Lisa Irwin Disappearance - Thoughts and Theories ONLY!

[Abby Normal]

To me, the wine speaks volumes........

Being an avid wino and the mother of three small children I'll give you my thougts. First, I love wine, but I don't drink it if my husband is not home. I abstain because once I start I want a buzz..... I don't drink when he's gone for two major reasons: 1. If something happens to the kids, I can't drive because I'd have been drinking, thus would need to call an ambulance and look like an idiot, not be able to go the hospital, and VERY likely get slapped with child endangerment, etc.wind up with child protective services, wind up on Nancy Grace, the whole nine yards.... And my husband would likely divorce me.....2. If, god forbid, something bad happened (like a death) ON AN ACCIDENT, i.e. falling down the stairs, OD on meds, drown in toilet.. then, my being drunk changes the ballgame COMPLETELY and an "accident" can turn from no charges pressed to upwards of 20 years in the slammer.... I'm still on the fence but If I was a betting woman, it was some sort of an accident and she panicked....

Yeah, but that's you. If I couldn't have a glass of wine when my husband wasn't home, that would be about 40% of the time. I know I have plenty of neighbors and friends who would help me if it weren't a 911 situation, and I know I can call a taxi. If it is a 911 situation, than an ambulance is completely reasonable.

Also, if she was a single mom for any period of time between partners, she would be more desensitized to how things are different when her partner wasn't home. I wasn't a single mom, but I did live on my own some time before getting married- across the country from family. I'm also partnered to someone who travels internationally for work. Husband being away is really NBD once you are accustomed to it, and it's life as usual.

Who knows where DB fell in the spectrum and why.

 

[marge_rita]

I agree in this case. In the Spierer case? Hmmm.... But here, I really hope the money makes someone talk. Plus, bonus of doing the right thing as a human!

I hope jacy that today LE is bombarded with phone calls. I think the money being announced on Friday-with the weekend approaching-will possibly get someone talking.

I pray baby Lisa is brought home smiling and well.

I keep thinking about a loved one of mine who is near that age.I know they'd scream to high heavens without their mommy, their blankie, etc. All of that makes this case highly emotional for me.

imo

 

[Niner]

So, no, I don't put a lot of stock in that first 911 call in any case, unless the person making the call is able to laugh and joke coherently, or seems to be completely calm, then I might question it a little.

respectfully snipped...

have they released the 911 call?? TIA!

 

[Wise Old Owl]

respectfully snipped...

have they released the 911 call?? TIA!

No, and the legal counsel for the police department has issued a statement saying they are not going to release it.

The end. :banghead:

 

[lonetraveler]

I found this article to be very interesting regarding infants abducted.

http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_news/2011/01/21/5891441-who-are-the-baby-snatchers

Infant Abductions in America

Of the 271 reported cases of infant kidnapping in the past 27 years, 47 percent of these occurred from hospitals, with almost 60 percent of these babies taken from their mother's hospital room. Of the remaining infant kidnappings, 108 were taken once the baby came home, while the remaining 35 occurred in various other places and locations. While the number of infants kidnapped from hospitals has declined appreciably since 1983, this due to advances in hospital security and other new procedures enacted to prevent such child thefts, the number of infants kidnapped from their own homes and other public places has, unfortunately, increased.

There has also been an increase in the number of injuries to the parents of the kidnapped infants, to include, in some rare but significant instances, forced caesarians. In these cases a pregnant woman is kidnapped and her unborn is cut from her womb, in one terrible case with the kidnapper using a car key to cut the fetus out of the mother. Such kidnappings usually revolve around the kidnapper’s desire to sustain a relationship with a significant other or to fulfill a child bearing desire or fantasy. In such crimes there is usually evidence of planning and preparation on the part of the offender, someone willing to kill to fulfill their narcissistic needs. And while these and other related statistics are shocking, we know that about 95 percent of infants kidnapped under these discussed circumstances are ultimately rescued.

This article is older but still interesting.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2653242...h/t/worst-nightmare-babies-stolen-their-beds/

 

[marge_rita]

respectfully snipped...

have they released the 911 call?? TIA!

No and we need to hear it ! :innocent:

just read the above post from Wise Old Owl.

 

[natsound]

He was much older than Lisa though. Pedophiles don't usually target children as young as Lisa.

Speaking of pedophiles and infants, I have to tell you how bizarre the possibilituies may be. We had a case here several years ago where a baby died and the GRANDMOTHER was charged with murder/sexual battery. Apparently she had been hiding drugs in the baby's bottom, and it caused internal injuries enough to kill the child.

 

[Niner]

I have a question. For all the posters here who have opined that perhaps Lisa was kidnapped for a person who simply wants a child, when has that ever happened? I mean within the last 20 years or so. The statistics that have been thrown around on these pages say that out of the 200+ babies kidnapped, only 12 are unaccounted for. And I suspect they are probably dead.

I guess I just don't see how the logistics of stealing a baby to have for your own wold work. You can't really do anything with the child in the future without a birth certificate. Can't get a SS#. I just don't see how this theory would play out. I know we have seen quite a few crazed women trying to steal an infant directly from the womb and pass it off as their own, but a 10 month old?

I am sorry to say it, but the statistics overwhelmingly are in favor of someone in the family being the perpetrator of this crime. I really don't think she was stolen for the black market. I think the whole black market baby thing is mostly pulp fiction fantasy. In this country, anyway. But if someone could provide proof of a robust baby black market in the US, I would certainly be open to change my mind.

here's one example:

http://www.andersoncooper.com/episodes/black-market-babies-scandal/

edited to add quote from article:

Anderson explores the recently uncovered black market baby ring that has been operating for years in the United States. Run by ruthless lawyers, parentless embryos are created in overseas labs and then sold as babies for hundreds of thousands of dollars to women in America desperate for children.

 

[natsound]

respectfully snipped...

have they released the 911 call?? TIA!

I read today that 911 calls do not fall under the sunshine laws in MO, but dispatcher calls do. So I guess we won't be hearing the 911 call, or much else for that matter, until it goes to court (if it does).

 

[jjenny]

here's one example:

http://www.andersoncooper.com/episodes/black-market-babies-scandal/

edited to add quote from article:

Anderson explores the recently uncovered black market baby ring that has been operating for years in the United States. Run by ruthless lawyers, parentless embryos are created in overseas labs and then sold as babies for hundreds of thousands of dollars to women in America desperate for children.

That's not a baby kidnapping ring. That's a baby making ring.

 

[not_my_kids]

respectfully snipped...

have they released the 911 call?? TIA!

No, and they won't, IMO. FOIA excludes 911 calls in some states and this is one of them.

 

[jacy]

I hope jacy that today LE is bombarded with phone calls. I think the money being announced on Friday-with the weekend approaching-will possibly get someone talking.

I pray baby Lisa is brought home smiling and well.

I keep thinking about a loved one of mine who is near that age.I know they'd scream to high heavens without their mommy, their blankie, etc. All of that makes this case highly emotional for me.

imo

I'm right with you. I want a LOUD weekend! Loud shouts of rescue and celebration to counter the weekend of silence last week.

 

[gwenabob]

There are a few cases where people have taken babies and young kids to pass off as their own, one was resolved here just a few months ago, I don't recall the woman's name although I should, but she was stolen IIRC from a hospital, right out from under her mothers nose when she was very young, and was reunited with her family after quite sometime, and her identity confirmed as the missing child, who is now a woman. (Found it, her name was Carlina White, and she was taken in 1987, and raised by the kidnapper until this year.) Steven Stayner and the other boy that was kidnapped by his kidnapper, Marcus and Jeremiah Treanor, kidnapped by a child prostitution ring (Albeit in another country, not the US). One of the Treanor boys was recovered safe after 3 1/2 years, the other was murdered shortly before his brother's rescue. Anthonette Cayedito, who was kidnapped in the 80's and may still be alive today, due to the fact that there is still the occasional sighting, always with the same man and woman. Tara Calico's case is much the same in terms of the possibility of her still being alive. Fusako Sano, 9 years tied up on a bathroom floor, but recovered live from the severely mentally ill man that kidnapped her off the street (also a foriegn case). While not all of these kids were taken for the purpose of being raised in a happy loving home, and in fact, some of them were taken for sexual purposes, there is a common theme that all of them came home alive or they are still strongly suspected of being alive, and most were passed off as the abductor's child at one point or another.
And Sabrina Aisenberg, whose case was almost the same as Lisa's, but in that one most people do suspect her parents.

ETA: And of course, Jaycee Dugard, 18 years and passed off as her abductor's child.
Shawn Hornbeck.
The list could literally go on for quite some time.

Most cases, yeah the parents are to blame and the kid was dead before 911 was ever called, but not every case is the same. The ones above are exceptions to the rule and maybe Lisa's is too.

Thank you for this. Those are all good examples of older children being kidnapped and kept alive, but they are mostly for sexual abuse reasons. I am looking for proof of some kind of black market for babies or examples of babies being stolen for the express purpose of bypassing a legitimate adoption and keeping the baby to raise as your own. Not pedophiles stealing older children for their own perverted reasons. I just have a feeling that this idea of Lisa being kidnapped by someone who desperately wanted a baby of her own is just wishful thinking. I know I sound like Debbie Downer, but that's what I think.

If someone took the baby in order to punish one of the parents (a drug dealer or something) wouldn't it be more likely they would kill the baby and leave her where she could be found to really send a message?

I just really cannot find a plausible intruder theory that fits all the facts. I really think one or both of the parents (and possibly an accomplice) are the perps. And I think they stole a page from the Kyron Horman and Casey Anthony playbook and found that if they hide the body well enough, justice may never catch up with them.

 

[jjenny]

I think she is young enough for somebody to wanting to kidnap her in order to raise her as their child. But I am not at all convinced that is what happened. I don't think that is the most likely scenario.

 

[lonetraveler]

Just a comment about the box of wine. I have heard this box of wine villianized for days now on the media networks and the websites. FGS, it isn't like she went into cracktown and bought crack :floorlaugh:. There is nothing wrong with having a glass of wine once in a while. Maybe her brother wasn't old enough to purchase the wine so she did him a favor or maybe she wanted a glass of wine! I enjoy a glass (or two) of wine, myself and a box would last me a long time (according to my definition of a "long time" :crazy. I'm more interested in where is the box of wine? How much had been drank? Did she appear intoxicated at 4:00 am?

 

[natsound]

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15699795...old-of-theft-complaint-involving-babys-father

This case is getting stranger. The above article suggests that JI may have been involved in a larceny on August 16. It's written in vague terms, though. Is this the car break-in?

 

[Niner]

Following that theory, it would also be interesting to know if anyone has come to the house lately, perhaps pretending to be a salesperson of some kind, just to get an idea of what the layout may be, how many people live there, etc.

MOO

Also, they did have that yard sale - I believe a week before Lisa went missing... maybe someone asked to use the bathroom, etc. to get the lay out.

 

[not_my_kids]

Thank you for this. Those are all good examples of older children being kidnapped and kept alive, but they are mostly for sexual abuse reasons. I am looking for proof of some kind of black market for babies or examples of babies being stolen for the express purpose of bypassing a legitimate adoption and keeping the baby to raise as your own. Not pedophiles stealing older children for their own perverted reasons. I just have a feeling that this idea of Lisa being kidnapped by someone who desperately wanted a baby of her own is just wishful thinking. I know I sound like Debbie Downer, but that's what I think.

If someone took the baby in order to punish one of the parents (a drug dealer or something) wouldn't it be more likely they would kill the baby and leave her where she could be found to really send a message?

I just really cannot find a plausible intruder theory that fits all the facts. I really think one or both of the parents (and possibly an accomplice) are the perps. And I think they stole a page from the Kyron Horman and Casey Anthony playbook and found that if they hide the body well enough, justice may never catch up with them.

Well, then Carlina Whte is about the closest that you are going to get. 19 days old when she was taken. Of course, her abductor never tried to legally adopt her, but if she had succeeded, I guess we'd never know. As far as blackmarket rings like you described, I only know of a few, most if them not fully substantiated, but I will give you that most of those kids were taken from hospitals, either at birth or when they were babies, not out of their beds at almost a year old.

 

[marge_rita]

I'm right with you. I want a LOUD weekend! Loud shouts of rescue and celebration to counter the weekend of silence last week.

Let's keep that thought going.
Wouldn't that be wonderful?

imo

 

[not_my_kids]

So, if the larceny was JI being stolen from when the car was broken into, then what was stolen? I really, really, really want to know. And is there a car break in thread? I looked but didn't see one. TIA/.