Lou Smit

[BBB167893]

[HOTYH] "Its a good thing PR never took up mountain climbing, or certainly her knot tieing abilities would've automatically made her guilty of child murder."

A husband in the Navy who happens to be a boat enthusiast; a son who's in the Boy Scouts. No way she didn't pick up some of that. I know I did. Grandpa was in the Navy. Taught me all kinds of stuff. She's lucky she wasn't stupid enough to spray Silly String in that graveside photo of hers!

 

[Seeker]

"The documents — all filed under secrecy and kept under seal until this week — began flying on Feb. 1, 1999, when Hunter filed for a temporary restraining order and injunction requiring Smit to return a crime-scene video, a compact disc containing "investigation photographs" and items copied onto Smit's home computer. Hunter later obtained the temporary order, but it was dropped when the two signed the agreement."

That IS my source, Seeker. And no, I don't let ST or Arndt off the hook, either.

Dave, I thought he was contracted when Hunter asked him to come out of retirement to begin with. I think the "contract" Smit was referring to was the one he initially signed with the BDA's office...not the agreement they signed after the fact.

That's why I think we (well some of us) would love to see that initial contract. I wonder if the initial contract he signed said he could keep any copies of evidence he produced. If so then he never stole anything and Hunter was just being petty. Smit never showed any of his evidence long after PMPT (which we know Hunter gave Schiller access to police reports to help him write it), the Vanity Fair article (ST leaked while still employed and working on the case) ST book and even the Ramsey's book had been out.

 

[BBB167893]

Dave, I thought he was contracted when Hunter asked him to come out of retirement to begin with. I think the "contract" Smit was referring to was the one he initially signed with the BDA's office...not the agreement they signed after the fact.

That's why I think we (well some of us) would love to see that initial contract. I wonder if the initial contract he signed said he could keep any copies of evidence he produced. If so then he never stole anything and Hunter was just being petty. Smit never showed any of his evidence long after PMPT (which we know Hunter gave Schiller access to police reports to help him write it), the Vanity Fair article (ST leaked while still employed and working on the case) ST book and even the Ramsey's book had been out.

Maybe, Seeker, but I doubt the initial contract permitted him to keep evidence he developed.

I don't let ST and Hunter off the hook, either. But they weren't asked to return their caches and refused.

 

[Camper]

quoting just partial of the original post Dave,

I don't let ST and Hunter off the hook, either. But they weren't asked to return their caches and refused.

SuperDave, HOW could ST and Hunter refuse if they were not asked? You can only 'refuse' IF you are asked.

To just NOT return any info they had was an option apparently er - splain that to me cuz I am sorta slow.

Ya see I read most times 'very carefully' but sometimes I miss somethin'.

.

 

[BBB167893]

Non-sequiter, Camper. Disregard.

 

[rashomon]

Its a good thing PR never took up mountain climbing, or certainly her knot tieing abilities would've automatically made her guilty of child murder.

I think this would in fact have exonerated her, because according to Delmar England these knots were done by a bungling amateur who knew next to nothing about knots and ligatures. I suppose anyone able to tie a shoelace could tie the knot around JB's neck, and what is 'sophisticated' about wrapping the remaining cord around a broken paintbrush handle?

And just look at the way JB's wrists were tied: Loosely, and with far too much space between the hands, which would have allowed a free moving of the hands, something any kidnapper would have avoided. A child could have freed her hands from a ligature like that. Had she been alive, that is.
To me it is exactly the poor construction of the ligatures which points to Patsy as the stager of the scene. And fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape and in the paint tray which were consistent with the clothes she was wearing on Christmas complete the picture.

 

[Solace]

I think this would in fact have exonerated her, because according to Delmar England these knots were done by a bungling amateur who knew next to nothing about knots and ligatures. I suppose anyone able to tie a shoelace could tie the knot around JB's neck, and what is 'sophisticated' about wrapping the remaining cord around a broken paintbrush handle?

And just look at the way JB's wrists were tied: Loosely, and with far too much space between the hands, which would have allowed a free moving of the hands, something any kidnapper would have avoided. A child could have freed her hands from a ligature like that. Had she been alive, that is.
To me it is exactly the poor construction of the ligatures which points to Patsy as the stager of the scene. And fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape and in the paint tray which were consistent with the clothes she was wearing on Christmas complete the picture.

Rash: Do you know why it was that it took more than a year to get the clothes? Was it because it took that long to get the DA's office to subpoena them or was it because the Ramseys were stalling via attorneys.

I remember reading one of the transcripts with the Ramseys being interviewed by Dateline or one of those and the interviewer questions Patsy about the fibers and Patsy says they probably were transferred when she hugged JB after John brought her up. But the interviewer did not follow up with the tape had been left downstairs and did not come in contact with Patsy, yet the fibers are there.

We could have done a better job. What a pass they have been given numerous times by incompetent interviewers.

And when LK asks John why he hired attorneys and John answers "we didn't just hire attorneys, we hired investigators; we were looking for the best minds in the country to help find the killer". And of course LK lets that pass and John does an excellent job of skating the question.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I think this would in fact have exonerated her, because according to Delmar England these knots were done by a bungling amateur who knew next to nothing about knots and ligatures. I suppose anyone able to tie a shoelace could tie the knot around JB's neck, and what is 'sophisticated' about wrapping the remaining cord around a broken paintbrush handle?

And just look at the way JB's wrists were tied: Loosely, and with far too much space between the hands, which would have allowed a free moving of the hands, something any kidnapper would have avoided. A child could have freed her hands from a ligature like that. Had she been alive, that is.
To me it is exactly the poor construction of the ligatures which points to Patsy as the stager of the scene. And fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape and in the paint tray which were consistent with the clothes she was wearing on Christmas complete the picture.

Delmar England, whoever that is, is wrong. The ligatures worked together to form an effective restraining device, that according to LE more closely involved in the case than Delmar England.

Meanwhile, JBR is going to be covered in fibers from the clothing PR was wearing on Christmas. JBR would naturally transfer fibers to the duct tape. PR's fibers are going to be prevalent on anything anywhere in the house. Thats a given. It would be different if the paint tray, duct tape, and JBR were in different geographical locations.

 

[BBB167893]

Delmar England, whoever that is, is wrong. The ligatures worked together to form an effective restraining device, that according to LE more closely involved in the case than Delmar England.

Meanwhile, JBR is going to be covered in fibers from the clothing PR was wearing on Christmas. JBR would naturally transfer fibers to the duct tape. PR's fibers are going to be prevalent on anything anywhere in the house. Thats a given. It would be different if the paint tray, duct tape, and JBR were in different geographical locations.

If you read the autopsy report, you'll see Mr. England is quite correct.

As for the fibers, she wasn't "covered" in them, as you say. Do you know how many people are in prison due to fiber evidence like this, HOTYH? It's a long list.

"I remember reading one of the transcripts with the Ramseys being interviewed by Dateline or one of those and the interviewer questions Patsy about the fibers and Patsy says they probably were transferred when she hugged JB after John brought her up. But the interviewer did not follow up with the tape had been left downstairs and did not come in contact with Patsy, yet the fibers are there."

Not only that, but the body had already been covered up by a blanket and sweatshirt when she did that. Her explanation doesn't hold water.

 

[rashomon]

Delmar England, whoever that is, is wrong. The ligatures worked together to form an effective restraining device, that according to LE more closely involved in the case than Delmar England.

Meanwhile, JBR is going to be covered in fibers from the clothing PR was wearing on Christmas. JBR would naturally transfer fibers to the duct tape. PR's fibers are going to be prevalent on anything anywhere in the house. Thats a given. It would be different if the paint tray, duct tape, and JBR were in different geographical locations.

"Restraining device"?
- Please explain how 15/2 inches of cord between the ligatures on JBs wrists formed an 'effective restraining device'. Given so much space, the victim could have moved her hands freely.
- Please explain why the perp tied one loop so loosely around JB's wrist that it wasn't even on her wrist anymore when Dr. Meyer did the autopsy.
- Please explain why the other ligature loosely tied on top of JB's sleeve was an 'effective restraining device'. That ligature was more or less like a shoelace tie. Coroner Meyer could untie it with no effort at all.
And btw, no kidnapper would tie a ligature on top of the victim's sleeve either. All JB needed to do was tug a little at her sleeve and the cord would not have restrained anymore.

And remember that John removed the duct tape from JB's mouth in the basement before Patsy threw herself theatrically on JB's body in the living room. But fibers consistent with Patsy's clothing she had worn to the Whites' party were on the duct tape and in the paint tray in the basement .

 

[Toltec]

What really gets my goat is the picture of the basement window that Smit uses in his powerpoint. He has a picture of the window wide open, then goes on to say the intruder came in through that window. The window was not open that wide but slightly ajar. John closed and latched that window around 11am when he went downstairs.

Thomas copied the case files because Smit and others were changing their statements so he decided to keep the files original.

 

[Camper]

Non-sequiter, Camper. Disregard.

I knew it, but I couldn't resist. Happiness will reign, while I am gone til August. Who will annoy you while I am absent?

.

 

[Camper]

What really gets my goat is the picture of the basement window that Smit uses in his powerpoint. He has a picture of the window wide open, then goes on to say the intruder came in through that window. The window was not open that wide but slightly ajar. John closed and latched that window around 11am when he went downstairs.

Thomas copied the case files because Smit and others were changing their statements so he decided to keep the files original.

Toltec, great point! :clap::clap:
Been reading the posts here, just got home from a bon voyagé party.

Some posters are just not reading carefully. I am reading a book called 'The Door In The Wall'. 18th century England setting, if I recall correctly. Book states that buildings in that era had 'Wind Holes', guessing that that feature became what is commonly called 'Window' today. I can see in my minds eye Smit sitting in that infamous basement wind hole/window.

He certainly has disappeared from view through windows, doors or media these days. Wonder if we have heard the last of him?

Byé til August.

.
.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"Restraining device"?
- Please explain how 15/2 inches of cord between the ligatures on JBs wrists formed an 'effective restraining device'. Given so much space, the victim could have moved her hands freely.
- Please explain why the perp tied one loop so loosely around JB's wrist that it wasn't even on her wrist anymore when Dr. Meyer did the autopsy.
- Please explain why the other ligature loosely tied on top of JB's sleeve was an 'effective restraining device'. That ligature was more or less like a shoelace tie. Coroner Meyer could untie it with no effort at all.
And btw, no kidnapper would tie a ligature on top of the victim's sleeve either. All JB needed to do was tug a little at her sleeve and the cord would not have restrained anymore.

This is like saying David couldn't have killed Goliath because when found, his sling was too loose to throw the rock.

 

[BBB167893]

This is like saying David couldn't have killed Goliath because when found, his sling was too loose to throw the rock.

That's a far-flung analogy, HOTYH! LOL!

But you can't change what the coroner saw.

"Who will annoy you while I am absent?"

Camper, you have nothing to worry about. Something ALWAYS annoys me regarding this case!

 

[rashomon]

(Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat):
This is like saying David couldn't have killed Goliath because when found, his sling was too loose to throw the rock.

That's a far-flung analogy, HOTYH! LOL!

'Far-flung' analogy indeed, HOTYH. (far-flung: very apt word choice in that context, SuperDave - lol!).

HOTYH: the Bible doesn't say anything about David's sling being too loose, does it, so we can assume that the sling was just perfect to fit its purpose.

But what do you think would have happened if let's say, David had only knocked Goliath unconscious with the stone and not killed him, and then tied his hands with a cord leaving a 15-inch space between Goliath's hands?
Can you imagine what would have happened after Goliath woke up?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

'Far-flung' analogy indeed, HOTYH. (far-flung: very apt word choice in that context, SuperDave - lol!).

HOTYH: the Bible doesn't say anything about David's sling being too loose, does it, so we can assume that the sling was just perfect to fit its purpose.

But what do you think would have happened if let's say, David had only knocked Goliath unconscious with the stone and not killed him, and then tied his hands with a cord leaving a 15-inch space between Goliath's hands?
Can you imagine what would have happened after Goliath woke up?

Your idea is that the second ligature was never actually used as a weapon, because it was found in a position, or designed in a way, where it had no restraining function. Is this right?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

But you can't change what the coroner saw.

Why would I want to? The coroner didn't 'see' anything that supports RDI. Besides, what the coroner saw fit a vicious attacker far better than a filicidal parent anyway.

 

[BBB167893]

"'Far-flung' analogy indeed, HOTYH. (far-flung: very apt word choice in that context, SuperDave - lol!)."

That's why I said it, rashomon!

"But what do you think would have happened if let's say, David had only knocked Goliath unconscious with the stone and not killed him, and then tied his hands with a cord leaving a 15-inch space between Goliath's hands?
Can you imagine what would have happened after Goliath woke up?"

Well, in Goliath's case, it would be more like a 3-foot distance, just to scale it.

"Your idea is that the second ligature was never actually used as a weapon, because it was found in a position, or designed in a way, where it had no restraining function. Is this right?"

That's exactly what I'm suggesting, HOTYH. The idea that the wrist ties were loosened by JB trying to resist don't hold up. She had no marks on her wrists!

As for what the coroner saw, he didn't say one way or the other. It's up to the prosecutors to make a case.

 

[rashomon]

Your idea is that the second ligature was never actually used as a weapon, because it was found in a position, or designed in a way, where it had no restraining function. Is this right?

Correct.
One ligature was tied so loosely on top of JB's sleeve that she could have freed herself from it easily had she been alive. All she needed was tug a little at the sleeve and it would have slipped out from under the ligature, making room for her wrists to slip out too. No kidnapper would have tied a wrist ligature on top of the victim's sleeve.

Another main flaw with the wrist ligatures in the crime scene is that there was so much space of rope - 15 1/2 inches (!) - between them. A kidnapper tying a person's hands wants to avoid that the hands can touch the ligature, right?
So either the hands are tied very closely together (most often behind the back, and frequently duct tape is wrapped around them additionallly), or very far apart from each other. The goal is to prevent the person from moving her hands and loosening the ligature.
And now look what was done with JonBenet: the perp left an 15-inch space of cord between the wrist ties! JonBenet could have moved her hands and untied her wrists, that's the point.
(And if David had tied Goliath that way, Goliath could have moved his hands freely too).
So we have poorly tied wrist ligatures, too much cord between the wrist ties, and duct tape placed on a dead child's mouth. All this together just screams staging to me: those ligatures were put on an unresisting, probably already dead or near-dead body.