Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week beginning Oct 27, 2014 - Trial Thread #3

[Kamille]

I also don't recall seeing that picture being reported in the press in regards to this trial.

So if they were unable to retrieve that picture from his camera or computer and they were unable to trace the youtube account and upload to him either, then that evidence may have been thrown out.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Earlier on Thursday, court heard that bystanders almost caught Magnotta dumping Jun Lin's head in a Montreal park the day after the killing.

Allard, citing Magnotta, wrote that depositing the head was "a short religious ceremony, but that he was interrupted by people and he left."

Bouthillier asked: "Did he tell you why he left?"

Allard replied: "He didn't want to be seen."

The prosecutor continued: "Why didn't he want to be seen? Because he knew it was wrong to walk around with a head?"

Allard repeated her conclusion that Magnotta knew right from wrong but was psychotic and believed Lin was a government agent sent to assassinate him.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/11/13/bystanders-nearly-caught-magnotta-dumping-lins-head-in-park

 

[Rayemonde]

Good post, Dane! :applause:

It did say in his early medical records that he felt like the psychiatric hospital was the only place that anyone cared about him, too. So he may have a touch of factitious disorder too (faking or exaggerating for attention).

 

[Rayemonde]

http://montrealgazette.com/news/que...-paranoid-schizophrenic-decade-before-killing

At an appointment in March 2003, after the doctor noted his new patient was frightened and agitated and was swearing at voices he heard in his head, Magnotta was admitted to the Scarborough General Hospital and injected with antipsychotic medication.

He stayed for 11 days but the medical file described him as anxious, restless and worried that someone was trying to paralyze him.

A week later, on March 25, he was readmitted for another two weeks and told hospital staff that he felt “all alone in the world” and the hospital was the “only place where people actually care about him.”

 

[Kamille]

Good post, Dane! :applause:

It did say in his early medical records that he felt like the psychiatric hospital was the only place that anyone cared about him, too. So he may have a touch of factitious disorder too (faking or exaggerating for attention).

Let's just look at what he's experienced so far since being picked up in Berlin. He spent the first 6 days or so in a regular jail. Then he was transferred to the "5 Star" psychiatric "resort", given his own private room, left alone and got a daily appointment with a sympathetic doctor to talk about himself and his feelings.

Then he was brought to Montreal. Again put in a jail. A psychiatrist visited with him and refused to give him the meds he wanted. The psychiatrist suggested he was stable and did not need any coddling and should stay in the jail. LM, via his lawyers, was able to manipulate himself into the hospital infirmary and get himself a new female doctor who coddles him and talks to him once a week about his "feelings". I noted earlier that a Montreal police officer was put into this hospital infirmary when he was arrested for his own comfort and safety (he has no illness, mental or otherwise). So I can assume that the hospital infirmary is the preferred place to be in that institution. He even tried to seduce the male nurse in there. Mood lighting and all.

The doctor we are going to hear from today works for the mental institution for the criminally insane that he is likely aiming for, instead of a regular federal prison, so maybe we'll see a glimpse of what things are like there in his testimony. No doubt LM would prefer to be there, being coddled and questioned about his "feelings" and being "rehabilitated" for possible release back into society within months, rather than put in isolation for his own safety in federal prison for life.

Since he has admitted that he feels "cared about" in hospitals, and he does present to them on his own when he wants or needs meds or attention, I'd say he is desperate to stay in a hospital environment and manipulate the staff there rather than to be put into a prison and see a psychiatrist once in a while to renew his meds.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 9m9 minutes ago
Judge has arrived. #Magnotta trial to resume shortly. Some legal housecleaning first.

amy minsky ‏@amyminsky · 13m13 minutes ago
I won't be at the #Magnotta trial today. But it's Day 29, and the defence is set to call its next witness, another psychiatrist.

 

[Kamille]

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 6m6 minutes ago
Jury is entering the room. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 6m6 minutes ago
Back at #Magnotta trial. Day 29 starts now. #CJAD

 

[Kamille]

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 6m6 minutes ago
Dr. Joel Watts is the next witness for the defence. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 5m5 minutes ago
He is testifying in English. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 5m5 minutes ago
He is a psychiatrist who practices at Pinel Psychiatric Institute. Qualified as expert forensic psychiatrist. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Obtained licence in Que in 2009 after moving from Ontario. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Had licence in Ohio when training in Cleveland in 2008-2009. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Got equivalent in Canada after starting training in US. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee @sleeCJAD · 31s 31 seconds ago
Subspecialty forensic psychiatry: wrote US exam in 2013, passed in Oct. Cnd exam in Sept 2013. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 24s24 seconds ago
Role in training residents in training forensic psychs. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 31s32 seconds ago
Overflow room packed with students today. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Obtained BA in biomedical science, U of Guelph. U of Western Ont MD in 2003. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Residency at U of Ottawa. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
Witness went to US to study because Royal College of Physicians didn't recognize forensic psychiatry as subspecialty at the time. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Supervisor was Dr. Philip Resnick, senior forensic psych. Involved in many highly contested US trials, ie Andrea Yates case. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Also Unabomber, Jeffery Dahmer cases. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 50s50 seconds ago
What was his particular field of study, defence asks? All areas of forensic psychiatry, crim responsibility for example. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 47s48 seconds ago
Study malingering? Yes part of curriculum. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 43s44 seconds ago
Why important? Role of expert is try as objectively as possible to evaluate subject, who may not be telling truth, fake symptoms. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Switching to French which witness says he speaks and does work in, most of the time at Pinel. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 57s58 seconds ago
Witness did report on #Magnotta in English.

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 39s40 seconds ago
Where learn French? Here in Quebec. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Obtained Fellowship Cnd Academy of Psychiatry in the Law. 2007 prize, best presentation of resident. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
At Pinel since 2009. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 30s30 seconds ago
Clinical appointments: rehab unit, 8 mos. 21 patients. Majority found not crim resposible due to mental disorder. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 35s36 seconds ago
Purpose try to help treat illness, reintegrate into soceity, majority of work managing their risk. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 25s26 seconds ago
Pinel has max security for high risk patients. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Mixed unit had men & women.Witness evaluated mental illness,how manage risk,gain insight into illness,reintegrate into society. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Commission examen is like provincial criminal review board in Ontario. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
Talking about working one day a week in outpatient clinic run by Pinelt: Sexual behaviours clinic. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
How sexual fantasies affect patients' lives or patients sent there for pre sentencing for sex crimes, ie pedophilia. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Also Patients who never committed crimes before and were followed by clinic for treatment. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Four days a week in psych ward for patients found non crim responsible and one day at outpatient clinic. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Witness talks about program by Corrections Can for beds for intensive treatment for convicted sex offenders. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Witness says was responsible as team leader for psych illnesses besides sex disorders. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 56s57 seconds ago
2010 until now: witness working in program for psych intensive care. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 51s52 seconds ago
Patients referred there,some with high risk of violence. Stabilize and evaluate them, then transferred back to original hospital. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee @sleeCJAD · 41s 41 seconds ago
Some sent to be evaluated for fitness to stand trial, crim responsibility. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Court ordered assessment: witness says court may have an accused they're concerned if they're fit to stand trial, mental state. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 41s42 seconds ago
So they evaluate those patients. Usually 30 to 60 day assessment. #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 39s40 seconds ago
Watts now explaining court-ordered assessments on fitness to stand trial (takes 5 days), on criminal responsibility (30 days). #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 28s29 seconds ago
Witness did those assessments and was treating psychiatrist. #Magnotta

 

[Kamille]

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 33s34 seconds ago
Witness informs accused court sent them, asked for assessment and he'd be the one doing it. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 46s47 seconds ago
Witness informs accused info would be divulged to court. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Witness says it's confidential except can be shared with court. Not divulged to anyone else unless authorized to do so. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 38s38 seconds ago
How many did you do? At Pinel, several hundred. IN career, close to 400 forensic assessments, majority court ordered. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Others are private assessment, lawyers or employer or company asks for one. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Retained by defence for #Magnotta assessment.

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 59s60 seconds ago
Important for psych to do evaluation for defence, crown diff parties? #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 59s60 seconds ago
Witness says important to work for diff parties because maintain level expertise, credibility as neutral expert/witness. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 42s43 seconds ago
Helps prevent developing bias. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 37s37 seconds ago
Policy is never refuse case, whichever side the person is on. Open to both side, that's the way they were trained. #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 40s41 seconds ago
In #Magnotta case, Watts was hired by the defence. Lawyer points out later this month, he will be testifying for the Crown in another case.

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 43s44 seconds ago
Mandatory courses to maintain good standing/licence? #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 25s26 seconds ago
Witness says have to accumulate hours of continuing ed:scholarly work, review literature to keep up to date with psych knowledge. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 48s49 seconds ago
Witness says professional workshops deal with specific issues on risk assessment or certain risk populations. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 37s37 seconds ago
For example issues dealing with psychopath, witness took part in such a workshop. #Magnotta

 

[Kamille]

Does LeClair get paid by the hour too? Why is he so long winded and just drags out these questions? It's been over a half hour and we still haven't gotten to this case.

:gaah:

 

[Rayemonde]

I know... Can't they just hand a copy of the witness' CV to the Jury members? Why do we have to sit through a description of every conference and workshop he's ever been to...

 

[Kamille]

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
Witness on academic appointments: 2009, Aug to present day. Universite de Montreal. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
Applied to get academic standing, to be able to teach residents. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
Became assistant professor in psychiatry. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Witness became psych coordinator for residency training in 2011. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 46s47 seconds ago
Defence slipped into French for a bit. Judge reminded him. #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 2m2 minutes ago
Defence lawyer switches to French, doesn't notice. Neither did translator(for #Magnotta), neither did I. Glimpse into language issue @ trial

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 27s27 seconds ago
Five years of training to become psychiatrist after doctor training. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 48s48 seconds ago
Witness involved in getting forensic psych program started at U de Mtl. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Onto research and scholarly works. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
One article updates toxic psychosis. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Witness says it's a substance induced psychosis. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
So people who became psychotic after taking drug, had no mental illness. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Why interest to you? #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Witness says interest was in how courts interpret psychiatric knowledge or testimony. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 50s50 seconds ago
WItness says SCOC case Bouchard-Lebrun vs. R. is landmark case. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 37s38 seconds ago
Witness says helpful for them in the courts. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
Professional article not published 2014: witness did it for College of Physicians on revising practice standards re: assessments. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 2m2 minutes ago
Witness says it was to help revise standards for forensic psychiatry, if should be official title in Quebec. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Witness wrote argument why such a title should be recognized and impact of that. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Witness says Quebec is only province where it's an issue. Once Royal College recognizes title, other provinces recognize it. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 50s50 seconds ago
2012-2014: currently secretary of Cnd Academy of Psychiatry in the Law. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 24s24 seconds ago
Witness recognized as expert: Que and Ont review board, prov courts, College of Physicians. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 41s41 seconds ago
Witness says in 2012 asked to give testimony to Cnd Senate on proposed bill now law on minimum sentences for drug/sex offences. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 44s45 seconds ago
March 2010:talk witness gave on how to conduct psychopathy assessment with patients with serious mental illness ie schizophrenia. #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 34s35 seconds ago
1 hour & counting since we began going line-by-line through Dr. Watts' CV. #Magnotta defence keen 2 highlight all committees,talks, articles

:waiting:

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
May 2014: witness gave talk to psychiatrists on how go about doing forensic assessments. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Invited speaker: witness took part in conference in Sept 2011 in Vancouver. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 47s48 seconds ago
Witness talked about concept of malingering, reality of exaggeration of symptoms and deception when evaluating patients. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 32s33 seconds ago
For example, in insurance cases, people try to get benefits and need to know if people truthful in their symptoms. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 4m4 minutes ago
Jne 2013 Toronto: Witness gave talk about substance use and forensic psychiatry and assessments of patients. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 4m4 minutes ago
July 2014: witness gave talk on substance use and correctional psychiatry issues. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
For example patients already incarcerated. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 3m3 minutes ago
Break. Back in 20. #Magnotta

 

[Kamille]

Okay seriously, why isn't the Crown or judge stopping this?

I have no idea what this guy is going to say but personally I find "experts" with all those credentials don't actually do the job and have no clue. They spend most of their career trying to up their credentials and education and they have very little time with hands on experience because that's not really what they want to do. Book smart vs street smart. Book smart usually doesn't have a clue how things are applied in the real world if all they do is study the material and never try to apply it.

Maybe that is the point of LeClair's long drawn out CV exploration? To show that this guy spends more time doing lectures than hands on work with mentally ill patients?

MOO

 

[maxfactor]

Dr. Allard allowed that she may have wondered “if Mr. Lopez was part of his [Mr. Magnotta’s] delusion,” but in the end, she concluded he was a real person, albeit one the jurors haven’t seen.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...-says-psychiatrist-who-takes-his-word-for-it/

She believed him about Manny. You'd think the Crown would have been able to find Manny if he really existed and if not the fact that he fooled Dr Allard about this should have been something the Crown could have really used to their advantage, but I didn't see in the tweets where they did that. This Manny is very puzzling. MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

it's been over an hour now... :waiting:

 

[maxfactor]

If the defense is spending so much time on this it seems like he is going to say Magnotta wasn't malingering.

 

[Rayemonde]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...-says-psychiatrist-who-takes-his-word-for-it/

She believed him about Manny. You'd think the Crown would have been able to find Manny if he really existed and if not the fact that he fooled Dr Allard about this should have been something the Crown could have really used to their advantage, but I didn't see in the tweets where they did that. This Manny is very puzzling. MOO

If the Crown had shown that Manny didn't exist, it wouldn't have helped them. Allard would have just said "Psychosis!"

 

[Kamille]

If the defense is spending so much time on this it seems like he is going to say Magnotta wasn't malingering.

I don't know. If the defense liked what this doctor had to say about LM they wouldn't have hired Dr. Allard IMO.

It will be interesting.

IF WE EVER GET TO IT!! :gaah:

 

[Rayemonde]

BTW, does anyone have a theory about why LM went to the psychiatrist before killing JL? The time he was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. They recommended that he increase his antidepressant to help with his compulsive hair-pulling but didn't prescribe anything.

 

[maxfactor]

Definitely!! But I was thinking more about how credible her judgement was when it came to Magnotta, if she believed that and it wasn't true then maybe she was wrong about everything else too.