Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #601
It would seem that Kensington was not the idylic place that some folks thought. And here is a report of a rape taking place only doors down the road from the Lyon house near the end of that path. I wonder if police were ever able to develope any persons of interest or suspects in that case - or if there were any other similar attacks known or reported to police.
Last edited by Richard; 02-15-2014 at 10:15 PM. Reason: spelling

I don't think crime in Wheaton as anywhere near as bad as in the inner cities, but Wheaton was known as a rough blue-collar area of the county compared to that very upscale areas such as Bethesda, Chevy Chase and Potomac.

Prior to DNA being used as evidence, rape was much more common since it was easier to get away with. The early 70s were also different times. An 18-year old would admit to having a 14-year old girlfriend, but not to being gay or having a black girlfriend.

While at first glance, the ages and photos of the Lyon sisters suggests that only a criminal attracted to young children, such as Lloyd Welch, would target the Lyon sisters, if the older Lyon sister looked just slightly older than her picture, she might interest a broader group of criminal rapists.
 
  • #602
Now I am realizing the "clearing" is right across from Hobson Street. Which is where Lloyd Lee Welch was arrested for burglary two years later. Do we consider this coincidence? (Sorry if I am reinventing the wheel here and this is old news....)

Could LLW have been mocking the situation of going to the
VERY SAME AREA where perhaps the abduction was accomplished or
just going to where he was already familiar with?

.

Hobson Street is not on the direct walking route that the girls, I today, or most anyone else would walk on as shown in the map below, since it's not a direct path to the plaza/mall. Some of the houses are new since 1975 and there may have been larger clearings. A good question would be other than traveling on side streets looking for houses to burglarize, what would bring a car-less person to Hobson Street.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10815-Hobson-St-Kensington-MD-20895/37296750_zpid/
 
  • #603
If RW was a security guard at or near Wheaton Plaza, would he have known of and had access to the underground loading dock?

That's why I want to hear from Jeb. He talked about this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #604
In any case such as this you have to go with the evidence whenever possible and try to develop a theory from what the evidence shows or what it might eliminate. I see a lot of speculation on these threads lately trying to find some way to try to link Lloyd and Richard West in some way to the Lyon sisters - and to what most consider to be their abduction and murder.

Admittedly, there is very little or no physical evidence (that we know of). And only some testimony evidence which is open to question and to interpretation. For instance, the time line was made up from various eyewitnesses (mostly juveniles) stating that they saw the girls and their estimates as to when they saw them.

From the various statements made to police and to on-the-scene reporters we get a pretty good picture of what the girls did and where they went - right up to the aproximate time of their disappearance. But today, police investigators are casting doubt on everything known previously and bringing out information that they have been hiding for 39 years.

In the most recent show-and-tell by investigators at Wheaton Plaza, a path through some woods (located way to the south west of the parking lot) is pointed out as a "possible" path taken by the Lyon Sisters. This path is not the one discussed in much detail in these threads, but one which would have been a good distance away from their intended route home. But then it is stated that they believe the girls to have disappeared from the mall or parking lot BEFORE reaching this new path? Note that this would tend to nullify the Drumm and Devin sightings, yet no mention of them was made by investigators.

POI Lloyd Welch appeared on the scene in a February 2014 MCP press conference, where his 1977 photo was displayed side-by-side with a drawing made on 27 March 1975 of a Long Haired Man (LHM) and kept secret for 39 years. At the time of the press conference, it was stated that MCP believed Welch may have been at Wheaton Plaza that day, and they pointed out how much he RESEMBLED the sketch of the LHM - an UNKNOWN person said to have been following and bothering the Lyon sisters. That story has since morphed into statements that Welch WAS the Long Haired Man and the he, Welch, WAS SEEN talking to and bothering the girls.

The second POI, Richard Welch has no criminal background what so ever, as far as anyone has been able to determine. He is a home owner and family man who is known to have worked in a grocery store and as a security guard some where. He adopted his own grandchildren and raised them (a process which requires criminal background checks and home studies by social workers). Unless MCP now has some solid incriminating evidence against him, he would seem a less likley candidate than the Easter Bunny or the Ice Cream Man. At least we KNOW that they were at Wheaton Plaza that day.

It is possible that these two persons of interest were involved in some way or that they know something related to the case. But it is quite a leap to make these guys out as masterminds of abduction and murder based solely on speculation.

I would expect and hope that MCP has some kind of information on these two men that would justify their open accusations and actions. If you have to speculate, think about what sort of information MCP might have, rather than trying to connect the dots at this point. Could someone have provided solid testimony against Lloyd and Richard Welch? Probably. Did the recent searches turn up any forensic physical evidence? If so, it would have been presented to the Grand Jury for consideration.

That Lloyd Welch is a dirtbag, a liar, a moron, etc. is beyond debate. Of course he is. Crazy and Evil probably would sum it up pretty well. But so are a lot of other potential suspects. Prosecutors will have a long uphill job to prove that he abducted and murdered the Lyon Sisters on his own or even "with help" considering all of the limitations previously discussed.

Was Lloyd at Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975? Did Richard Welch play some role? Maybe, but a lot of things would have to be proven beyond a doubt to 12 people on a jury before either could be convicted.

It will be interesting to see how things play out here. And to see how much of what is "known" about the case is related. Such things as all of the eyewitness sightings. The Tape Recorder Man, the Tan Ford Station Wagon, the Ransom Calls, etc. And how will MCP explain the strange lack of information about the LHM seen talking to the girls that day?
 
  • #605
In any case such as this you have to go with the evidence whenever possible and try to develop a theory from what the evidence shows or what it might eliminate. I see a lot of speculation on these threads lately trying to find some way to try to link Lloyd and Richard West in some way to the Lyon sisters - and to what most consider to be their abduction and murder.

Admittedly, there is very little or no physical evidence (that we know of). And only some testimony evidence which is open to question and to interpretation. For instance, the time line was made up from various eyewitnesses (mostly juveniles) stating that they saw the girls and their estimates as to when they saw them.

From the various statements made to police and to on-the-scene reporters we get a pretty good picture of what the girls did and where they went - right up to the aproximate time of their disappearance. But today, police investigators are casting doubt on everything known previously and bringing out information that they have been hiding for 39 years.

In the most recent show-and-tell by investigators at Wheaton Plaza, a path through some woods (located way to the south west of the parking lot) is pointed out as a "possible" path taken by the Lyon Sisters. This path is not the one discussed in much detail in these threads, but one which would have been a good distance away from their intended route home. But then it is stated that they believe the girls to have disappeared from the mall or parking lot BEFORE reaching this new path? Note that this would tend to nullify the Drumm and Devin sightings, yet no mention of them was made by investigators.

POI Lloyd Welch appeared on the scene in a February 2014 MCP press conference, where his 1977 photo was displayed side-by-side with a drawing made on 27 March 1975 of a Long Haired Man (LHM) and kept secret for 39 years. At the time of the press conference, it was stated that MCP believed Welch may have been at Wheaton Plaza that day, and they pointed out how much he RESEMBLED the sketch of the LHM - an UNKNOWN person said to have been following and bothering the Lyon sisters. That story has since morphed into statements that Welch WAS the Long Haired Man and the he, Welch, WAS SEEN talking to and bothering the girls.

The second POI, Richard Welch has no criminal background what so ever, as far as anyone has been able to determine. He is a home owner and family man who is known to have worked in a grocery store and as a security guard some where. He adopted his own grandchildren and raised them (a process which requires criminal background checks and home studies by social workers). Unless MCP now has some solid incriminating evidence against him, he would seem a less likley candidate than the Easter Bunny or the Ice Cream Man. At least we KNOW that they were at Wheaton Plaza that day.

It is possible that these two persons of interest were involved in some way or that they know something related to the case. But it is quite a leap to make these guys out as masterminds of abduction and murder based solely on speculation.

I would expect and hope that MCP has some kind of information on these two men that would justify their open accusations and actions. If you have to speculate, think about what sort of information MCP might have, rather than trying to connect the dots at this point. Could someone have provided solid testimony against Lloyd and Richard Welch? Probably. Did the recent searches turn up any forensic physical evidence? If so, it would have been presented to the Grand Jury for consideration.

That Lloyd Welch is a dirtbag, a liar, a moron, etc. is beyond debate. Of course he is. Crazy and Evil probably would sum it up pretty well. But so are a lot of other potential suspects. Prosecutors will have a long uphill job to prove that he abducted and murdered the Lyon Sisters on his own or even "with help" considering all of the limitations previously discussed.

Was Lloyd at Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975? Did Richard Welch play some role? Maybe, but a lot of things would have to be proven beyond a doubt to 12 people on a jury before either could be convicted.

It will be interesting to see how things play out here. And to see how much of what is "known" about the case is related. Such things as all of the eyewitness sightings. The Tape Recorder Man, the Tan Ford Station Wagon, the Ransom Calls, etc. And how will MCP explain the strange lack of information about the LHM seen talking to the girls that day?

With all due respect.....it's not fair or even true to say that LE has been "hiding" information or anything else for 39 years. As far as "little or no evidence(that we know of"....the most important part of that quote is ....that we know of. It really doesn't matter at all how much research any of us have done or what we think happened. None of us have seen what LE has. We don't know what was found on the search of RW's house. Just because LE is not coming up with the same perp and/or theory that some of us came up with, that doesn't mean that they are looking at the wrong people. They really do know more than we do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #606
With all due respect.....it's not fair or even true to say that LE has been "hiding" information or anything else for 39 years. As far as "little or no evidence(that we know of"....the most important part of that quote is ....that we know of. It really doesn't matter at all how much research any of us have done or what we think happened. None of us have seen what LE has. We don't know what was found on the search of RW's house. Just because LE is not coming up with the same perp and/or theory that some of us came up with, that doesn't mean that they are looking at the wrong people. They really do know more than we do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Using the words "secret" and "kept hidden" may not be the best choice of words to describe what the MC Police did with information, since it implies bad motives. A better way to describe it is that the MC Police "did not release" or "kept private" the long-hair-man sketch and likely the names or descriptions of dozens of other people, many kids, who talked or looked at the sisters that day.

Likely the reputation of anyone named as a suspect or person of information would be damaged, as it has the tape recorder man, and the second person of interest I am sure everyone here knows that releasing all information in an ongoing investigation would tip off suspects.

Still, one has to give people a bit of leeway in what they say. I just hope this entire Welch case against the second person of interest is not based on a similar misunderstanding of some decade-decade old statement such as, "My crazy nephew could have murdered those two girls," or "I think my crazy nephew murdered those two girls."
 
  • #607
In the most recent show-and-tell by investigators at Wheaton Plaza, a path through some woods (located way to the south west of the parking lot) is pointed out as a "possible" path taken by the Lyon Sisters. This path is not the one discussed in much detail in these threads, but one which would have been a good distance away from their intended route home. But then it is stated that they believe the girls to have disappeared from the mall or parking lot BEFORE reaching this new path? Note that this would tend to nullify the Drumm and Devin sightings, yet no mention of them was made by investigators.

I am fairly sure the path shown on TV, the "hippie path," that goes from McCommas to the mall, was only shown as a path because 1) it was close to the mall and 2) the other path is long gone.

I would have to go back and look at the TV clip, but I am fairly sure they used wiggle words such as a path like this one (the hippie path).

And in any case the police think the girls did not make it to any path or anywhere outside the mall, a point I am not sure I agree with.
 
  • #608
I am fairly sure the path shown on TV, the "hippie path," that goes from McCommas to the mall, was only shown as a path because 1) it was close to the mall and 2) the other path is long gone.

I would have to go back and look at the TV clip, but I am fairly sure they used wiggle words such as a path like this one (the hippie path).

And in any case the police think the girls did not make it to any path or anywhere outside the mall, a point I am not sure I agree with.

I don't understand what LE is saying or maybe I'm reading it wrong? What is meant by "anywhere outside the mall"? Are they saying that they don't think the girls even made it to Wards parking lot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #609
I think the police said they now believe the girls never made it "from the mall" which would include the parking lot.
But the police may have be vague or misspoken just as I did.
http://www.wset.com/story/26797749/where-are-the-lyon-sisters-retracing-their-steps

Given that there is no forensic evidence, as the police state in the video, I would GUESS that the police could only estimate the location of the crime by either prior failed abduction attempts (I am a security guard come with me), Lloyd Welch had some hidden place on mall property to hang out, or the police have some second or third hand account of the crime. Of course any account of any crime originating from Lloyd would be worthless without additional evidence.

I may be reading between the lines in the police interview too much, but I get the impression that the police are disappointed that the mall was remodeled (several times) ruining their chance of getting any forensic evidence, such as forty-year-old blood stains. Just walking out to a car would not leave any forensic evidence.
 
  • #610
Even though previous crimes may not be admissible as evidence in court, it is helpful in seeing patterns of someone.

We KNOW LLW is currently doing time in jail for crimes against girls.
We KNOW LE says that they can place him at Wheaton Plaza on March 25, 1975.

Does anyone KNOW if he had a pattern of attacking girls with blonde hair?
I think it may be a story that was stretched that he especially watched girls with blonde hair.
 
  • #611
I don't think I have ever come across any discussions about LLW's crimes he is doing time for in Delaware.
Richard, do you or anyone else have documentation of his convictions and the details of those?

Also, DID HE AND HELEN CRAVER have 4 children or at least one, out of wedlock that were taken away from them?
Can that be supported with documentation?

If so, WHY were the children taken?
Could it have been MORE than that they were young and traveling the country?

WHAT ARE we ABLE to FIND OUT??

Has ANYONE questioned if LLW had harbored animosity toward Helen Craver, that he was sent to jail?
Has anyone seen Helen Craver's death certificate with "Cause of Death"?
 
  • #612
It seems logical that police seem to indicate that perhaps the girls never made it from the mall, which would probably include the parking lot.

In order for them to be searching Taylor's Mountain for their remains, they had to be transported, which means a vehicle from the PARKING LOT at the mall.

That would fit in with their not making it to the path, which would have been beyond the parking lot.
 
  • #613
I don't think I have ever come across any discussions about LLW's crimes he is doing time for in Delaware.
Richard, do you or anyone else have documentation of his convictions and the details of those?

Also, DID HE AND HELEN CRAVER have 4 children or at least one, out of wedlock that were taken away from them?
Can that be supported with documentation?

If so, WHY were the children taken?
Could it have been MORE than that they were young and traveling the country?

WHAT ARE we ABLE to FIND OUT??

Has ANYONE questioned if LLW had harbored animosity toward Helen Craver, that he was sent to jail?
Has anyone seen Helen Craver's death certificate with "Cause of Death"?

Welch is in prison for raping his girlfriend's 10 yr old daughter. He didn't deny it. He had at least 3 kids with Helen but I'm thinking it was 4? The kids were taken away because their parents weren't taking care of them. I'm not sure what you mean about Welch being upset with Helen because he went to jail. He went to jail for assaulting young girls. I've not seen her death certificate. You can find everything I've answered here by searching Helen Craver and/or Welch. It's all been reported. Hope that helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #614
On the back side of the plaza/mall (away from entrances University Blvd and Viers Mill Rd) there is a buffer zone of 50 to 100 feet or more in the 1970s, from the ring road around the mall parking lot. This buffer zone is between the swimming pool or residential houses, or some empty lots (such as the hippie path). Most of this buffer zone is little traveled, because there is no point in walking up to a swimming pool in the winter, or behind someone's house. But this buffer zone drops off 10, 20 or 30 feet in elevation, because the mall land was bulldozed flat. If one was up to no-good, this buffer zone would be an out of sight spot. I think this buffer zone is mostly mall property.
 
  • #615
Helen Craver has always been an enigma to me; I've only ever seen a handful of impersonal facts about her, such as her age. Considering her involvement with LLW, it's hard to imagine that she wasn't also a victim in some capacity. :( Like simplify, I'm also curious to know how she died so young.
 
  • #616
I have read he is in jail for crimes against girls in Virginia, South Carolina and Delaware.
Wasn't one of them Helen Craver's 10 year old daughter in Delaware?
If so, I believe it is a daughter she had after she got married to someone.
If so, I wonder how it happened that he was around her daughter at that
point in time?

Interesting how it sounds like he confessed so easily.
As a speculation point, could HC have known more about possible other crimes
of his throughout the country as they traveled with the carnivals and perhaps she
threatened to spill everything she knew if he did not confess about her daughter?
 
  • #617
I have read he is in jail for crimes against girls in Virginia, South Carolina and Delaware.
Wasn't one of them Helen Craver's 10 year old daughter in Delaware?
If so, I believe it is a daughter she had after she got married to someone.
If so, I wonder how it happened that he was around her daughter at that
point in time?

Interesting how it sounds like he confessed so easily.
As a speculation point, could HC have known more about possible other crimes
of his throughout the country as they traveled with the carnivals and perhaps she
threatened to spill everything she knew if he did not confess about her daughter?

No, Helen Craver had moved on and remarried when she died. The child that he assaulted in Delaware belongs to the woman he was dating at the time. Helen may have known about his crimes when she was still with him but he did not kill her and the Delaware victim has nothing to do with Helen Craver. Her sister gave an interview about Helen's life. I wish she were still living. I really think she could fill in some of the holes for LE. [emoji20]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #618
Helen Craver has always been an enigma to me; I've only ever seen a handful of impersonal facts about her, such as her age. Considering her involvement with LLW, it's hard to imagine that she wasn't also a victim in some capacity. :( Like simplify, I'm also curious to know how she died so young.

According to her sister,Helen had a rough life with Welch and her family was glad when she left him. She was married to someone else when she died. Her sister didn't say what caused her death but didn't imply that Welch had anything to do with it. She also never got back the kids that she had with Welch. That's about all that has been said about her in the media.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #619
  • #620
Interesting how it sounds like he confessed so easily.

From his long sentence in Delaware, it appears that Lloyd Welch did not get much of a "deal" or plea bargain.

I would GUESS that that DNA evidence caught up with Lloyd, just as it caught up with most other sex criminals, and it's no longer possible to deny sex. Even Bill Clinton could no longer deny his improper relationships.

Also with a few other sex-crime convictions on his record, if Lloyd tried to lie his way out of it (That young 🤬🤬🤬🤬 just does not want to admit she is a 🤬🤬🤬🤬 and sleeping with someone else, so she is blaming me), his past record would used against him in court.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
130
Guests online
2,942
Total visitors
3,072

Forum statistics

Threads
632,128
Messages
18,622,515
Members
243,029
Latest member
WriterAddict
Back
Top