Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week beginning Oct 27, 2014 - Trial Thread #3

[Kamille]

Article by Rosie DiManno for The Star seems to indicate that the prosecution will likely bring in their own forensic psychiatrists during rebuttal. The whole article is interesting.


“Mr. Magnotta was in a psychosis on May 25, 2012,” Allard told court. “He knew what he was doing but he didn’t know it was wrong because his perceptions were off.”

He was assuredly living in the real world, but that reality was psychotically skewed. He knew right from wrong but was incapable of applying that knowledge in the moment — in the hours — because, to use Allard’s term, the schizophrenia was “prevailing”.

And, here was the money-shot so to speak for the defence: “The illness is responsible for the five crimes on the indictment.”

Jurors can accept or reject this conclusion. The prosecution will rebut later on with forensic psychiatrists of its own, which is inevitably what occurs — tit-for-tat medical expertise — in these legal circumstances.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...tta_tried_to_seduce_prison_nurse_dimanno.html

 

[Rayemonde]

Good!! I think the only way LM will be found NCR is if the crown does NOT provide its own expert witness. If they provide one, I think he's definitely going to be found guilty. From Allerd's past cases it seems like juries don't find her very convincing.

The Crown obviously have further information about LM's past, eg. Cocaine use and hospitalisations due to substance abuse (presumably for.cocaine addiction?) and hopefully their expert will be able to talk about that and give further details.

 

[Kamille]

Good!! I think the only way LM will be found NCR is if the crown does NOT provide its own expert witness. If they provide one, I think he's definitely going to be found guilty. From Allerd's past cases it seems like juries don't find her very convincing.

The Crown obviously have further information about LM's past, eg. Cocaine use and hospitalisations due to substance abuse (presumably for.cocaine addiction?) and hopefully their expert will be able to talk about that and give further details.

Well it makes more sense for the Crown to bring in their experts during a rebuttal than to address LM's mental issues in their case in chief. So during rebuttal, they can only bring in evidence regarding his medical history and experts of their own to rebut the defense's experts. They can't introduce any new evidence that the defense hasn't already discussed.

At least that's how I think it's done. :waitasec:

MOO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I'm confused (nothing new there! :blushing. So when the Crown brings in their own expert witnesses to testify about LM's mental health - how do they do that without examining LM themselves? Or, do they rely on the diagnoses of the other experts? And if that's the case, how can they honestly rely on what they've read/been told?

:dunno:

 

[Rayemonde]

I still think he may well have schizophrenia, but even if he does I don't think it was a factor in the murder. What we've heard about his behaviour when psychotic - anxious, fearful, paranoid, confused etc - does NOT fit in with his behaviour before and directly after the murder. If he does have schizophrenia, he's using it as an excuse IMO. And if he really does have schizophrenia, he may still exaggerate his symptoms and fake episodes when it suits him. Who would be better at faking psychosis than someone who has actually experienced it in the past?

This crime had nothing to do with schizophrenia and everything to do with narcissism and attention-seeking IMO.

 

[Kamille]

I'm confused (nothing new there! :blushing. So when the Crown brings in their own expert witnesses to testify about LM's mental health - how do they do that without examining LM themselves? Or, do they rely on the diagnoses of the other experts? And if that's the case, how can they honestly rely on what they've read/been told?

:dunno:

Not sure if they've been allowed to have an expert of their own examine LM. But they can certainly do everything else, including studying the events around the crime instead of dwelling on past history which is pretty sketchy and you can bet they'll point that out.

I haven't seen one reporter who is sympathetic to LM after listening to testimony but I admit I don't try to read the stories in the French press and the reporters may either be cynical or reporting in a way that engages the majority. Because I think the majority in this country believe he is guilty of first degree murder and are very wary of the NCR defense.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I still think he may well have schizophrenia, but even if he does I don't think it was a factor in the murder. What we've heard about his behaviour when psychotic - anxious, fearful, paranoid, confused etc - does NOT fit in with his behaviour before and directly after the murder. If he does have schizophrenia, he's using it as an excuse IMO. And if he really does have schizophrenia, he may still exaggerate his symptoms and fake episodes when it suits him. Who would be better at faking psychosis than someone who has actually experienced it in the past?

This crime had nothing to do with schizophrenia and everything to do with narcissism and attention-seeking IMO.

Very well said. :clap:

 

[Kamille]

What we haven't seen as evidence, however, is one person who can back up the anxious, fearful, paranoid and confused LM, while he's having an "episode", who is not a German doctor who was the first to see him after he got caught. I haven't seen anyone who claims to know him say they witnessed any of this behavior. Including the two gentlemen he spent time with after the murder, the post office employees, airport personnel, people in his building who saw him...anyone. Most people say he's a sweet gentle young man who could never do this. Except for maybe his victim in 2005 and his transsexual "friend" Barbie Swallows? Other people who just met him, like the reporters he had business with, said he's weird, strange, bizzarre etc, but I bet they'd say that about Barbie Swallows too.

He was an effeminate gay man trying to find his place in the world in a rural "redneck" type community while being raised by a mother with OCD and a domineering grandmother. While also occasionally living with his schizophrenic father and schizophrenic stepmother. That had to have left a mark on his psyche whether or not he actually inherited actual mental illness and didn't develop a personality disorder instead. Hard to say, when he's considered the strangest case any of these doctors have ever seen. I personally think a lot of it is put on for "secondary gain". The attention he so desperately craves is his secondary gain IMO.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

I dunno, I've read a few interviews with old friends of his where they've said he was a nervy, anxious kind of guy. Like Minakakis, who he got into trouble for fraud with in 2005.

“He just seemed so scared, so unstable, when it came to anybody. Say, ‘Boo,’ he would jump, you know what I mean?
“Somewhere down the line, he must have got real twisted.”

I'm having a hard time believing that he's been faking schizophrenia since he was 19 for attention, but failed to post about it on the internet or tell anyone about it except his doctors (none of his exes have mentioned that he claimed to have schizophrenia or hear voices). If he was faking it for attention, wouldn't he tell everyone about it? He'd be applying to go on reality TV shows about schizophrenia and stuff like that, not being secretive about it.

And I don't think he would take the schizophrenia drugs, with their awful side-effects, if he didn't really have schizophrenia or something similar. In 2005 he was on two antipsychotics and a drug to combat their side-effects, so I believe he WAS taking the drugs and having side-effects. There are much easier and less unpleasant things to fake having if you want attention and sympathy.

Plus he's so strange, I think there is clearly something wrong with him and the doctors have apparently diagnosed schizophrenia and not asperger's or anything like that. There is something wrong with him that goes beyond a personality disorder IMO. But I think he probably has some personality disorders as well, which is why some of the doctors are apparently puzzled by him.

 

[Rayemonde]

btw, if he's been faking schizophrenia for attention i believe that would be classed as Munchausen's syndrome not malingering, and Munchausen's is a mental illness in its own right. But faking schizophrenia for benefit money or to get out of trouble would be classed as malingering. Of course, he may well do both.

 

[Kamille]

I dunno, I've read a few interviews with old friends of his where they've said he was a nervy, anxious kind of guy. Like Minakakis, who he got into trouble for fraud with in 2005.

“He just seemed so scared, so unstable, when it came to anybody. Say, ‘Boo,’ he would jump, you know what I mean?
“Somewhere down the line, he must have got real twisted.”

I'm having a hard time believing that he's been faking schizophrenia since he was 19 for attention, but failed to post about it on the internet or tell anyone about it except his doctors (none of his exes have mentioned that he claimed to have schizophrenia or hear voices). If he was faking it for attention, wouldn't he tell everyone about it? He'd be applying to go on reality TV shows about schizophrenia and stuff like that, not being secretive about it.

And I don't think he would take the schizophrenia drugs, with their awful side-effects, if he didn't really have schizophrenia or something similar. In 2005 he was on two antipsychotics and a drug to combat their side-effects, so I believe he WAS taking the drugs and having side-effects. There are much easier and less unpleasant things to fake having if you want attention and sympathy.

Plus he's so strange, I think there is clearly something wrong with him and the doctors have apparently diagnosed schizophrenia and not asperger's or anything like that. There is something wrong with him that goes beyond a personality disorder IMO. But I think he probably has some personality disorders as well, which is why some of the doctors are apparently puzzled by him.

Oh I hear you Rayemonde. There's definitely something not right about him. He had been on a mission to kill to shock and awe the "fans" he believed he had amassed for some time. Does he have Schizophrenia? Maybe, but definitely combined with some other disorder(s) IMO also. And throw in some malingering on the side. No wonder he's such a "difficult" read. :notgood:

At this point I don't really care as long as he is held accountable for what he did. Apparently that was something that was seriously lacking in his upbringing as well. And so far I haven't seen anything to suggest he didn't know what he was doing when he killed JL other than the testimony of a paid expert with a reputation as being nothing more than a hired gun who'll "find" a diagnosis whenever one is required.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Totally agree. iirc, a male psychiatrist in the prison sorted LM's meds out and then discharged him - presumably he thought LM had schizophrenia, that the drugs were working and that LM was just being manipulative and attention-seeking when he insisted that he still needed to see the psychiatrist regularly. I also thought it strange that LM apparently wanted to stay on a drug that caused Parkinson's-like symptoms as a side-effect, but the doctors wouldn't let him - maybe he thought he'd get more sympathy if he was all shaky.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Hi People:

Hope it's OK, but I'm not going to ask for a new thread yet. Our discussions and the trial info is going along smoothly in this thread.

Does everyone agree? Please add a "thanks" if you agree.

:tyou:

 

[Rayemonde]

I just found a case from last year in Maryland where the defendent was found NCR due to schizophrenic psychosis after the state psychiatrist agreed with the diagnosis. So I sure hope that the prosecution in the LM case have an excellent expert witness ready to testify!
Engineering student Alexander Kinyua killed his roommate in his sleep, dismembered the body and then ate parts of it.

Cassilly [the prosecutor] said he's seen psychiatric reports from Clifton T. Perkins Hospital in both the assault and murder cases and has had an independent expert review Kinyua's mental state. He said Wednesday that "we have basically the same diagnosis" as the first report.

"To dispute the Perkins findings, I need some sort of evidence," he said. "I don't have any opinion that would dispute their findings."
. . .
At Kinyua's hearing in the city case, a judge described how his mind slowly but steadily deteriorated — he was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and believed reptilian aliens were coming to destroy Earth. He is now being held at a psychiatric hospital, where he takes two psychotropic drugs.

"The evidence is overwhelming that Mr. Kinyua was suffering from a mental illness at the time of the offense," Judge Gale E. Rasin said at the hearing.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...safo-agyei-kodie-alexander-kinyua-murder-case

The victim’s severed head and hands were found in the man’s Harford County home; more remains were left in a trash container outside a church.. . .
accounts from Morgan State officials and classmates, as well as social media postings by Kinyua, suggest that he was growing increasingly troubled as his third year of school came to a close. In January, he was dismissed from the ROTC program after an outburst, and in May, he was arrested after allegedly fracturing the skull of a classmate with a baseball bat. The classmate was blinded in one eye as a result of what campus police called a “random” attack.

Kinyua’s Facebook page includes commentary about the “destruction of the black family” and “mass human sacrifices.”

“THIS IS THE BRUTAL BASIS, AN EVIL & TERRIFYING METHOD OF THIS DEATH CULTS,” he wrote in one message.

Students familiar with Kinyua said he was well known on campus but was regarded as odd.

Jasmine Bloomfield said he was “always in his own little world, preaching everywhere he went and talking about how he was writing a book.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...gree-student/2012/06/01/gJQAnu3F8U_story.html

 

[Kamille]

Hi People:

Hope it's OK, but I'm not going to ask for a new thread yet. Our discussions and the trial info is going along smoothly in this thread.

Does everyone agree? Please add a "thanks" if you agree.

:tyou:

I think we can get another week out of this one

 

[Tulessa]

I think we can get another week out of this one

Yes, the Mods allow more posts than this.

 

[Kamille]

I just found a case from last year in Maryland where the defendent was found NCR due to schizophrenic psychosis after the state psychiatrist agreed with the diagnosis. So I sure hope that the prosecution in the LM case have an excellent expert witness ready to testify!
Engineering student Alexander Kinyua killed his roommate in his sleep, dismembered the body and then ate parts of it.



http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...safo-agyei-kodie-alexander-kinyua-murder-case


http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...gree-student/2012/06/01/gJQAnu3F8U_story.html

I remember hearing about that one

I wonder if there was any indication that he planned months in advance to kill someone? Or weeks in advance to make a film about it and post it to the internet?

I doubt he was under the care of any psychiatrists prior to this either.

MOO

 

[LadyL]

he doesn't think he's as sick as he is? so he thinks torturing and murdering is normal behaviour?!

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 6m6 minutes ago
Spent about 25 hours with him, she says. Most difficult patient of my career. Hard for him to talk about symptoms #Magnotta

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 3m3 minutes ago
Allard wondered from first meeting whether #Magnotta was making up symptoms

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 2m2 minutes ago
Most common symptoms that are faked are hallucinations - hearing or seeing things, Allard says #Magnotta

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 2m2 minutes ago
Dr. Allard says #Magnotta was very difficult to examine. He minimizes symptoms. "He doesn't think he's as sick as he is," she says.
suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 2m2 minutes ago
You could feel someone touching you but no one is there; you smell things that aren’t there, Allard says #Magnotta

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 1m1 minute ago
People taste things and think they are being poisoned - all these things are very common in our work, Allard says #Magnotta

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 57s58 seconds ago
Generally in schizophrenia there are hallucinations but not continuous. They can do things to lessen them, too, Allard says #Magnotta

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 53s53 seconds ago
Some will say “I hear in my head” Allard says. But what if they learned that from growing up with a schizophrenic Leclair asks #Magnotta

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 37s38 seconds ago
Could happen, Allard says. But it depends how they act too. We observe a lot. #magnotta

suemontgomery ‏@MontgomerySue · 27s28 seconds ago
afternoon break in #Magnotta. back at 3:15

 

[Kamille]

he doesn't think he's as sick as he is? so he thinks torturing and murdering is normal behaviour?!

Nah, that quote should say Dr Allard THINKS he's sicker than he is. Lol

He's perfectly aware killing and torturing is not normal or legal. Knew it at the time he did it too IMO. He drugged the poor guy for cripes sake. It's not like JL was interacting with him in a way that would make him lapse into a pyschotic state. LM deliberately knocked him out with drugs and alcohol. The poor guy was likely unconscious when his throat was slit and was no threat, real or perceived to LM. At least we've gotta hope JL was completely out of it and didn't know what was happening.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

he doesn't think he's as sick as he is? so he thinks torturing and murdering is normal behaviour?!

Yeah, that's what gets me... From what we've heard from his psychiatrist so far, he's shown no real remorse. If someone committed such an awful crime whilst psychotic and would never dream of doing such a think whilst sane, then I would expect them to have crippling remorse afterwards once they were sane and lucid again. Probably even to become suicidal. The testimony from his current psychiatrist just sickened me - he was just whinging on about himself rather than saying what have I done?? I'm a monster! Could I do something like that again?? Can can I keep people safe from myself? How can I live with myself knowing what I did??