looked at before, a different angle.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right. That is down in the basement. It is like cotton or something.

TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know what that is?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know why cotton would be there.

TRIP DEMUTH: You don't recognize it?

PATSY RAMSEY: No.

TRIP DEMUTH: It doesn't mean anything to you?

PATSY RAMSEY: No.

TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Tom.

TOM HANEY: Do you ever remember seeing it in there?

PATSY RAMSEY: No.

TOM HANEY: Could it have come off of something?

PATSY RAMSEY: It could have come off -- well the Christmas tree is in there, but I don't know if they had cotton on them.

TOM HANEY: Did you use any kind of cotton batting like, or it appears to be a fairly big piece, not a real small piece like an Aspirin bottle.

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't know. I can't think of.

TOM HANEY: Anywhere, any decorating or crafts or --

PATSY RAMSEY: I can't think of any.

TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have any Santa suits?

PATSY RAMSEY: I had Santas. I did have a Santa suit. I stuffed the Santa sometimes.

TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Where was that?

PATSY RAMSEY: That should have been back in the Christmas room back, you know, in the shower back in there.

TRIP DEMUTH: If you walked past the laundry room, the shower to the storage room is at the end of that hallway, the room it would be in.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right there would be kind of a beard, but I don't know it was made out of cotton. It was kind of more like synthetic.

TRIP DEMUTH: That was -- the Santa suit was never in the window sill.

PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge.

Combine this with JonBenet's story of the upcoming Santa visit. This is why I believe the killer hung around the pageant circuit. He had the opportunity to put JonBenet off her guard when he removed her from her bed. Santa came into her room and carried her downstairs (the garland in her hair from the spiral stair railing) and into the basement.

EDIT: The scarf is certainly interesting, since I don't think it was something established as part of what they wore the day before. Also, it was found close to the flashlight. Then there was the strange light seen from the north:

Another neighbor, who lived just north of the Ramsey home, told police investigators that at midnight between December 25 and 26, he “looked out his kitchen window at the Ramsey residence and observed the upper kitchen lights were on and dimmed low.” He added that “this was the first time that he had seen these particular lights illuminated in the five years that he’d lived next door to the Ramseys. He said these lights are located in the ceiling above the kitchen window.” (BPD Report #1-99.) - Woodward, We Have Your Daughter

So around midnight, someone was skulking around the kitchen, turning on lights dimmed low and (perhaps) leaving a flashlight on the counter. What the whole point of the scarf was is a mystery to me, but I'd certainly like to know.

EDIT 2: (sorry for the extra edits) The fibers would not have been from the turtleneck sweater, since the police had that and could test against it. It is unlikely that a sweater would be made from the same material as a coat, and there, at least, the fiber test would provide a definite answer of exclusion.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Info on the baseball bat is here, and is ultimately sourced to the Ramsey interviews and the book by Steve Thomas

McDuck,
From your link above there is this:
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recognize this
3 particular bat?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Not, you know, like I said,
5 Burke would be the better one to know which was
6 his bat and which wasn't.
7 TOM HANEY: Sure.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
9 TOM HANEY: And would you be able to
10 distinguish one bat from another?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably not.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Not a big baseball,
13 softball fan, player?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay.

According to Judith Miller: Miller characterized her relationship with Patsy Ramsey and her family as "closer" after they moved, even playing intramural sports together. "In Boulder we became even closer friends. We were on a softball team together, 'Moms Gone Bad.” I understood the bat could have belonged to Patsy. According to PR statement above she was not a big baseball, softball fan. Did we catch her in a lie here?

Worth noting about the bats location:

• Evidence Door Found Open. "the butler's door to the kitchen was found ajar that morning. (SMF P 137; PSMF P 137.) Defendants note that the butler's door was only a short distance away from the spiral staircase where the Ransom Note was found and within plain view of where the pad of paper used for the Ransom Note was found. (SMF P 138; PSMF P 138.)" (Carnes 2003:89-90). Rocky Mountain News reported: "a police report noted that a Ramsey friend who arrived at the home shortly after 6 a.m., one of the first people there, said a door on the first floor -- called the butler door -- was ajar." The Ramsey friend likely was John Fernie.

The specific fibers and fur are sourced to the Beckner deposition, as well as Thomas, collected here.

According to ST: “. I agree with you on one issue about the beaver hair -- too bad there wasn’t a DA who would approve warrants and subpoenas for Patsy's fur garments, coats, boots, etc. That way we could have done comparison analyses, and determined if Patsy had anyting that "matched" or was "consistent". Or, for your argument, that didnt. I feel it would have been wise to take those steps, to determine whether there was a match, or not. It would have been invaluable to have known, to both sides.”

PR walked out of 755 15th St. on the 26th in a full length fur coat and a purse in the crock of her arm.

Here is the note from the Leopold and Loeb case. Two young men who always intended to kill their victim.

This is a real eye opener. The RN follows this note almost exactly! It was probably referenced; it is to similar!
The ‘young man reference’ you refer to, makes me wonder about JAR being involved again. After all it was his duvet and adult Dr. Seuss book in that suitcase. I wonder more now about the Santa Claus suit stored in the basement being used in this crime. Although it was collected I have never read it was sourced as a fiber match. Joe Barnhill stated he saw JAR enter the house on Christmas Day. JR had two airplanes. One of them could have been used to take JAR to Atlanta. Perhaps this is why JR phoned his pilot after finding JB and hired an attorney for both of his adult Children.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

That could also explain the unsourced beaver fur and the strange cotton found in the cellar

McDuck,
Here is a reference for the cotton found in the wine cellar:

.
Obviously once the fill was removed you could stuff the doll and head with let’s say extra size 12 bloomies. Why did PP collect the American girl dolls from JB room? Sure they would be worth money but after your child was murdered do you believe you would be concerned about that? I think not.
There is this source for the duct tape:
First, I want to thank Peggy (Little) for this information. It was posted first on Crime and Justice. I am grateful Peggy brought it to my attention.
http://pub165.ezboard.com/fcrimeandjustice13552frm78
Jahazafat worked for Pleasant Company. She saw the order in JonBenets name and where the doll was delivered to. Access Graphics. Jahazafat told me later that the order was paid for with a money order or cashiers check. No credit card trail.
Below is the email I received from Jahazafat concerning the dolls and the tape. Bold is mine.
```````````````````````````````````````````````````
I worked for Pleasant Company, owned by Mattel, which sells American Girl Dolls, from October 1998 to January 2004. I worked at a call center in Wilmot, Wisconsin. I worked as a variable order processor, which means I worked seasonally. The job was taking credit card phone orders for products and putting them into a computer system. It also involved fielding customer service issues and processing requests to mail the catalogue.
I read this in Perfect Murder, Perfect Town the last week of September 1999. "The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil painting, several American Girl dolls, a portfolio of JonBenet's pageant photograph. I first thought it a testament to the wonderful products that the dolls were so special to be removed. But when I got to the end of the book there was a list that mentioned the duct tape had to be from outside the house. I had specific training that if a customer called in and complained about the cord attaching the head to tell them to duct tape it down. It could also be tucked in the clothing or sewn, but never cut, and for safety reasons, never pinned. The duct tape was presented as proof of an intruder but the dolls have a verifiable connection to duct tape and the Ramseys were allowed to remove them from the crime scene.

Combine this with JonBenet's story of the upcoming Santa visit. This is why I believe the killer hung around the pageant circuit. He had the opportunity to put JonBenet off her guard when he removed her from her bed. Santa came into her room and carried her downstairs (the garland in her hair from the spiral stair railing) and into the basement.

There is no reason JB wouldn’t go with JAR especially if he was in a Santa suit. The room that you referenced earlier in regards to the rope and it’s location was JAR room. Yes, he could have made himself comfortable there awaiting her return. Perhaps it was his butt print found outside JB bedroom. He was also present for the party on the 23rd when the first 911 call was made. JB stating she didn’t feel pretty sitting on the spiral steps. Had she just been SA she would feel “ugly”. PR handed out scarfs to all the male‘s in attendance at this party. Maybe the scarf on the wet bar was actually his.
I suppose we should ask ourselves why Santa felt a need to add an additional ponytail to JB hair Mixed with green garland from the spiral staircase?
I am not saying this is the case but it is a possibility = JAR as suspect.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

McDuck,
From your link above there is this:
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recognize this
3 particular bat?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Not, you know, like I said,
5 Burke would be the better one to know which was
6 his bat and which wasn't.
7 TOM HANEY: Sure.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
9 TOM HANEY: And would you be able to
10 distinguish one bat from another?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably not.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Not a big baseball,
13 softball fan, player?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay.

According to Judith Miller: Miller characterized her relationship with Patsy Ramsey and her family as "closer" after they moved, even playing intramural sports together. "In Boulder we became even closer friends. We were on a softball team together, 'Moms Gone Bad.” I understood the bat could have belonged to Patsy. According to PR statement above she was not a big baseball, softball fan. Did we catch her in a lie here?

I think people stretch a lot to find lies in the Ramsey statements. A lot of people who do amateur sports aren't necessarily fans of the sport, but of the socialization aspect of it. How often did Patsy play? Was she still doing it at the time of the murder? Would she think of herself as a "big fan" or a "big player"? Also, baseball bats and softball bats are different.

Worth noting about the bats location:

• Evidence Door Found Open. "the butler's door to the kitchen was found ajar that morning. (SMF P 137; PSMF P 137.) Defendants note that the butler's door was only a short distance away from the spiral staircase where the Ransom Note was found and within plain view of where the pad of paper used for the Ransom Note was found. (SMF P 138; PSMF P 138.)" (Carnes 2003:89-90). Rocky Mountain News reported: "a police report noted that a Ramsey friend who arrived at the home shortly after 6 a.m., one of the first people there, said a door on the first floor -- called the butler door -- was ajar." The Ramsey friend likely was John Fernie.

I'm glad you mentioned it, since the placement of the bat is a great indication that the killer was an intruder. If a Ramsey did it, why place the bat outside the north door? If it was the murder weapon, placing it there would draw attention to it, rather than leaving it where it was found or removing it from the premises. And if it wasn't the murder weapon, it's an even odder placement.

But consider an intruder. He has used the bat as one of his murder weapons, and is about to leave. He decides against the window in the train room (if he entered through it) and instead goes for the butler door. But that means he has to go through the kitchen and pass the spiral staircase, and there is always the chance of encountering a parent. So he grabs the bat and carries it with him as he leaves the basement, moves through the kitchen and exits through the butler door. And since he is now safely outside the house and carrying a bat through the neighborhood might stand out, that's where he leaves it.

According to ST: “. I agree with you on one issue about the beaver hair -- too bad there wasn’t a DA who would approve warrants and subpoenas for Patsy's fur garments, coats, boots, etc. That way we could have done comparison analyses, and determined if Patsy had anyting that "matched" or was "consistent". Or, for your argument, that didnt. I feel it would have been wise to take those steps, to determine whether there was a match, or not. It would have been invaluable to have known, to both sides.”

PR walked out of 755 15th St. on the 26th in a full length fur coat and a purse in the crock of her arm.

They did take samples from the closet, I believe. Nothing has been announced as a match. Patsy had a mink coat, not beaver. I do wonder how exactly people imagine Patsy was dressed when she strangled her child in the cellar. A red-and-black checkered coat under another fur coat? Or red-black coat with fur lined boots combo?

It just strikes me as meaningful that the only garments people can point to as potential contributors to the fibers are the ones she'd be highly unlikely to wear during the murder.

This is a real eye opener. The RN follows this note almost exactly! It was probably referenced; it is to similar!
The ‘young man reference’ you refer to, makes me wonder about JAR being involved again. After all it was his duvet and adult Dr. Seuss book in that suitcase. I wonder more now about the Santa Claus suit stored in the basement being used in this crime. Although it was collected I have never read it was sourced as a fiber match. Joe Barnhill stated he saw JAR enter the house on Christmas Day. JR had two airplanes. One of them could have been used to take JAR to Atlanta. Perhaps this is why JR phoned his pilot after finding JB and hired an attorney for both of his adult Children.

Joe Barnhill saw a young man he thought was John Andrew. Pressed by Thomas, he said he didn't really know JA enough to recognize him. Also, John Andrew had flown from Marietta to Minneapolis with his sister at 8:30 am, where they were supposed to meet the rest of the Ramseys. The police confirmed that he had not been on a plane to Boulder before that, even if the numerous witnesses who saw him in Marietta on the evening of Christmas were all lying. He has been cleared completely; there is no chance he is the killer.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

McDuck,
Here is a reference for the cotton found in the wine cellar:

.
Obviously once the fill was removed you could stuff the doll and head with let’s say extra size 12 bloomies.

Why stuff extra size 12 bloomies in a doll? What would possibly be the purpose of that? If it was some staging thing and they had extra bloomies, why not just take them back to where they were? They freely admitted they had them to begin with, so there's no purpose in hiding them.

Why did PP collect the American girl dolls from JB room? Sure they would be worth money but after your child was murdered do you believe you would be concerned about that? I think not.

No, of course they wouldn't care about the money. They'd care about the dolls because they were memories of their murdered daughter.

There is this source for the duct tape:

Yet the thing about the duct tape is that even if it was a piece on a doll, it would still have to come from somewhere. That somewhere was never found. I also could never find anywhere else where anyone mentions the duct tape thing in relation to the dolls - only references to the post you quoted. Also, all the sources I found say the stuffing is polyester fiber, not cotton. It could of course be something changed over the years, but I haven't found anything indicating that.

There is no reason JB wouldn’t go with JAR especially if he was in a Santa suit. The room that you referenced earlier in regards to the rope and it’s location was JAR room. Yes, he could have made himself comfortable there awaiting her return. Perhaps it was his butt print found outside JB bedroom. He was also present for the party on the 23rd when the first 911 call was made. JB stating she didn’t feel pretty sitting on the spiral steps. Had she just been SA she would feel “ugly”. PR handed out scarfs to all the male‘s in attendance at this party. Maybe the scarf on the wet bar was actually his.
I suppose we should ask ourselves why Santa felt a need to add an additional ponytail to JB hair Mixed with green garland from the spiral staircase?
I am not saying this is the case but it is a possibility = JAR as suspect.

The police cleared John Andrew, and I see no reason to disbelieve that. He didn't have access to a private plane that could take him from Marietta to Boulder and back all in one night - that was his father.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I think people stretch a lot to find lies in the Ramsey statements. A lot of people who do amateur sports aren't necessarily fans of the sport, but of the socialization aspect of it. How often did Patsy play? Was she still doing it at the time of the murder? Would she think of herself as a "big fan" or a "big player"? Also, baseball bats and softball bats are different.

McDuck,
Your are correct the bats are different. Here is a photo of the bat:

See how big the bottom of the bat is? That looks more like a softball bat to me. I am a fan of baseball; so yes, I understand the difference. No stretch here.

I'm glad you mentioned it, since the placement of the bat is a great indication that the killer was an intruder. If a Ramsey did it, why place the bat outside the north door? If it was the murder weapon, placing it there would draw attention to it, rather than leaving it where it was found or removing it from the premises. And if it wasn't the murder weapon, it's an even odder placement.

I fail to see how the placement of the bat points to an intruder. I believe you veered off your original IDI theory of going out the basement window.
What strikes me as interesting is FW found the side door leading out of the pantry open. Why would this be?

They did take samples from the closet, I believe. Nothing has been announced as a match. Patsy had a mink coat, not beaver. I do wonder how exactly people imagine Patsy was dressed when she strangled her child in the cellar. A red-and-black checkered coat under another fur coat? Or red-black coat with fur lined boots combo?

Are you disregarding ST statement here? As I understand it the beaver hair was found in JB fists. So, she obviously grabbed something with beaver hair on it. I don’t mentally picture what PR wore that night. I rely on what she wore to the party the night before and chose to wear for an airplane ride the next morning (Where only family was present).

Joe Barnhill saw a young man he thought was John Andrew. Pressed by Thomas, he said he didn't really know JA enough to recognize him.

Source please.

Also, John Andrew had flown from Marietta to Minneapolis with his sister at 8:30 am, where they were supposed to meet the rest of the Ramseys.

No, the kids flew to Boulder and were met by JR outside the house.

The police confirmed that he had not been on a plane to Boulder before that, even if the numerous witnesses who saw him in Marietta on the evening of Christmas were all lying. He has been cleared completely; there is no chance he is the killer.

You mean confirmation of a commercial flight, correct? Sure he had good alibi (how convenient). There is a chance.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Why stuff extra size 12 bloomies in a doll? What would possibly be the purpose of that? If it was some staging thing and they had extra bloomies, why not just take them back to where they were? They freely admitted they had them to begin with, so there's no purpose in hiding them.

McDuck,
You mean to say they should have gone directly to JB bathroom drawer where PR said she put them? who’s To say they didn’t order any other size 12 from Bloomingdale’s?

No, of course they wouldn't care about the money. They'd care about the dolls because they were memories of their murdered daughter.

Please, give me a break. If they cared merely about the dolls then they could have waited for the packers and movers to bring them with the rest of everything in the house instead of sending PP to retrieve them.

Yet the thing about the duct tape is that even if it was a piece on a doll, it would still have to come from somewhere.

On January 19, the Boulder police department received a telephone call from one of the bookkeepers at McGuckins Hardware in Boulder. The bookkeeper said she had received two phone calls, one on January 14 and again on January 19, from a man only identifying himself as John and requesting information about receipts for purchases with his American Express card on December 2 and December 9. The caller said he would call back on January 20.The bookkeeper said that the person calling was pushy, impatient and intimidating. Boulder police met at McGuckins early on the morning of January 20 and set up a tape recording for calls to the accounting department. The bookkeeper had volunteered to assist with tape recording of this conversation. The call came in soon after the store opened, but this time the caller was cordial and patient:

"This is John. I called you last week looking for some receipts," said the caller. The bookkeeper said she had the receipts, but asked John to verify the number of the American Express account. John gave her a number that did not match the account number appearing on the receipts.

Bookkeeper: "That's not the correct number that I've got out of the system."

John: "Ok, but you were able to pull a purchase on an American Express on 12/2 for $46.31 and on 12/9 for $99.88?"

Bookkeeper: "That's correct. I was not able to pull anything for a John Ramsey.'

John: "Ok I'm looking at the invoices here from American Express and it does say 12/2 and 12/9 for those amounts on this card could be under Patsy's card too."

Bookkeeper: "That's exactly what it is, it's under Patsy's card.''

After confirming that John's and Patsy's American Express cards were under a joint account, the bookkeeper agreed that she could provide John with the information from the store if he would provide a written request. John told the bookkeeper he would provide the written request by fax machine and asked the bookkeeper to send the store receipt to him by fax.

A few minutes later John called again. "I just got your fax and I wanted to thank you for that. I also wanted to ask you if there was a itemized invoice available on those two. I got the credit card invoices but not the itemized copies." The bookkeeper apologized for the mix up and told John she would immediately fax the itemized receipts

The receipts for purchases by Patsy Ramsey in, December 1996 at McGuckins shows items priced at $1.99 the price of the missing duct tape, but unfortunately the items listed at this price were not identified on the receipt. Perhaps that is what John was trying to find out.

A report had also come in to the Boulder police that Patsy, while shopping at a local home improvement store in Athens, Georgia in November 1996 has asked a clerk for assistance in locating duct tape.

Plus you have a statement from Jahazafat that worked for Pleasant Company tells us she was instructed to tell customers to use duct tape on the back of the American girl dolls to cord the cord down.

The police cleared John Andrew, and I see no reason to disbelieve that. He didn't have access to a private plane that could take him from Marietta to Boulder and back all in one night - that was his father.

He had access to his father’s private plane with his personal pilot (Mike Archuleta) since JR couldn’t fly due to his eyesight. What about the mysterious box JR slipped to his pilot before JB was discovered? And the flight was 2 1/2 hours one way. Let’s say JB was murder around 2 a.m. There was still time to get JAR back to Atlanta and for the pilot to return to Boulder before that fated call from JR that morning or even the handoff of the box as reported by the Globe.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I fail to see how the placement of the bat points to an intruder.

Because there's no reason for a Ramsey to place it there. It does, however, mark a perfect place for an intruder to place a weapon no longer needed, since it is at the exact place where he's finally out of the house.

I believe you veered off your original IDI theory of going out the basement window.

I don't believe I've ever said he went out the window. He likely came in through the window, yes, but not out. The evidence points to the door used as an exit.

What strikes me as interesting is FW found the side door leading out of the pantry open. Why would this be?

The intruder didn't bother closing behind him. Why would he? Once he was out the only priority was getting away from the scene post haste.

Are you disregarding ST statement here?

Nothing to disregard. There's no evidence Patsy had a beaver fur coat.

As I understand it the beaver hair was found in JB fists. So, she obviously grabbed something with beaver hair on it.

Many Santa suits are trimmed with beaver fur. Would JonBenet grab at a pair of boots?

I don’t mentally picture what PR wore that night. I rely on what she wore to the party the night before and chose to wear for an airplane ride the next morning (Where only family was present).

Everything suggested as matches for the hairs and fibers represent outer wear. Coat, fur, boots, things you remove when you come home. Did Patsy put them on before going down into the cellar to strangle her daughter? If so, why?

Source please.

From Steve Thomas, "JonBenet" p71:

Another reason to interview the Barnhills, however, was that Joe had told the police he had seen JonBenet’s older half-brother, John Andrew, in Boulder on the evening of December 25. John Andrew claimed to have been in Atlanta at the time. During the interview Barnhill sheepishly told us he had made a mistake and apologized, saying that he probably would not even recognize the young man in a crowd. That went a long way toward firming up John Andrew’s alibi.

No, the kids flew to Boulder and were met by JR outside the house.

Yes, later in the day, arriving at ca 13:30 once they found out what was happening in Boulder. But the original plan was to fly from Marietta to Minneapolis and meet up with the family there at ca 10:30 to continue to Charlevoix. Chapter 4 of Schillers PMPT has the details. Chapter 14 of the same book relays the final clearing of John Andrew:

Bryan Morgan wrote to Detective Thomas on March 4 stating that John Andrew had made an ATM transaction at the QT Store on Roswell Road, in Marietta, Geothia, at 9:00 P.M. on December 25. His friend Brad Millard had been present. To support his claim, Morgan enclosed the ATM transaction slip. He also repeated that Melinda had awakened her brother in the early morning hours of December 26, in time for him to stop at a store and still make an 8:30 A.M. flight to Minneapolis. It was impossible for John Andrew to have flown from Atlanta to Boulder, whether by commercial or private aircraft, commit the murder, and return in time to be awakened by his sister in the presence of Brad Millard, who had stayed overnight in John Andrew's room.

You mean confirmation of a commercial flight, correct? Sure he had good alibi (how convenient). There is a chance.

No, they checked both commercial and private flights. A plane isn't a car, it can't make four trips across the country (as the private plane would have to do, from Boulder to Atlanta to pick up JA, back to Boulder, drop off JA, then pick him up again and fly back to Atlanta, followed by another trip to Boulder where it was on the 26th) without being noticed. Most major airports require flight plans even from private planes, and there'd be evidence of when and where the plane took off and landed, that even the BPD couldn't miss.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

McDuck,
You mean to say they should have gone directly to JB bathroom drawer where PR said she put them? who’s To say they didn’t order any other size 12 from Bloomingdale’s?

Why would it matter? I really don't understand, what is the point of shuffling a bunch of unused panties around the house, stuffing them into dolls to hide them and then spiriting them away? The only panties that matter are the ones on JonBenet. What kind of evidentiary value would the other, unused ones have that the pair found on JonBenet didn't? The Ramseys had no problem telling the police that they had bought the underwear, so it was no secret that they existed. So why hide them? And what would be the purpose of ordering more and not saying anything about it?

Please, give me a break. If they cared merely about the dolls then they could have waited for the packers and movers to bring them with the rest of everything in the house instead of sending PP to retrieve them.

It helps to think of them as human.

Let's take a hypothetical family, the Yesmars. Their daughter was murdered and left in their basement, and the griefstricken family moved out of the house, never to return. A few weeks later, they ask a relative to pick up some things from the house for them, including their dead daughter's beloved dolls.

Does this sound suspicious? Or like the perfectly understandable actions of a grieving family?

On January 19, the Boulder police department received a telephone call from one of the bookkeepers at McGuckins Hardware in Boulder. The bookkeeper said she had received two phone calls, one on January 14 and again on January 19, from a man only identifying himself as John and requesting information about receipts for purchases with his American Express card on December 2 and December 9. The caller said he would call back on January 20.The bookkeeper said that the person calling was pushy, impatient and intimidating. Boulder police met at McGuckins early on the morning of January 20 and set up a tape recording for calls to the accounting department. The bookkeeper had volunteered to assist with tape recording of this conversation. The call came in soon after the store opened, but this time the caller was cordial and patient:

"This is John. I called you last week looking for some receipts," said the caller. The bookkeeper said she had the receipts, but asked John to verify the number of the American Express account. John gave her a number that did not match the account number appearing on the receipts.

Bookkeeper: "That's not the correct number that I've got out of the system."

John: "Ok, but you were able to pull a purchase on an American Express on 12/2 for $46.31 and on 12/9 for $99.88?"

Bookkeeper: "That's correct. I was not able to pull anything for a John Ramsey.'

John: "Ok I'm looking at the invoices here from American Express and it does say 12/2 and 12/9 for those amounts on this card could be under Patsy's card too."

Bookkeeper: "That's exactly what it is, it's under Patsy's card.''

After confirming that John's and Patsy's American Express cards were under a joint account, the bookkeeper agreed that she could provide John with the information from the store if he would provide a written request. John told the bookkeeper he would provide the written request by fax machine and asked the bookkeeper to send the store receipt to him by fax.

A few minutes later John called again. "I just got your fax and I wanted to thank you for that. I also wanted to ask you if there was a itemized invoice available on those two. I got the credit card invoices but not the itemized copies." The bookkeeper apologized for the mix up and told John she would immediately fax the itemized receipts

The receipts for purchases by Patsy Ramsey in, December 1996 at McGuckins shows items priced at $1.99 the price of the missing duct tape, but unfortunately the items listed at this price were not identified on the receipt. Perhaps that is what John was trying to find out.

Except it wasn't John trying to find out anything. The caller was James Rapp of Touch Tone, a sleazy firm that tracked down deadbeat debtors, impersonating people to retrieve information. They had "obtained" a bunch of financial records from the Ramseys and many others in the case, and Rapp had called McGuckin, impersonating John Ramsey. Touch Tone had been hired by a PI from California, who in turn was in the employ of a tabloid TV show. All this info is from chapters 9 and 20 in Schiller's PMPT. Rapp ended up serving 100 days in prison.

1.99 is not exactly an unusual figure for items sold at stores. It's a great leap to assume it was duct tape. But even if it was we'd have to assume that either Patsy was planning the murder a month in advance, or she had planned to use duct tape for other things. And all traces of duct tape found in the house (like on paintings) failed to match the tape found on JonBenet. Honestly, reading Thomas just makes you frustrated at his almost grotesque tunnel vision. He says that they traced the tape to the manufacturer, that it was made in late November, that only a small amount was produced and sold only at a few stores in CO, including McGuckin. But Thomas was so dead set on proving Patsy was the one who bought it that he didn't bother finding out who else did! The store had taped over the CCTV footage after 30 days, meaning Patsy's visits were unavailable, but they should have gone through all the available tapes to see if anyone was buying that tape, and possibly that cord as well. Early Dec is already a tight time schedule for the tape to make it from factory to stores, so it's more likely that the tape was purchased closer to Christmas. Since the tape was rare to begin with it was a golden opportunity, squandered.

Plus you have a statement from Jahazafat that worked for Pleasant Company tells us she was instructed to tell customers to use duct tape on the back of the American girl dolls to cord the cord down.

If the internet has taught me one thing it's that in regard to things like American Girl dolls, people will publish every single piece of trivia about it online, important or not. I've searched, and found absolutely nothing about duct tape on strings. If this was a common instruction, I would really expect someone online to reminisce about it. Instead, anonymous Jahazafat is the only source of this tidbit. That makes me suspicious.

He had access to his father’s private plane with his personal pilot (Mike Archuleta) since JR couldn’t fly due to his eyesight. What about the mysterious box JR slipped to his pilot before JB was discovered? And the flight was 2 1/2 hours one way. Let’s say JB was murder around 2 a.m. There was still time to get JAR back to Atlanta and for the pilot to return to Boulder before that fated call from JR that morning or even the handoff of the box as reported by the Globe.

He didn't have access to his father's private plane, since it was halfway across the country. Again, the pilot would have to fly four cross-country trips in one night to leave Boulder, pick up John Andrew in Atlanta, return to Boulder, let John Andrew murder his sister, fly him back to Atlanta and return to Boulder.

The "mystery box" was an invention of the tabloids. Hack "journalist" for the Globe Jeffrey Scott Shapiro (same guy who wrote the Washington Times article referenced in this forum last week) even admits so:

"Days after the Enquirer's 911 scoop, Shapiro's editor had a big lead for him. Late in the night, on August 22, 1998, Shapiro says, one of his editors, Joe Mullens, called him at home to tell him that Mullens had found a source with the perfect juicy nugget. The lead, Shapiro recalls, was that John Ramsey had handed his pilot, Michael Archuleta, a box potentially filled with evidence, such as the cord used to strangle JonBenét and the tape found covering her mouth. (Mullens referred questions on this topic to the Globe's press representative. So did Tony Frost, the paper's editor. The press representative declined to comment.) "

"Mullens assigned Shapiro to look into the tip anyway, and Shapiro went to stake out Archuleta's house. After waiting for hours, Shapiro called Mullens to inform him that nothing was happening. "

"Just wait. The police are on their way over to Archuleta's, Shapiro says Mullens told him."

"How do you know? Shapiro says he asked."

"Because we called the police and told them, so we know they'll be heading over there, Mullens replied, according to Shapiro. Shapiro kept at his post."

"From the beginning, the story was never based on legitimate sources, according to Shapiro: "They initiated the whole thing…fed it to the police, got the police to react on it so they could write the story."

 

[Rain on my Parade]

My mistake.Because there's no reason for a Ramsey to place it there. It does, however, mark a perfect place for an intruder to place a weapon no longer needed, since it is at the exact place where he's finally out of the house.

McDuck,
There would be a reason as the kid’s didn’t play on that side of the house according to PR. Pointing to an IDI for their case.

I don't believe I've ever said he went out the window. He likely came in through the window, yes, but not out. The evidence points to the door used as an exit.

My mistake.

The intruder didn't bother closing behind him. Why would he? Once he was out the only priority was getting away from the scene post haste.

Why didn’t he bother to take his ransom with him?

Nothing to disregard. There's no evidence Patsy had a beaver fur coat.

No, because they failed to collect any furs.

Many Santa suits are trimmed with beaver fur. Would JonBenet grab at a pair of boots?

Beavers are brown not white. It’s likely she grabbed someone’s boots. The beaver hair was found also found on the duct tape.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Everything suggested as matches for the hairs and fibers represent outer wear. Coat, fur, boots, things you remove when you come home. Did Patsy put them on before going down into the cellar to strangle her daughter? If so, why?

McDuck,
Why did PR have on the same cloths the next day as the night before. Maybe she never changed out of them.

As for Joe Barnhill he did originally state he say JAR Christmas Day and then later recanted his statement. Just as Melody Stanton didn’t hear, then reported she did hear a child scream.

Yes, later in the day, arriving at ca 13:30 once they found out what was happening in Boulder. But the original plan was to fly from Marietta to Minneapolis and meet up with the family there at ca 10:30 to continue to Charlevoix. Chapter 4 of Schillers PMPT has the details. Chapter 14 of the same book relays the final clearing of John Andrew:

No, they checked both commercial and private flights. A plane isn't a car, it can't make four trips across the country (as the private plane would have to do, from Boulder to Atlanta to pick up JA, back to Boulder, drop off JA, then pick him up again and fly back to Atlanta, followed by another trip to Boulder where it was on the 26th) without being noticed. Most major airports require flight plans even from private planes, and there'd be evidence of when and where the plane took off and landed, that even the BPD couldn't miss.

Yes, this was the original flight plan. I don’t agree with JAR final clearing as truth, moo. Of coarse he had an alibi. But the cops missed the box in JR hanger. If this is the case, then why not JAR?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Why would it matter? I really don't understand, what is the point of shuffling a bunch of unused panties around the house, stuffing them into dolls to hide them and then spiriting them away? The only panties that matter are the ones on JonBenet. What kind of evidentiary value would the other, unused ones have that the pair found on JonBenet didn't? The Ramseys had no problem telling the police that they had bought the underwear, so it was no secret that they existed. So why hide them? And what would be the purpose of ordering more and not saying anything about it?

MCDuck,
Because the remaining pairs were never located in the home by CSI or BPD.

It helps to think of them as human.

Let's take a hypothetical family, the Yesmars. Their daughter was murdered and left in their basement, and the griefstricken family moved out of the house, never to return. A few weeks later, they ask a relative to pick up some things from the house for them, including their dead daughter's beloved dolls.

Does this sound suspicious? Or like the perfectly understandable actions of a grieving family?

PP removed items from 755 15th St. on the 28th not weeks later. Yes, removing dolls for items needed for a funeral only is suspicious.

Except it wasn't John trying to find out anything. The caller was James Rapp of Touch Tone, a sleazy firm that tracked down deadbeat debtors, impersonating people to retrieve information. They had "obtained" a bunch of financial records from the Ramseys and many others in the case, and Rapp had called McGuckin, impersonating John Ramsey. Touch Tone had been hired by a PI from California, who in turn was in the employ of a tabloid TV show. All this info is from chapters 9 and 20 in Schiller's PMPT. Rapp ended up serving 100 days in prison.

1.99 is not exactly an unusual figure for items sold at stores. It's a great leap to assume it was duct tape. But even if it was we'd have to assume that either Patsy was planning the murder a month in advance, or she had planned to use duct tape for other things. And all traces of duct tape found in the house (like on paintings) failed to match the tape found on JonBenet. Honestly, reading Thomas just makes you frustrated at his almost grotesque tunnel vision. He says that they traced the tape to the manufacturer, that it was made in late November, that only a small amount was produced and sold only at a few stores in CO, including McGuckin. But Thomas was so dead set on proving Patsy was the one who bought it that he didn't bother finding out who else did! The store had taped over the CCTV footage after 30 days, meaning Patsy's visits were unavailable, but they should have gone through all the available tapes to see if anyone was buying that tape, and possibly that cord as well. Early Dec is already a tight time schedule for the tape to make it from factory to stores, so it's more likely that the tape was purchased closer to Christmas. Since the tape was rare to begin with it was a golden opportunity, squandered.

The tape on JB did not match any duct tape in the house. Is it possible that PR put it in her purse upon walking out the door or JR box he had handed off to his pilot before JB body was discovered?

If the internet has taught me one thing it's that in regard to things like American Girl dolls, people will publish every single piece of trivia about it online, important or not. I've searched, and found absolutely nothing about duct tape on strings. If this was a common instruction, I would really expect someone online to reminisce about it. Instead, anonymous Jahazafat is the only source of this tidbit. That makes me suspicious.

You can be suspicious all you want but this info. Has been there since the beginning Of this case. PR was said to have purchased string and duct tape from the hardware store.

He didn't have access to his father's private plane, since it was halfway across the country. Again, the pilot would have to fly four cross-country trips in one night to leave Boulder, pick up John Andrew in Atlanta, return to Boulder, let John Andrew murder his sister, fly him back to Atlanta and return to Boulder.

Not if JAR was in Boulder and flying to Atlanta. JR plane was just visited by JR Christmas Day it wasn’t halfway across the country until perhaps early morning hours of the 26th. It was a 2 1/2 hr. Flight one way. If Melody heard the scream around 2 a.m. you do the math. Which would make one wonder why none of the R’s heard a pin drop that night.

The "mystery box" was an invention of the tabloids. Hack "journalist" for the Globe Jeffrey Scott Shapiro (same guy who wrote the Washington Times article referenced in this forum last week) even admits so:

Sure thing, so he states. You believe that the pilot would admit to receiving a box from JR? I found this (sounds like Tricia) although I could be very wrong.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

McDuck,
There would be a reason as the kid’s didn’t play on that side of the house according to PR. Pointing to an IDI for their case.

Sure, but until I see evidence of the Ramsey's involvement, I'm going with Occam's razor.

Why didn’t he bother to take his ransom with him?

The money? Why would he? If he ever had intended to collect a ransom (and I don't think he did) he would wait until they found the note, call them and have them dump the money somewhere. Obviously he didn't do that, because he had already achieved his prime objective - the murder of JonBenet.

No, because they failed to collect any furs.

Patsy walked out of the house with one fur. The police could certainly check the rest, as well as check the closets for fur residues. It's telling that nothing was found.

Beavers are brown not white. It’s likely she grabbed someone’s boots. The beaver hair was found also found on the duct tape.

Color can depend on the suit. Certainly dyes exist.

McDuck,
Why did PR have on the same cloths the next day as the night before. Maybe she never changed out of them.

They were about to go on a several hours long flight with only the family on their plane. Plenty of people prefer not to change into what they are supposed to wear the rest of the day until they arrive at their destination.

Yes, this was the original flight plan. I don’t agree with JAR final clearing as truth, moo. Of coarse he had an alibi. But the cops missed the box in JR hanger. If this is the case, then why not JAR?

There was no box.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

MCDuck,
Because the remaining pairs were never located in the home by CSI or BPD.

Yeah, but that was not the question. The question is, why would they do it? What was there possibly to be gained by it?

PP removed items from 755 15th St. on the 28th not weeks later. Yes, removing dolls for items needed for a funeral only is suspicious.

Well, like I said, it helps to think of them as human. Their daughter had been murdered, and they wanted some of her beloved toys. I don't see how the number of days passed have any relevance here. A relative was going to the house to get things for them. Try as I might I can't fathom why this would be suspicious.

The tape on JB did not match any duct tape in the house. Is it possible that PR put it in her purse upon walking out the door or JR box he had handed off to his pilot before JB body was discovered?

There was no box.

You can be suspicious all you want but this info. Has been there since the beginning Of this case. PR was said to have purchased string and duct tape from the hardware store.

Was said by whom? Source?

Not if JAR was in Boulder and flying to Atlanta. JR plane was just visited by JR Christmas Day it wasn’t halfway across the country until perhaps early morning hours of the 26th. It was a 2 1/2 hr. Flight one way. If Melody heard the scream around 2 a.m. you do the math. Which would make one wonder why none of the R’s heard a pin drop that night.

But he wasn't in Boulder. He was in Atlanta, as attested by multiple witnesses.

Sure thing, so he states. You believe that the pilot would admit to receiving a box from JR? I found this (sounds like Tricia) although I could be very wrong.

That video just says what I've been saying. There was no box, just an underhanded attempt by a tabloid to sell more newspapers.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Was said by whom? Source?

MCDuck,
The following quotes are from Steve Thomas' book:

page 233:

Detective Tom Trujillo, who was steadily falling further behind in getting
the evidence tested, fumbled a major opportunity concerning the
cord used in the murder. He was adamant that the cord was polypropylene,
citing the findings of a lab analyst. Another opportunity would
soon be lost.

Following a tip six months earlier, I had found what seemed to be
identical cord, packaged as "nylon," in both the Boulder Army Store
and McGuckin's Hardware, and collected more than fifty samples.
Everyone agreed that it seemed a visual match for the neck ligature, but

234
Trujillo insisted that the ligatures in the Ramsey case were not nylon
and that we needed to find a polypropylene rope. I told him to have it
tested anyway.

In the middle of November, John Van Tassell of the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police, one of the world's foremost experts on knots and
cords, reviewed the neck ligature, the length of white cord that had
been twisted around the broken paintbrush handle to create a terrible
killing tool. Van Tassell commented that it was "a soft nylon cord."
Sergeant Wickman and I immediately caught the term.

We asked if he was certain, and the Mountie studied it some more.
Sure looks like soft nylon, he said, as he examined what looked like a
soft flat white shoelace. Not stiff and rigid like polypropylene.

I retrieved one sample package, a fifty-foot length of white Stansport
32-strand, 3/16-inch woven cord that I had bought. Van Tassell pulled
the cord out, frayed an end, held it against the end of the neck ligature,
and said, "Look." The soft white braid and inner weave appeared identical.
"I think this is the same cord," he said.

If a hole had appeared in the earth, Trujillo would have let it swallow
him. He had not submitted any of my evidence for comparison. Beckner
ordered him to get it to the lab immediately.

My file for May 21, 1997, detailed my purchase of white nylon cord
from the sporting goods section of McGuckin's, some of which was
identical in brand and model to the cord I bought at the army store.
The price was $2.29. On December 2, 1996, Patsy Ramsey purchased
an item from the McGuckin's sporting goods section. The price was
$2.29.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, it was so frustrating. Because
Trujillo had not submitted the evidence for testing and remained firm
that we had the wrong type of cord, I had held back from searching the
army surplus store records. Now so much time had elapsed, the records
were unavailable. I had seldom felt such a level of defeat since the
investigation began.

An Atlanta-area hardware store clerk told investigators that she had helped Patsy Ramsey find duct tape in the store sometime in December 1996, according to a book on the case, "Perfect Murder, Perfect town.

The Bonita papers: The receipts for purchases by Patsy Ramsey in, December 1996 at McGuckins shows items priced at $1.99 the price of the missing duct tape, but unfortunately the items listed at this price were not identified on the receipt.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

James Kolar- Foreign Faction pg. 449

Here ya go!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[FergusMcDuck]

MCDuck,
The following quotes are from Steve Thomas' book:

page 233:


The Bonita papers: The receipts for purchases by Patsy Ramsey in, December 1996 at McGuckins shows items priced at $1.99 the price of the missing duct tape, but unfortunately the items listed at this price were not identified on the receipt.

Ah, when you said "PR was said to have purchased string and duct tape from the hardware store." I thought it was something more solid than Thomas' guesswork.