Lisa Irwin Disappearance - Thoughts and Theories ONLY!

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  • #961
Just a thought regarding the non mention of pj's.

What if something happened to Lisa when she was having her afternoon nap? She wouldn't be in pj's. If that's the case, then both mom and dad are in on it. Dad goes to work and mom stages the kidnapping. Has the dad's truck been checked for evidence?

I'm still on the fence but leaning more towards parental involvement than an abduction.

That's a good theory ~n/t~. I keep relying on the timeline according to the parent's statements. :waitasec: It's definitely worth considering that just maybe baby Lisa was 'taken' much earlier in the day.


imo
 
  • #962
I have a question. For all the posters here who have opined that perhaps Lisa was kidnapped for a person who simply wants a child, when has that ever happened? I mean within the last 20 years or so. The statistics that have been thrown around on these pages say that out of the 200+ babies kidnapped, only 12 are unaccounted for. And I suspect they are probably dead.

I guess I just don't see how the logistics of stealing a baby to have for your own wold work. You can't really do anything with the child in the future without a birth certificate. Can't get a SS#. I just don't see how this theory would play out. I know we have seen quite a few crazed women trying to steal an infant directly from the womb and pass it off as their own, but a 10 month old?

I am sorry to say it, but the statistics overwhelmingly are in favor of someone in the family being the perpetrator of this crime. I really don't think she was stolen for the black market. I think the whole black market baby thing is mostly pulp fiction fantasy. In this country, anyway. But if someone could provide proof of a robust baby black market in the US, I would certainly be open to change my mind.

There are a few cases where people have taken babies and young kids to pass off as their own, one was resolved here just a few months ago, I don't recall the woman's name although I should, but she was stolen IIRC from a hospital, right out from under her mothers nose when she was very young, and was reunited with her family after quite sometime, and her identity confirmed as the missing child, who is now a woman. (Found it, her name was Carlina White, and she was taken in 1987, and raised by the kidnapper until this year.) Steven Stayner and the other boy that was kidnapped by his kidnapper, Marcus and Jeremiah Treanor, kidnapped by a child prostitution ring (Albeit in another country, not the US). One of the Treanor boys was recovered safe after 3 1/2 years, the other was murdered shortly before his brother's rescue. Anthonette Cayedito, who was kidnapped in the 80's and may still be alive today, due to the fact that there is still the occasional sighting, always with the same man and woman. Tara Calico's case is much the same in terms of the possibility of her still being alive. Fusako Sano, 9 years tied up on a bathroom floor, but recovered live from the severely mentally ill man that kidnapped her off the street (also a foriegn case). While not all of these kids were taken for the purpose of being raised in a happy loving home, and in fact, some of them were taken for sexual purposes, there is a common theme that all of them came home alive or they are still strongly suspected of being alive, and most were passed off as the abductor's child at one point or another.
And Sabrina Aisenberg, whose case was almost the same as Lisa's, but in that one most people do suspect her parents.

ETA: And of course, Jaycee Dugard, 18 years and passed off as her abductor's child.
Shawn Hornbeck.
The list could literally go on for quite some time.

Most cases, yeah the parents are to blame and the kid was dead before 911 was ever called, but not every case is the same. The ones above are exceptions to the rule and maybe Lisa's is too.
 
  • #963
I do not believe the parents are involved in this at all. 1 of 2 things happened. #1 Baby Lisa was taken for illegal adoption or #2 Someone took her for themselves. I think these parents pain is real. I truely belive the answers & the perp will be found in the phone logs of the 3 missing cell phones!!! The police need to go thru each number (if they haven't already) & they will find the kidnapper. I think the mom or dad may have had an encounter with someone that they don't even realize may be significant. Some innocent situation, like had they sold anything recently? ex: baby basinet, cradle, baby carrier, etc. or thru a membership for babies/new mommies, etc. Somebody came in contact with the parents & knew they had a little baby. The kidnapper would be a total loner, would have possible recently moved & changed phone # (that would be a red flag). This is the only logical reason the 3 cell phones would be taken. (clearly the perp forgot about phone logs) I have faith they will find baby Lisa alive & well if they look outside these grief stricken parents. Not every missing child is a Casey Anthony case. The police need to work with them not just look at them. PRAYERS PRAYERS PRAYERS

Totally agree with you helpthevictims! Either of your two points that I bolded. yes, PRAYERS!
 
  • #964
I do not believe the parents are involved in this at all. 1 of 2 things happened. #1 Baby Lisa was taken for illegal adoption or #2 Someone took her for themselves. I think these parents pain is real. I truely belive the answers & the perp will be found in the phone logs of the 3 missing cell phones!!! The police need to go thru each number (if they haven't already) & they will find the kidnapper. I think the mom or dad may have had an encounter with someone that they don't even realize may be significant. Some innocent situation, like had they sold anything recently? ex: baby basinet, cradle, baby carrier, etc. or thru a membership for babies/new mommies, etc. Somebody came in contact with the parents & knew they had a little baby. The kidnapper would be a total loner, would have possible recently moved & changed phone # (that would be a red flag). This is the only logical reason the 3 cell phones would be taken. (clearly the perp forgot about phone logs) I have faith they will find baby Lisa alive & well if they look outside these grief stricken parents. Not every missing child is a Casey Anthony case. The police need to work with them not just look at them. PRAYERS PRAYERS PRAYERS
welcome,:seeya:

Statistics show that children who are taken or killed are GENERALLY done so by a parent or guardian....not a stranger.

imo
imo
 
  • #965
He was much older than Lisa though. Pedophiles don't usually target children as young as Lisa.

Absolutely. I was speaking only to the account of a child being taken and kept, and that it does happen. Not all taken children are either returned or murdered within a week.
 
  • #966
If you are talking about Shawn Hornbeck? He was not enrolled in school. But he did live with a guy who kidnapped him for years and didn't try to run away.
Until that guy kidnapped another child and that lead to the recovery of Shawn.

Yes, thank you. My apologies for misunderstanding his school enrollment status. I will make a a correction in that post.
 
  • #967
Unless there is dialog or conversation on the phone logs I wonder if they have considered the fact that the call could have been a pocket dial. My friend has an Iphone and it calls me all the time. I don't know what kind of cell phones they had, but I know with many of them this is a common occurrence. No information has been released as to who was called, or texted so this is just a thought I had. May have been posted before. jmo

so the 2:30am call is still a rumor, or have police acknowledged there WAS a call??? :waitasec:

TIA!
 
  • #968
Absolutely. I was speaking only to the account of a child being taken and kept, and that it does happen. Not all taken children are either returned or murdered within a week.

Yes, it does happen. Jaycee Dugard was kidnapped and kept for 18 years. But again, pedophiles don't usually go for a child as young as Lisa, so I don't know if that scenario would apply here.
 
  • #969
He was much older than Lisa though. Pedophiles don't usually target children as young as Lisa.

Right. Too old statistically for women seeking a child to replace a lost pregnancy and too young statistically for most sexual offenders. Add to that all the other statistics we know too well...:(

I don't know if Mom and/or Dad did this any better than anyone else...but I will be utterly gobsmacked if it turns out to be a complete, random stranger that kidnapped Lisa. This crime, imo, is very, very close to home. Their home.

JMHO
 
  • #970
Sorry for what might come up as a double post, but I did want to say that I don't believe Lisa's body was burned in that dumpster. There have been other cases where both young kids and adults have been burned, either in containers or in the open air and there was always evidence left behind, usually bone, because it is hard to get a fire hot enough to incinerate bone, especially in a dumpster. There would be some part of Lisa left if her body were burned. There might have been evidence that was burned in the dumpster, but I don't believe that the evidence was Lisa's body.

Right. If Lisa's little body was burned in the dumpster, firefighters and LE would have smelled a particular odor that they readily detect.
(I have a fireman in the family and sadly we've discussed this before.)

imo
 
  • #971
He was much older than Lisa though. Pedophiles don't usually target children as young as Lisa.

It has happened before, though. This case often reminds me of Denise Gravely, a 2 yr old girl who was kidnapped in broad daylight from her own front yard in Cleveland, OH, when her mom sent her out to call her sister in for dinner. The police and FBI searched everywhere, it nearly destroyed the Gravely family.

Denise was found 19 months later when a friend of her family visited another friend in Buffalo, NY and recognized Denise as the child his friend's mother said she had recently adopted. Turns out the woman told her son she wanted a young girl to keep her company, so he went to visit his friend, saw Denise and came back later with a buddy to kidnap her.

People do crazy things.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20082003,00.html
 
  • #972
I totally agree with this post. And because of all the oddities that already exist I believe every possibility should be thoroughly investigated. I am thinking that what did happen will be totally beyond what anyone of us has imagined. I just can't get beyond thinking if the baby was dead, they would have found her. I think someone has taken her far away and not for neferious reasons. I want to believe it is because they wanted a baby. That is the only hope I can hold on to.

It doesn't seem that there is anything in either of the parents past that would indicate they would harm this child. And I can't imagine they would just hurt her and throw the body away. I can't and won't believe this until and if it does turn out that way. JMO

Me too - re bold. :seeya: :fence:
 
  • #973
I have a question. For all the posters here who have opined that perhaps Lisa was kidnapped for a person who simply wants a child, when has that ever happened? I mean within the last 20 years or so. The statistics that have been thrown around on these pages say that out of the 200+ babies kidnapped, only 12 are unaccounted for. And I suspect they are probably dead.

I guess I just don't see how the logistics of stealing a baby to have for your own wold work. You can't really do anything with the child in the future without a birth certificate. Can't get a SS#. I just don't see how this theory would play out. I know we have seen quite a few crazed women trying to steal an infant directly from the womb and pass it off as their own, but a 10 month old?

I am sorry to say it, but the statistics overwhelmingly are in favor of someone in the family being the perpetrator of this crime. I really don't think she was stolen for the black market. I think the whole black market baby thing is mostly pulp fiction fantasy. In this country, anyway. But if someone could provide proof of a robust baby black market in the US, I would certainly be open to change my mind.

Google kidnapped baby found alive without quotations. Lots of stories to peruse.
 
  • #974
Right. If Lisa's little body was burned in the dumpster, firefighters and LE would have smelled a particular odor that they readily detect.
(I have a fireman in the family and sadly we've discussed this before.)

imo

If I were going to connect the dumpster fire to Lisa's disappearance (and I think I do), I would assume evidence was what was being burned in the dumpster (clothing, cell phones, etc.). No fire in a dumpster would have burned a body.

JMO
 
  • #975
BBM: Interesting... and if no one comes forward for that amount of money, then LE can take it as another hint that the parent or parents are involved...

Exactly what my husband said. He said that amount of money will make people think furiously about what they saw out of the ordinary that night. Money, jobs, the economy is horrible and LE will likely get hundreds of calls. That's a lot of moola to turn down. Dh say's the money could break the case, in his opinion.

imo
 
  • #976
Snipped (Link below):

Two characteristics that particularly distinguish the homicides of young children from those of other juvenile victims are that homicides of young children are committed primarily by family members
(71 percent) and by the common (68 percent) use of “personal weapons”
(i.e., hands and feet) to batter, strangle, or suffocate victims.

Also, young girls and young boys are victims of homicide in about equal proportions (46 percent and 54 percent, respectively), and although
male perpetrators somewhat outnumber female perpetrators (58 percent and 42 percent, respectively) in homicides of young children, females are involved in these homicides more often than in homicides of victims of any other age

Young children at the highest risk of homicide are those under age 1.

Source: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/187239.pdf
 
  • #977
If I were going to connect the dumpster fire to Lisa's disappearance (and I think I do), I would assume evidence was what was being burned in the dumpster (clothing, cell phones, etc.). No fire in a dumpster would have burned a body.

JMO

I was responding to this post:
Originally Posted by not_my_kids
Sorry for what might come up as a double post, but I did want to say that I don't believe Lisa's body was burned in that dumpster. There have been other cases where both young kids and adults have been burned, either in containers or in the open air and there was always evidence left behind, usually bone, because it is hard to get a fire hot enough to incinerate bone, especially in a dumpster. There would be some part of Lisa left if her body were burned. There might have been evidence that was burned in the dumpster, but I don't believe that the evidence was Lisa's body.
 
  • #978
good question!! LOL! how about...
this 'intruder' might have first seen DB & kids at a grocery store, decided this was the perfect baby and has been following DB and casing out the house. Sees JI leave for work, and does the deed... :seeya:

Following that theory, it would also be interesting to know if anyone has come to the house lately, perhaps pretending to be a salesperson of some kind, just to get an idea of what the layout may be, how many people live there, etc.

MOO
 
  • #979
To me, the wine speaks volumes........

Being an avid wino and the mother of three small children I'll give you my thougts. First, I love wine, but I don't drink it if my husband is not home. I abstain because once I start I want a buzz.....:) I don't drink when he's gone for two major reasons: 1. If something happens to the kids, I can't drive because I'd have been drinking, thus would need to call an ambulance and look like an idiot, not be able to go the hospital, and VERY likely get slapped with child endangerment, etc.wind up with child protective services, wind up on Nancy Grace, the whole nine yards.... And my husband would likely divorce me.....2. If, god forbid, something bad happened (like a death) ON AN ACCIDENT, i.e. falling down the stairs, OD on meds, drown in toilet.. then, my being drunk changes the ballgame COMPLETELY and an "accident" can turn from no charges pressed to upwards of 20 years in the slammer.... I'm still on the fence but If I was a betting woman, it was some sort of an accident and she panicked....
 
  • #980
Exactly what my husband said. He said that amount of money will make people think furiously about what they saw out of the ordinary that night. Money, jobs, the economy is horrible and LE will likely get hundreds of calls. That's a lot of moola to turn down. Dh say's the money could break the case, in his opinion.

imo

I agree in this case. In the Spierer case? Hmmm.... But here, I really hope the money makes someone talk. Plus, bonus of doing the right thing as a human!
 
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