Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week beginning Oct 27, 2014 - Trial Thread #3

[maxfactor]

You miss so much when you only get tweets!! Here is Christie Blatchford's article about today's witnesses. IMO, Blatchford is usually very accurate with her reporting, just thinking back to the trial of MR, when all was said and done she was spot on with everything.

It was a remarkably unequivocal diagnosis, given that Dr. Allard also appeared to say that Mr. Magnotta met the two-pronged legal criteria for mental wellness.

In other words, she said, he was capable of appreciating what’s called the “nature and quality” of his acts (meaning, she said, that he understood the “material reality” of what he was doing when he killed Mr. Lin and cut up his body) and also that, as “a man of normal intellect” with the general knowledge of what is right and wrong, “He knew it was wrong.”

What is interesting is that even in the early exploration of the file before the jurors, while Mr. Magnotta was first suspected of suffering from schizophrenia as a teenager (the age when the disease often “breaks out&#8221, he was also simultaneously suspected of being a malinger, or of faking symptoms.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ling-but-knew-it-was-wrong-psychiatrist-says/

So it will be up to the jury to decide if he was malingering. I've already made up my mind.

 

[Kamille]

You miss so much when you only get tweets!! Here is Christie Blatchford's article about today's witnesses. IMO, Blatchford is usually very accurate with her reporting, just thinking back to the trial of MR, when all was said and done she was spot on with everything.



http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ling-but-knew-it-was-wrong-psychiatrist-says/

So it will be up to the jury to decide if he was malingering. I've already made up my mind.

Let's hope the jury can cut through all the carp too. Especially without benefit of what his online followers and sleuths know about him.

Pretty convenient that no one can seem to find that note to the nurse. Would be interesting to compare it to the smut that some mysterious dude wrote to the London reporter.

Was that the first the prosecution had heard of it? Again I ask, was there no opportunity for the prosecution to get their own expert psychiatrist to look over his records and speak with him in prison? I don't get it. :waitasec:

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Don't tell me you've never seen 'Daddy Mugs F**** Justin 2' ?
hwow:

Was that a sequel? :floorlaugh:

 

[Rayemonde]

Dr Marie-Frederique Allard also testified at trials of François Tartamella, Francis Proulx, Irina Mysliakovskaia, Tobby Carrier, Dominique Henri, Bruno Marier, Michel Lizotte, Cathie Gauthier-Lachance, ,

Also, the name of the home LM lived in as a young man was Harrison House

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

QUESTION:

Does the jury KNOW that Allard was paid to testify?

:thinking:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

In case you missed it - no court on Friday 7 November. Court resumes on Monday 10 November, 2014.

 

[andreww]

IMO the prosecution isn't doing enough to prove LMs was of sound mind when the crime was committed. Every doctor that has been called seems to be of the opinion that he suffered from extreme mental illness. The prosecution seemed to present the facts well enough, and LMs efforts to dispose of evidence and flee definitely do show that he might have been aware of the consequences of the crime, but at the same time you have him posting the video for the world to see, he travels using his real name and he leaves identification in the Paris hotel room. It really does not seem like he is making a huge effort to allude police.

MOO, but I'm leaning towards NCR.


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[Kamille]

IMO the prosecution isn't doing enough to prove LMs was of sound mind when the crime was committed. Every doctor that has been called seems to be of the opinion that he suffered from extreme mental illness. The prosecution seemed to present the facts well enough, and LMs efforts to dispose of evidence and flee definitely do show that he might have been aware of the consequences of the crime, but at the same time you have him posting the video for the world to see, he travels using his real name and he leaves identification in the Paris hotel room. It really does not seem like he is making a huge effort to allude police.

MOO, but I'm leaning towards NCR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We haven't had a chance yet to see how the Crown cross examines this "expert" witness so I'm not considering her diagnosis as solid just yet.

There seem to be a few things missing here. Like when was she contacted by the defense team to perform this evaluation? When did the prosecution learn that LM was going with the NCR defense? How much time did they have to prepare for this? What access did they have to LM while he was incarcerated, other than the files of the doctors who were treating him and being paid by the institution? Which, as we've seen, are wishy washy and don't really indicate anything either way. The first male doctor didn't seem to think he was that ill at all and the second female one appears to be coddling him and believes absolutely everything he says. Then we've got previous records that indicate other doctors thought he was "malingering" for secondary gain. And it appears that everyone needs LM's authorization to talk about his medical records so how much authorization did the prosecution get to examine him, if any? If the NCR defense was not announced until the day the trial started, why would the prosecution have fought for their own expert witness to examine him during previous motions? Although they should have been pre-emptive and someone made a bad call if they decided not to bother trying.

The Crown has a three day weekend to brush up on everything this doctor has said and to come at her hard. Including the fact that she is a paid witness. They can question her about every premeditated aspect of this crime and how that fits in with her "diagnosis" and let's hope they do. Not to mention all the behaviours after the crime. Because IMO, there is just absolutely no way she can state that LM was in a psychosis at the time of that murder when he wasn't picked up until almost two weeks after it. Cool as a cucumber and well aware that Interpol was looking for him. She has absolutely nothing to go on other than video tape surveillance of him before and after and the actual murder video which does not really show his face or expression during the crime. No sound bites at all to indicate what he was thinking or feeling at the time. I think it's a big stretch for her to unequivocally state this when not one other non paid "expert" doctor was willing to lock into that claim. I don't think any of them were really willing to lock into a 100 percent paranoid schizophrenic diagnosis. I think they all question a lot with LM and whether he is playing them.

As far as using his own passport, he truly didn't have an option. You just can't expect to fly out of this country undetected trying to use a fake passport. Although apparently he did have one in his possession. And if anyone had a reason to get out of the country pronto, it was him. Getting stopped with a fake passport would have been the worst possible thing for someone fleeing a murder scene. No one was looking for him at the time he used his passport. And of course he knew that police would know where he flew to. Which is why he left his own ID in one Paris hotel room while staying in another until he could eventually find a place to stay in Germany. He used his fake ID/passport to get there. Leaving his own in Paris was an attempt to make LE believe he was still there and in hiding. He was also following the manhunt on the internet and knew he was being tracked with the recently acquired cell phone and ditched that in Paris too.

Pretty clever for someone deep in a psychosis if you ask me.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

QUESTION:

Does the jury KNOW that Allard was paid to testify?

:thinking:

Pretty sure if they don't yet, they will by the time the prosecution is done with the cross examination.

MOO

 

[Little Jedi]

We haven't had a chance yet to see how the Crown cross examines this "expert" witness so I'm not considering her diagnosis as solid just yet.

There seem to be a few things missing here. Like when was she contacted by the defense team to perform this evaluation? When did the prosecution learn that LM was going with the NCR defense? How much time did they have to prepare for this? What access did they have to LM while he was incarcerated, other than the files of the doctors who were treating him and being paid by the institution? Which, as we've seen, are wishy washy and don't really indicate anything either way. The first male doctor didn't seem to think he was that ill at all and the second female one appears to be coddling him and believes absolutely everything he says. Then we've got previous records that indicate other doctors thought he was "malingering" for secondary gain. And it appears that everyone needs LM's authorization to talk about his medical records so how much authorization did the prosecution get to examine him, if any? If the NCR defense was not announced until the day the trial started, why would the prosecution have fought for their own expert witness to examine him during previous motions? Although they should have been pre-emptive and someone made a bad call if they decided not to bother trying.

The Crown has a three day weekend to brush up on everything this doctor has said and to come at her hard. Including the fact that she is a paid witness. They can question her about every premeditated aspect of this crime and how that fits in with her "diagnosis" and let's hope they do. Not to mention all the behaviours after the crime. Because IMO, there is just absolutely no way she can state that LM was in a psychosis at the time of that murder when he wasn't picked up until almost two weeks after it. Cool as a cucumber and well aware that Interpol was looking for him. She has absolutely nothing to go on other than video tape surveillance of him before and after and the actual murder video which does not really show his face or expression during the crime. No sound bites at all to indicate what he was thinking or feeling at the time. I think it's a big stretch for her to unequivocally state this when not one other non paid "expert" doctor was willing to lock into that claim. I don't think any of them were really willing to lock into a 100 percent paranoid schizophrenic diagnosis. I think they all question a lot with LM and whether he is playing them.

As far as using his own passport, he truly didn't have an option. You just can't expect to fly out of this country undetected trying to use a fake passport. Although apparently he did have one in his possession. And if anyone had a reason to get out of the country pronto, it was him. Getting stopped with a fake passport would have been the worst possible thing for someone fleeing a murder scene. No one was looking for him at the time he used his passport. And of course he knew that police would know where he flew to. Which is why he left his own ID in one Paris hotel room while staying in another until he could eventually find a place to stay in Germany. He used his fake ID/passport to get there. Leaving his own in Paris was an attempt to make LE believe he was still there and in hiding. He was also following the manhunt on the internet and knew he was being tracked with the recently acquired cell phone and ditched that in Paris too.

Pretty clever for someone deep in a psychosis if you ask me.

MOO

:goodpost: :clap: Some excellent points here Kamille.

Yeah he HAD TO use his own passport to both leave Canada & enter Europe.
No-one was looking for him at this point !!

~ Remember this/he was discovered initially because the trash wasn't collected when expected. ~

The booking into TWO hotels & the fact he already had FALSE I.D. as well as making his 'connections' for people to meet in both Paris & Berlin ~ maybe even had others pre-arranged but didn't get the chance ~

Also it was said he was looking-up more fake I.D.'s in the cafe where he was caught. So as he was busy following the news about himself he knew he was now 'WANTED' Internationally & preparing yet another change of identity.

 

[andreww]

I understand all that, but wouldn't the logical place to start using the fake passport be when leaving Montreal? Magnotta at one point had posted a document on his website on how to disappear. The detailed essay stressed that your true identity needed to be disposed of completely. Then travel to a different city via bus or train, requiring no ID. Then leave the country using fake docs. He obviously planned his escape to a certain extent, yet he did not follow through with the details that he was obviously aware of.

I believe he has resigned himself to being caught. He was on one last fling. He wasn't covering his footsteps, he'd stopped disguising himself and he was doing nothing to conserve dwindling funds. This want a permeate escape, he was just delaying the inevitable.


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[Kamille]

Dr Marie-Frederique Allard also testified at trials of François Tartamella, Francis Proulx, Irina Mysliakovskaia, Tobby Carrier, Dominique Henri, Bruno Marier, Michel Lizotte, Cathie Gauthier-Lachance, ,

Also, the name of the home LM lived in as a young man was Harrison House

So once he got a diagnosis from either a hospital or his father's doctor, he was able to apply to live on his own at this facility? It's in Lindsay so I assume this was during the time he was living in Peterborough. Is there some indication that his family was unable or unwilling to accommodate him? Or was this his first attempt at getting out on his own by using his mental illness diagnosis for "secondary gain"?

http://www.cmhahkpr.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Harrison-House-2014-Print-Version.pdf

 

[Kamille]

I understand all that, but wouldn't the logical place to start using the fake passport be when leaving Montreal? Magnotta at one point had posted a document on his website on how to disappear. The detailed essay stressed that your true identity needed to be disposed of completely. Then travel to a different city via bus or train, requiring no ID. Then leave the country using fake docs. He obviously planned his escape to a certain extent, yet he did not follow through with the details that he was obviously aware of.

I believe he has resigned himself to being caught. He was on one last fling. He wasn't covering his footsteps, he'd stopped disguising himself and he was doing nothing to conserve dwindling funds. This want a permeate escape, he was just delaying the inevitable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The false ID that he had was internet purchased and would in no way survive the scrutiny of a major airport, let alone two. It did, however, survive the scrutiny of the train ride from Paris to Berlin. So he did leave the country with fake documents. It just wasn't Canada, it was France. He had no choice but to use his real identity to get there. But by getting there, he was free to blend into the vast reaches of Europe with fake ID. He could never have done that staying in Canada and he knew it. When he got to Berlin, he had disposed of his Canadian identity entirely, just as the "essay" indicated. I also understand the essay was not his but other's can probably fill you in on that.

When he ditched the wig, he was negotiating with FR to stay with him and that wasn't a big deal since he knew Interpol would eventually get surveillance and witness statements of him in the wig. So why did he lie to FR and say he cut his hair? Why didn't he just tell him he was wearing a wig because he liked that look but would remove it if it bothered FR? Because he was hiding his identity, right from the moment he took JL to his apartment (actually I believe he was hiding in that wig the entire time he lived in that apartment since LE were looking for him regarding the cat videos) until the moment he got to Frank's place in Berlin. And the picture Interpol were using looked nothing like what he looked like in the picture Frank Rubert had so ditching the wig was actually making him look less like who they were looking for. Except the expression and the dead eyes and apparently the cheekbones. I'm sure he didn't realize just how distinctive he could be more on personality than on looks. There were pictures and videos of him all over the internet, that he put there. That was his downfall.

Christie Blatchford had a great article about his behaviour with Frank while he was in Berlin and the money issue. He was likely going to use sex to entice FR to keep him around and help him hide out but when it became apparent he was not FR's type, he went to plan B, flash the money.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ay-romeo-what-he-got-was-luka-rocco-magnotta/

He was always resourceful and seemed to have a never ending supply of cash for someone who didn't really work so blowing through money probably also wasn't a big deal for him. He also appeared to be frugal since he actually returned four mailing boxes because they were too small to fit the body parts in. And it appeared he lived pretty frugally and didn't really own anything of value other than his computers. Actually they never did find out what accounts he was pulling money from with 3 different cards while he was in Paris which was another issue I had with the investigation. But unfortunately Canadian LE had to work with LE from two other European countries and apparently they didn't really want to deal with this problem once he was out of their country. I still think it was important for LE to get all his banking information in to the trial and I'm not sure they investigated that thoroughly. Or perhaps they did and his legal counsel was able to successfully have that evidence left out of the trial. Whenever there are strange, unanswered questions left looming in a trial, you can almost bet that the information that seems to be missing has been argued out of evidence by the defense.

There may be accounts in fake names at Canadian institutions with who knows how much cash in them. I wonder if he was still pulling from the Ontario Disability program as well as what he was making from his escort services. We know he was still escorting as little as a week or two before the murder as we've heard from one of his clients. Although I'm sure that was an all cash business.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Defence psychiatrist and expert witness Marie Frederique-Allard doesn't have a very good success rate - here are some cases I've found where she testified for the defence in NCR cases. However, in most if not all of these cases the Crown had their own expert psychiatric witnesses who disagreed with Allard's opinion.

Irina Mysliakovskaia - killed someone whilst driving drunk. Allerd diagnosed bipolar disorder - a manic episode triggered by antidepressants. Found guilty.
http://translate.google.com/transla...non-responsabilite-criminelle.php&prev=search

Tobby Carrier - found guilty of second degree murder for killing his brother and attempted murder of his parents.

Allard diagnosed Carrier with long-term depression and borderline personality disorder — a condition often brought on by childhood trauma. She said Carrier's description of "feeling his body stab his family without being able to stop it" is consistent with a dissociative episode.
Allard said in that state, Carrier did not have the capacity to form intent to stab his parents or to kill his brother.
After Carrier fled the house that night, he testified that he told his friends he had tried to kill his family on purpose, in order to prove that he was tough enough to do it. Allard said at that point Carrier was still not able to think rationally.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...issociative-state-psychiatrist-says-1.1325320

Dominique Henri - killed his teacher and the teacher's wife. Allerd diagnosed schizophrenia. I THINK he was found not guilty/ NCR, I'm using google translate and can't find many articles about this so I'm not certain.

When he killed his former English teacher, who was obsessed, and her husband, Dominique Henri suffered from paranoid psychosis. In his delirium, he thought himself obliged to do so to save his skin, according his psychiatrist.

http://translate.google.com/transla...php?page=actu&type=skr&news=18922&prev=search

Bruno Marier - stabbed his ex-wife, charged with attempted murder. Allerd diagnosed dissociative amnesia. Found guilty despite her testimony.
http://translate.google.com/transla...php?page=actu&type=skr&news=18922&prev=search
http://translate.google.com/transla...pable-de-tentative-de-meurtre.php&prev=search

Cathie Gauthier-Lachance - killed her three children. Allerd diagnosed dissociative amnesia. Found guilty of murder, sentenced to LWOP.
http://translate.google.com/transla...ces-cathie-gauthier-vendred.shtml&prev=search
http://translate.google.com/transla...ces-cathie-gauthier-vendred.shtml&prev=search

Michel Lizotte - killed a couple whilst drunk driving. Allerd diagnosed major depression. Found guilty of manslaughter.
http://translate.google.com/transla...3A-Michel-Lizotte-se-dit-desole/1&prev=search

Francis Proulx - raped and killed Nancy Michaud. Allerd diagnosed bipolar disorder - a manic episode triggered by antidepressants. Found guilty of first-degree murder

According to Dr. Allard, Proulx knew "in theory" that what he did was wrong, but "in practice, he was unable to stop.". . .
The psychiatrist argued that for the same reasons, Proulx could not premeditate the murder of a mother of 37, or the rape of her body. And even if Proulx took precautions to avoid being recognized his victim (hooded and dressed with his "habit of James Bond") and lied to the police not to get caught.

http://translate.google.com/transla...ca/cgi-bin/imprimer.cgi?id=486482&prev=search

François Tartamella - Allard diagnosed psychosis and dissociation at the time of the killing. Found guilty of murder.
http://translate.google.com/transla...-deliberations-du-jury-ont-debute&prev=search

 

[Rayemonde]

So once he got a diagnosis from either a hospital or his father's doctor, he was able to apply to live on his own at this facility? It's in Lindsay so I assume this was during the time he was living in Peterborough. Is there some indication that his family was unable or unwilling to accommodate him? Or was this his first attempt at getting out on his own by using his mental illness diagnosis for "secondary gain"?

http://www.cmhahkpr.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Harrison-House-2014-Print-Version.pdf

It's not a hotel I doubt that he wanted to live there - his parents probably kicked him out. The place only has 8 beds so I'm sure they don't allow just anyone to live there because they feel like it. It sounds like a half-way house for vulnerable people being discharged from a psychiatric hospital with no where to go, so they don't end up on the streets.

 

[Rayemonde]

In 1988 my mother was part of the CMHA in Lindsay, Ontario. Specifically she was helping set up a place called Harrison House, a half-way home for people with psychiatric backgrounds. Predictably, the neighbours didn’t like the idea of crazy inmates living next door to them. One person presenting against the place actually said that when we were in the public meetings. I helped write the policy manual for that place: merging two documents and creating a new operations manual. Needless to say, the house went through but not after a lot of needless back and forth about how safety was going to be the major priority.

Not health of the community, not helping the residents get better and getting back into the world, but how they were not going to be a danger to others. That is a concrete example of stigma and discrimination in action, and I don’t think it’s that uncommon even now in the twenty-first century.

http://flanoorpages.blogspot.com/2013/10/mental-illness-awareness-week-2013-are.html

 

[Kamille]

It's not a hotel I doubt that he wanted to live there - his parents probably kicked him out. The place only has 8 beds so I'm sure they don't allow just anyone to live there because they feel like it. It sounds like a half-way house for vulnerable people being discharged from a psychiatric hospital with no where to go, so they don't end up on the streets.

BBM

:floorlaugh:

I doubt very much his family would have kicked him out. But based on stories of his upbringing, it's entirely possible that he thought he needed to get out for his own mental health. Even his doctor might have thought that.

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer....tta-a-ticking-time-bomb-peterborough-relative

Remember, he called Peterborough 4 times before he fled, after the murder. Who did he call? Where is this testimony? If it doesn't show up, that's just another thing the defense was able to keep out IMO.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Defence psychiatrist and expert witness Marie Frederique-Allard doesn't have a very good success rate - here are some cases I've found where she testified for the defence in NCR cases. However, in most if not all of these cases the Crown had their own expert psychiatric witnesses who disagreed with Allard's opinion.

Irina Mysliakovskaia - killed someone whilst driving drunk. Allerd diagnosed bipolar disorder - a manic episode triggered by antidepressants. Found guilty.
http://translate.google.com/transla...non-responsabilite-criminelle.php&prev=search

Tobby Carrier - found guilty of second degree murder for killing his brother and attempted murder of his parents.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...issociative-state-psychiatrist-says-1.1325320

Dominique Henri - killed his teacher and the teacher's wife. Allerd diagnosed schizophrenia. I THINK he was found not guilty/ NCR, I'm using google translate and can't find many articles about this so I'm not certain.

http://translate.google.com/transla...php?page=actu&type=skr&news=18922&prev=search

Bruno Marier - stabbed his ex-wife, charged with attempted murder. Allerd diagnosed dissociative amnesia. Found guilty despite her testimony.
http://translate.google.com/transla...php?page=actu&type=skr&news=18922&prev=search
http://translate.google.com/transla...pable-de-tentative-de-meurtre.php&prev=search

Cathie Gauthier-Lachance - killed her three children. Allerd diagnosed dissociative amnesia. Found guilty of murder, sentenced to LWOP.
http://translate.google.com/transla...ces-cathie-gauthier-vendred.shtml&prev=search
http://translate.google.com/transla...ces-cathie-gauthier-vendred.shtml&prev=search

Michel Lizotte - killed a couple whilst drunk driving. Allerd diagnosed major depression. Found guilty of manslaughter.
http://translate.google.com/transla...3A-Michel-Lizotte-se-dit-desole/1&prev=search

Francis Proulx - raped and killed Nancy Michaud. Allerd diagnosed bipolar disorder - a manic episode triggered by antidepressants. Found guilty of first-degree murder

http://translate.google.com/transla...ca/cgi-bin/imprimer.cgi?id=486482&prev=search

François Tartamella - Allard diagnosed psychosis and dissociation at the time of the killing. Found guilty of murder.
http://translate.google.com/transla...-deliberations-du-jury-ont-debute&prev=search

Wow...she really is an unethical paid gun isn't she?

MOO

 

[Little Jedi]

I understand all that, but wouldn't the logical place to start using the fake passport be when leaving Montreal? Magnotta at one point had posted a document on his website on how to disappear. The detailed essay stressed that your true identity needed to be disposed of completely. Then travel to a different city via bus or train, requiring no ID. Then leave the country using fake docs. He obviously planned his escape to a certain extent, yet he did not follow through with the details that he was obviously aware of.

I believe he has resigned himself to being caught. He was on one last fling. He wasn't covering his footsteps, he'd stopped disguising himself and he was doing nothing to conserve dwindling funds. This want a permeate escape, he was just delaying the inevitapatalk

But isn't that exactly what he did do ? :thinking:

There is no way he could have risked passing through TWO major airports using a fake passport. *

So this part of his plan now begins in Paris where he gets rid of his own ID & starts using a false one to leave for Berlin by bus.

From his blog:

Luka Magnotta: How to Completely Disappear and Never Be Found

Now get rid of this set of identification . Place your second set of identification in your wallet.

There is now nothing to tie you to your old life.

Get on a bus and ride it to your destination. Do not fly there directly, as airlines keep much more thorough records than bus lines.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/blog/2957

* His blog was just copied from Doug Richmonds 1996 book 'How to Disappear Completely and Never Be Found'.
Obviously written before 9/11

 

[Kamille]

Stumbled on this blog while looking for something. I'm sure you guys are all up to speed on all of this but I wasn't. Still haven't even looked at the links. I guess there are a number of blogs out there with all this info.

http://lukatrial.com/hello-world/