Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week beginning Oct 27, 2014 - Trial Thread #3

[Kamille]

So is that it for the doctor testimony? I can't believe that one side or the other would not have subpoenaed the original doctor who wrote the letter to the lawyer in the 2005 fraud case. That seems to be the only person who actually "diagnosed" LM with schizophrenia. None of the ones on the stand so far have been willing to actually make a diagnosis. Just saying someone is "odd, weird or creepy" isn't going to cut it IMO.

And does anyone know if the drugs that LM was seeking by telling walk in clinic doctors he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and/or BPD, can be used more like street drugs to get "high" if used incorrectly?

MOO

 

[BorgQueen]

So is that it for the doctor testimony? I can't believe that one side or the other would not have subpoenaed the original doctor who wrote the letter to the lawyer in the 2005 fraud case. That seems to be the only person who actually "diagnosed" LM with schizophrenia. None of the ones on the stand so far have been willing to actually make a diagnosis. Just saying someone is "odd, weird or creepy" isn't going to cut it IMO.

And does anyone know if the drugs that LM was seeking by telling walk in clinic doctors he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and/or BPD, can be used more like street drugs to get "high" if used incorrectly?

MOO

Which drugs were they, again? I forget :facepalm:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I highly doubt that the drugs he seemed to be asking for could be used to get high. Far too many side effects! (Look at him now! :lol: )

 

[LoyalSleuth]

all the talk of schizophrenia, is that the only mental illness that would allow for the NCR verdict?

 

[LoyalSleuth]

So is that it for the doctor testimony? I can't believe that one side or the other would not have subpoenaed the original doctor who wrote the letter to the lawyer in the 2005 fraud case. That seems to be the only person who actually "diagnosed" LM with schizophrenia. None of the ones on the stand so far have been willing to actually make a diagnosis. Just saying someone is "odd, weird or creepy" isn't going to cut it IMO.

And does anyone know if the drugs that LM was seeking by telling walk in clinic doctors he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and/or BPD, can be used more like street drugs to get "high" if used incorrectly?

MOO

as a recovering opiate addict I can say that NO, the drugs he was taking do not get you high...

However, in my experience with addiction, when a drug addict is clean without a recovery program, they may want to take mental illness meds because they are feeling depressed, anxiety or other... So the drugs don't get you high, but they can relieve the symptoms of an addict being sober with no recovery...

I am not saying that LM is a drug addict, I am speaking for the drugs addict in myself and others that I know.

 

[Kamille]

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 5m5 minutes ago
Still waiting for the lawyers and the judge to return. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 6m6 minutes ago
Discussing legal matters before the jury is brought in. #Magnotta

Shuyee Lee ‏@sleeCJAD · 1m1 minute ago
Discussion over. Lunch, back at 1:30. #Magnotta

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

all the talk of schizophrenia, is that the only mental illness that would allow for the NCR verdict?

I'm not certain about the relationship between schizophrenia and an NCR verdict - but I can tell you this: MOST schizophrenics (who commit MURDER) murder FAMILY MEMBERS!

Sorry, I have no link for my info but I've worked at Toronto's CAMH.

 

[Kamille]

as a recovering opiate addict I can say that NO, the drugs he was taking do not get you high...

However, in my experience with addiction, when a drug addict is clean without a recovery program, they may want to take mental illness meds because they are feeling depressed, anxiety or other... So the drugs don't get you high, but they can relieve the symptoms of an addict being sober with no recovery...

I am not saying that LM is a drug addict, I am speaking for the drugs addict in myself and others that I know.

Thank you so much for your response LoyalSleuth and congratulations on your amazing accomplishment!! :great:

So it does appear that LM was taking some kind of prescription drugs...or was he? Other than the Viagra and Temazepam, has anyone seen any other drugs that have come out in this trial that he was prescribed or taking after the letter to the lawyer back in 2005? I think that is where I saw the list of medications that he was supposedly taking?

The prosecution seems to be hinting at cocaine. I believe it was in the tweets yesterday that there was a record of LM being a drug user at Mount Sinai in 2011?

 

[Kamille]

all the talk of schizophrenia, is that the only mental illness that would allow for the NCR verdict?

I can't think of any personality disorder that has allowed for a NCR verdict in this country so far. I believe the few NCR verdicts that were posted here were all diagnosed as schizophrenic? There's a big difference in personality disorders vs actual mental illness it seems with regards to a person's ability to know right from wrong.

MOO

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Richard Kackar was found NCR when he drove a stolen snow plow into LE office Ryan Russell and killed him. Seems Richard is getting better now...

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2013/04/29/richard_kachkar_how_a_cop_killer_was_found_not_criminally_responsible.html

Interesting...

It’s a common misconception that anyone with a mental illness who commits a crime can claim insanity to avoid jail. Not so. You can’t just kill a neighbour and blame your depression.
Enshrined in Section 16 of our Criminal Code, the NCR defence comes with a strict legal definition that hinges on two fundamental questions. First: did the accused, in this case Kachkar, have a mental disorder at the time he committed the act?
Timing is key. Kachkar’s defence had to prove he was insane at the moment he struck Russell with the snowplow. “Not the day before or the day after,” Ontario Superior Court Justice Ian MacDonnell would say in his charge to the jury.

So for LM teh question is, was he having a mental disorder when he lured, sedated, killed, dismembered and sexually assualted JL?
I would say from what we have seen so far, NO. Was LM having a mental disorder at other times in his life, I would say yes.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

To LoyalSleuth - you have my greatest admiration. I bow to you.:great: :clap: :great:

And regarding Mount Sinai Hospital - they do have a magnificent wing for drug addicts. Street drugs.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Richard Kackar was found NCR when he drove a stolen snow plow into LE office Ryan Russell and killed him. Seems Richard is getting better now...

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/01/21/richard_kachkars_mysterious_return_to_normal_dimanno.html

Indeed. My husband and I were discussing him last night. In my humble opinion, I think/feel that RK was faking in order to attempt 'suicide by cop'. :thinking: And you're right - he received an NCR verdict.

 

[LoyalSleuth]

sorry to quote the same article again, but it has some really good info on NCR...

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight...ler_was_found_not_criminally_responsible.html
2 questions a jury must answer YES to for a NCR verdict:

In order to deliver a verdict of NCR, a jury must answer yes to the first question and yes to at least one branch of the second question, though members do not have to agree which one.

First: did the accused, in this case Kachkar, have a mental disorder at the time he committed the act?

For LM - 1. I am not a doctor, so I can't say if 100% had a mental disorder at the time of the crime. SO let's say YES to this one.

Second: did the mental illness render Kachkar either a) incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act, or b) incapable of knowing the act was wrong?

For LM - 2. to the b) part, I would say No, Mental illness did NOT render LM incapable of knowing the act was wrong. LM knew it was wrong that's why he dismembered JL, trying to hide his body and LM left the country, he knew he had murdered and that it was illegal.

So using this as reference, even though we may get a YES to the first question, the second part has to be a yes too for NCR. I really hope this is made CRYSTAL CLEAR to the jury... It takes 2 yes's for NCR.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from LoyalSleuth:

So using this as reference, even though we may get a YES to the first question, the second part has to be a yes too for NCR. I really hope this is made CRYSTAL CLEAR to the jury... It takes 2 yes's for NCR.

:tyou: My heart just sinks at the thought of LM getting an NCR verdict!!:scared:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

OK, let's look at the plain and simple facts:

FACT - he took JL to his apartment
FACT - toxicology found TEMAZEPAM in JL's system
FACT - LM video-taped the killing/etc.
FACT - body parts were mailed all over our country by LM
FACT - LM planned a trip to Paris and then on to Berlin as an escape
FACT - it took Interpol to finally locate him

How can any jury on earth ignore these facts?

 

[Kamille]

Well I hope the Guy Turcotte trial fiasco is fresh on the minds of the jurors...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...-retried-for-killing-his-2-children-1.2579762

It's a pretty big deal to make that determination. And you don't want to get it wrong. Just because a crime is heinous and not something the average person could consider a sane person capable of, doesn't mean it can't happen. And does...way too often. It's a slippery slope to assume that all "over the top" heinous murders are only committed by people who are not aware of what they were doing. We have to get used to the fact that some people just enjoy it and have justified it to themselves. Sure they likely have a mental disorder to want to do it, but not one that inhibits them from knowing it is not acceptable and is quite illegal.

Also glad the NCR Reform Act was generated, likely as a result of that trial, for better measures to protect the public and the victims from these individuals when they are found NCR.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=867529

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

all the talk of schizophrenia, is that the only mental illness that would allow for the NCR verdict?

No, the defence are claiming he was psychotic, and bipolar disorder and severe depression can also cause psychosis. Borderline Personality Disorder can cause short-lived psychosis too. LM's gp testified that LM also has bipolar disorder and was hospitalised a couple of time prior to 2005 for manic episodes.
The prosecution are saying that LM was treated for substance abuse too, which can obviously cause psychosis. So can alcoholism, brain tumours and delirium.

However, the symptoms we have heard the doctors describe LM as having are pretty 'classic' schizophrenia symptoms - persecutory delusions, paranoia, thought broadcasting, thought removal, flat affect, hearing voices etc.

 

[Rayemonde]

I'm not certain about the relationship between schizophrenia and an NCR verdict - but I can tell you this: MOST schizophrenics (who commit MURDER) murder FAMILY MEMBERS!

Sorry, I have no link for my info but I've worked at Toronto's CAMH.

True but I believe this is because they usually live with family, so then family are there at the time. I think LM's family had wisely decided to have nothing to do with him - even granny hangs up the phone on poor Kluka now

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Well I hope the Guy Turcotte trial fiasco is fresh on the minds of the jurors...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...-retried-for-killing-his-2-children-1.2579762

It's a pretty big deal to make that determination. And you don't want to get it wrong. Just because a crime is heinous and not something the average person could consider a sane person capable of, doesn't mean it can't happen. And does...way too often. It's a slippery slope to assume that all "over the top" heinous murders are only committed by people who are not aware of what they were doing. We have to get used to the fact that some people just enjoy it and have justified it to themselves. Sure they likely have a mental disorder to want to do it, but not one that inhibits them from knowing it is not acceptable and is quite illegal.

Also glad the NCR Reform Act was generated, likely as a result of that trial, for better measures to protect the public and the victims from these individuals when they are found NCR.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=867529

MOO

BBM -exactly! That is what I think of LM. Simialr to PB, KH, etc... They are bat **** crazy, and did unspeakable things to other humans, but I think they weren't crazy enough to know it wasn't wrong.

 

[Rayemonde]

The jury doesn't just have to find that he was psychotic at the time of the murder. Eg if LM hallucinated that JL was laughing at his monkey walk and that's why he killed him, that would still be murder and he would still be CR.