Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

[Richard]

Forensic Evidence....

Police have NOT claimed to have found any Physical or Forensic Evidence as yet. However, here is some of the POSSIBLE/POTENTIAL Physical Evidence that they would be searching for:

- Bodies or Body parts, including any blood or hair which might be tested for DNA.

- Clothing which might be matched to what the girls were wearing when last seen (which could be tested for DNA).

- Jewelry, Eyeglasses, or any personal property carried by the girls.

- Other items such as carpeting, bedding, ropes, or clothing which might have been touched by the girls (again DNA trace evidence)

- Photographs of the girls taken before, on, or after 25 March 1975.

- Video or audio tape recordings of the girls.

- Finger prints of the girls in suspected locations where they might have been taken.

- Clothing worn by or items carried by persons of interest on 25 March 1975, such as TRM's tape recorder or LHM's Peters Jacket. In other words something to connect any suspect to persons who were known to have been in contact with the girls at Wheaton Plaza.

- Automobiles owned by any suspects or thought to have been used in an abduction.


Obviously there are other types of physical evidence that might be in existence today which would connect a suspect to the girls' disappearance. Just because no such physical evidence had been found at the time, does not mean that it does not still exist. I would expect that most of the above would have been included on the search warrants issued to MCP and investigators during the recent searches.

Wheaton Plaza has changed significantly over the past 40 years. Any physical evidence which might have been left behind at the shopping center in 1975 is most likely long gone. But even if it were to be found there today, connecting it to any suspects would be very hard. IF, however, any of the above were to be found at a suspect's home.... that would mean a significant connection between the suspect and the girls.

 

[Richard]

Using the words "secret" and "kept hidden" may not be the best choice of words to describe what the MC Police did with information, since it implies bad motives. A better way to describe it is that the MC Police "did not release" or "kept private" the long-hair-man sketch and likely the names or descriptions of dozens of other people, many kids, who talked or looked at the sisters that day.
...."

Say it any way you want. MCP did NOT release the information about a Long Haired Man (LHM) or their sketch of him until November 2013 - and even then with only a passing reference to "an incident" in 1975 in Wheaton, Maryland. It was not until February 2014 that they released the information about the Long Haired Man following and bothering the girls at Wheaton Plaza 25 March 1975 and actually connected the sketch to that particular "incident".

The LHM sketch was drawn on 27 March 1975 (as indicated on the sketch itself) by PFC Davis Morton of MCP. The next day, 28 March, he drew the sketch of the Tape Recorder Man (TRM).

Had MCP released the LHM sketch before (or at the same time as) the TRM sketch, they might have solved the case in 1975. Someone might have said, "Hey, that description and sketch looks just like Crazy Lloyd!" or "I saw that guy, too and he was with ..."

They kept the sketch and information from the public for 39 years. They must have done this for some reason, but it is only speculation as to what that reason might have been. Did that reason out weigh the potential assistance which might have been given by the public?

Were the two sketched individuals (TRM and LHM) working together? Perhaps the police were trying to get one to come forward to identify the other? Just speculation, of course, but the odd disparity in how each lead was handled begs the question.

 

[Richard]

It would be very interesting to see what information (if any) Lloyd Welch might have given to MCP on 1 April 1975. It was on that day that he provided them with his name and Hyattsville address. And most likely on that day that he called them with a "tip" in an attempt to claim a $7,000 reward announced in that day's papers.

It was also in the same 1 April 1975 newspapers that the Tape Recorder Man story and sketch first appeared.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

One of my guesses is that there was SO MUCH going on at the time after this happened.

Could there have been other sketches too that were done, many perhaps?

I wonder if once a "fresh set of eyes" on the cold case happened and perhaps one or more of the police officers and investigators no longer worked for Montgomery County police, if that opened the door to connecting the dots from information received way back that should have been released immediately as Richard mentioned.

 

[j123]

It would be very interesting to see what information (if any) Lloyd Welch might have given to MCP on 1 April 1975. It was on that day that he provided them with his name and Hyattsville address. And most likely on that day that he called them with a "tip" in an attempt to claim a $7,000 reward announced in that day's papers.

It was also in the same 1 April 1975 newspapers that the Tape Recorder Man story and sketch first appeared.

I never made the connection with what LLW was seeing when he called in that tip.

I had assumed he was just phoning in vague, fake information to collect the tip. But with the TRM sketch in mind, I wonder if he was calling to confirm that, yes, it absolutely WAS the TRM etc. I can see LLW thinking that was a brilliant idea, and also thanking his lucky stars that the police were looking for this TRM rather than himself.

 

[steveP120]

They kept the (long-hair-man) sketch and information from the public for 39 years. They must have done this for some reason, but it is only speculation as to what that reason might have been. Did that reason out weigh the potential assistance which might have been given by the public?

Like you say, it's only speculation, but the only good reason I can see for the police not releasing the long-hair-man sketch is that they already ruled him out. While looking at two girls is not a crime, and several people must have looked at the girls that day including tape-recorder-man, not looking into long-hair man long enough to rule him out would be very bad police work in my opinion.

The police did say they checked and doubled checked the alibi of every sex offender in the area, the usual suspects. Perhaps the police mistook the sketch Long-Hair-man or another long-hair man, many of whom must have been working at the mall in the 70's.

Perhaps the police did match long-hair man with Lloyd Welch, but thought he was a carless, near-homeless person who did not have the ability to commit the crime, but this does not match the police story of the cold case unit matching Welch with the sketch only recently. With very bad record keeping, it's possible that the police ruled Welch out in 1975 - as they did not think his tip serious enough to follow up on, but just did not bother to write down why Welch was ruled out such as alibi, hunch.

 

[steveP120]

I never made the connection with what LLW was seeing when he called in that tip.

I had assumed he was just phoning in vague, fake information to collect the tip. But with the TRM sketch in mind, I wonder if he was calling to confirm that, yes, it absolutely WAS the TRM etc. I can see LLW thinking that was a brilliant idea, and also thanking his lucky stars that the police were looking for this TRM rather than himself.

Llowd Welch could have actually seen the tape recorder man since he did or was seen as in long-hair-man sketch seeing the girls.
I doubt it, but it's also possible that Lloyd did see the sisters, but also dozens of other cute girls that day and forgot about seeing them. I can only remember a handful of the fifty to 100 attractive women I saw at the the mall yesterday, but I try not to stare as Welch did.

Lloyd staring at the girls reminds me of many men waiting to pick up some women, but waiting for the women to be alone or with just one other girl, since starting a conversation with a large group of friends is more difficult, than with a lonely woman alone.

 

[Motherof5]

Like you say, it's only speculation, but the only good reason I can see for the police not releasing the long-hair-man sketch is that they already ruled him out. While looking at two girls is not a crime, and several people must have looked at the girls that day including tape-recorder-man, not looking into long-hair man long enough to rule him out would be very bad police work in my opinion.

The police did say they checked and doubled checked the alibi of every sex offender in the area, the usual suspects. Perhaps the police mistook the sketch Long-Hair-man or another long-hair man, many of whom must have been working at the mall in the 70's.

Perhaps the police did match long-hair man with Lloyd Welch, but thought he was a carless, near-homeless person who did not have the ability to commit the crime, but this does not match the police story of the cold case unit matching Welch with the sketch only recently. With very bad record keeping, it's possible that the police ruled Welch out in 1975 - as they did not think his tip serious enough to follow up on, but just did not bother to write down why Welch was ruled out such as alibi, hunch.

It's also possible that TRM mania gave them tunnel vision. I believe a fresh set of eyes played a huge part in this. That happens a lot with cold cases.


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[steveP120]

It's also possible that TRM mania gave them tunnel vision. I believe a fresh set of eyes played a huge part in this. That happens a lot with cold cases.

I agree, but tunnel vision should be by definition bad police work.
And for all the police knew, long-hair-man might have seen tape-recorder-man and helped a tape-recorder-man case.

 

[Motherof5]

It was mentioned somewhere in previous posts that RW has no criminal record. That really means nothing here. It simply means that if he was involved, he hasn't been caught yet. I have seen this before as well as in one of my current cases on WS. There have even been cops who have no record and were raping and killing women. There is a reason why LE is looking at him. We just don't know what it is yet.


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[Motherof5]

I agree, but tunnel vision should be by definition bad police work.
And for all the police knew, long-hair-man might have seen tape-recorder-man and helped a tape-recorder-man case.

It's possible, but I am not convinced that TRM was there that day. We need to remember that LE didn't have the same training,technology or know how to really investigate a double child abduction in 1975. Had the girls gone missing today,I think it would have been solved much sooner. The rain after they went missing didn't help the tracking dogs either.


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[simplifymylife2014]

It is an interesting thought that if LLW called in to report the TRM, could that mean that TRM was there and had nothing to do with it and Lloyd was just trying to create tunnel vision with hopes that TRM would be framed and caught and LLW get the reward money?

It seems logical that money may have been one thing that enticed LLW.
If he were seriously thinking about being the ONE to receive that reward money, he would have to know he needed to give more than a vague tip.

 

[thebigcookie]

At this point, I've been wondering if the tape recorder man was even at the mall the day they disappeared. I saw an old post of someone else's on another thread that seemed to suggest he wasn't. Did anyone else report seeing TRM that day at the mall besides this "Jimmy" and his so-called friend. As another person stated on that old thread for all we know, Jimmy may have been at the mall on a different day and seen TRM then talking to girls and just decided to make up a story saying he saw the Lyon sisters talking to him that day. How credible is this Jimmy? Did he really see TRM that day or was he just saying that to get attention?

 

[Richard]

You can't pick and choose what to believe regarding eyewitness testimony - unless it has been completely and properly investigated and then accepted or rejected for solid reasons. Just stating that you don't believe the Tape Recorder Man was there - based solely on speculation - does not make it so.

In March of 1975, MCP announced that the Tape Recorder Man was present and speaking with the girls shortly before they disappeared. They have said that he might or might not have had anything to do with the girl's disappearance, but they have never stated that he was not there.

The same MCP is today declaring that the Long Haired Man was there speaking with the Lyon sisters as well - although they didn't report it until 2014. They have provided much less information about how or why they think that he was there or why they believe that. Yet some have accepted completely that he was not only there, but was both an abductor and murderer.

There are a number of combinations and permutations possible regarding clues and aparent clues, and possible clues. But to simply throw one out because it does not fit one's pet theory is not really a systematic way of looking at things.

 

[Motherof5]

At this point, I've been wondering if the tape recorder man was even at the mall the day they disappeared. I saw an old post of someone else's on another thread that seemed to suggest he wasn't. Did anyone else report seeing TRM that day at the mall besides this "Jimmy" and his so-called friend. As another person stated on that old thread for all we know, Jimmy may have been at the mall on a different day and seen TRM then talking to girls and just decided to make up a story saying he saw the Lyon sisters talking to him that day. How credible is this Jimmy? Did he really see TRM that day or was he just saying that to get attention?

I don't believe TRM was there that day. There was a man who we call,TRM2, who was going to area malls talking to girls and trying to record them. This man came forward and admitted to this but said that he wasn't at WP on 3/25 and he had a very good alibi. He got into a car accident with a government vehicle. I believe that "Jimmy" and friend saw this man at the mall prior to 3/25. "Jimmy" didn't come forward with his story until days after it was all over the news that the girls were missing. If you read his interview, you'll see that he was sitting there smiling while telling his story. Sorry, I think he used the guy he'd seen at the mall before to create his story. I don't believe there were two TRM running around. Many people believe him but that's JMO.


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[Motherof5]

You can't pick and choose what to believe regarding eyewitness testimony - unless it has been completely and properly investigated and then accepted or rejected for solid reasons. Just stating that you don't believe the Tape Recorder Man was there - based solely on speculation - does not make it so.

In March of 1975, MCP announced that the Tape Recorder Man was present and speaking with the girls shortly before they disappeared. They have said that he might or might not have had anything to do with the girl's disappearance, but they have never stated that he was not there.

The same MCP is today declaring that the Long Haired Man was there speaking with the Lyon sisters as well - although they didn't report it until 2014. They have provided much less information about how or why they think that he was there or why they believe that. Yet some have accepted completely that he was not only there, but was both an abductor and murderer.

There are a number of combinations and permutations possible regarding clues and aparent clues, and possible clues. But to simply throw one out because it does not fit one's pet theory is not really a systematic way of looking at things.

Richard, what do you make of the ransom demand (Annapolis Court House) and why LE took it so seriously? I can't imagine what was said by the caller?


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[Motherof5]

Like you say, it's only speculation, but the only good reason I can see for the police not releasing the long-hair-man sketch is that they already ruled him out. While looking at two girls is not a crime, and several people must have looked at the girls that day including tape-recorder-man, not looking into long-hair man long enough to rule him out would be very bad police work in my opinion.

The police did say they checked and doubled checked the alibi of every sex offender in the area, the usual suspects. Perhaps the police mistook the sketch Long-Hair-man or another long-hair man, many of whom must have been working at the mall in the 70's.

Perhaps the police did match long-hair man with Lloyd Welch, but thought he was a carless, near-homeless person who did not have the ability to commit the crime, but this does not match the police story of the cold case unit matching Welch with the sketch only recently. With very bad record keeping, it's possible that the police ruled Welch out in 1975 - as they did not think his tip serious enough to follow up on, but just did not bother to write down why Welch was ruled out such as alibi, hunch.

LE checked every sex offender in the area but did Welch have a record for sex offenses at that time? Does anyone know? Also, I think a HUGE part of why Welch was passed over was his age at the time and that's probably why so many people can't accept that an 18 yr old did this....until you factor in his uncle who was a security guard in that area. That's when it all falls into place for me. 18 yr olds do rape and kill people. I just think that LE had a different picture in there minds of what this monster would look like and be like and they were probably assuming someone older. Welch just looked like a punk. That punk is evil and probably had help. JMO


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[Motherof5]

You can't pick and choose what to believe regarding eyewitness testimony - unless it has been completely and properly investigated and then accepted or rejected for solid reasons. Just stating that you don't believe the Tape Recorder Man was there - based solely on speculation - does not make it so.

In March of 1975, MCP announced that the Tape Recorder Man was present and speaking with the girls shortly before they disappeared. They have said that he might or might not have had anything to do with the girl's disappearance, but they have never stated that he was not there.

The same MCP is today declaring that the Long Haired Man was there speaking with the Lyon sisters as well - although they didn't report it until 2014. They have provided much less information about how or why they think that he was there or why they believe that. Yet some have accepted completely that he was not only there, but was both an abductor and murderer.

There are a number of combinations and permutations possible regarding clues and aparent clues, and possible clues. But to simply throw one out because it does not fit one's pet theory is not really a systematic way of looking at things.

LE can't really say that TRM actually was there. Anyone could have said anything and that doesn't make it true. There is a big difference between Jimmy saying he saw the girls talking to TRM who is still to this day...a ghost and the girls' friend saying that a man was paying special attention to the girls. This man's sketch looks just like a RSO who is currently in prison and LE can actually place the RSO at the mall on 3/25/75. The RSO has also said he was at the mall walking around. That is reality. That is an actual person. Jimmy gave us a story that has amounted to nothing in 39 years. JMO


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[steveP120]

I don't believe TRM was there that day.

I always thought the tape recorder man was there, but that he was just some weird man who maybe had a sexual attraction to kids, but not involved in the crime.

Most of the other spotting of the girls were based on two girls walking past or driving past, an ordinary event. I could not tell you the number of two girls or two women I passed last weekend. I would expect many of these type of sightings to be off by date, time or wrong girls.

An eyewitness account of of a man with a tape-recorder talking to the two girls is an experience one would remember. I suppose it could be all made up by a kid, who fooled the police, but I doubt it. Except to theories where tape recorder man is guilty, it really does not matter if he was a figment of a kid's imagination or some non-criminal odd character.

To be fair to the police, who may have had tunnel vision, tunnel vision or confirmation bias occurs in every field I have been involved with. For example, I am open to arguments that Obama is good, bad, or OK, but economist Paul Krugman must be suffering from confirmation bias, seeing only the good about Obama and only the bad about Republicans, to argue that Obama is "One of the most successful presidents in American History."

 

[Richard]

I don't believe TRM was there that day. There was a man who we call,TRM2, who was going to area malls talking to girls and trying to record them. This man came forward and admitted to this but said that he wasn't at WP on 3/25 and he had a very good alibi. He got into a car accident with a government vehicle. I believe that "Jimmy" and friend saw this man at the mall prior to 3/25. "Jimmy" didn't come forward with his story until days after it was all over the news that the girls were missing. If you read his interview, you'll see that he was sitting there smiling while telling his story. Sorry, I think he used the guy he'd seen at the mall before to create his story. I don't believe there were two TRM running around. Many people believe him but that's JMO.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you have left something significant out of the story about the "second" TRM. He stated that he had NEVER done his Tape Recorder thing in Montgomery County.

He went on to give a plausable alibi for not being at Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975, but he said NEVER - not just on that one day.

The Tape Recorder Man was seen at Wheaton Plaza on three separate days prior to 25 March 1975 and also at White Oak Mall, which is also in Montgomery County.

One might also question the motives of the supposed 2nd TRM and it has never been stated that his photo was ever shown to anyone who reported seeing him in the PG County Malls.