MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[BeginnerSleuther]

Friends of mom who strangled her kids to death support her

Friends of Lindsay Clancy, 32, have recalled her as a kind and loving person. They've said it was clear she suffered from severe postpartum depression.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"....'To all the people condemning her, I ask you to please look into postpartum psychosis and see if that changes your thoughts, even just a little bit.'
I pray for Lindsay as she eventually will surface from the depths of hell she was feeling inside only to find out she is in a new kind of hell…I pray she is given support throughout this horrific fog.'..."

I haven't noticed much condemnation, here or in general. (A lot of sorrow and that is all. )
Actually it looks like there is more forgiveness and support from the public than otherwise ?

What about intensive treatment at a hospital, and someday when she is able to forgive herself, she could hopefully begin her life anew ; as in -- she does not deserve to be locked up for many years, or for life -- if she didn't know what she was doing ?

If Lindsay suffered a total blackout, or if she didn't understand at the time of the deaths that what she was doing was wrong -- can the charges be dropped and she could have mental health care instead ?


In the above link, some friends alluded to possibly more mental issues than just PPD or PPS :

"...'I knew Lindsay from high school...we spent many hours together doing CNA clinical hours and she was such a kind, loving person,' she wrote.

'What I can say for sure is she was battling some serious demons, that nobody can understand if you've never experienced it yourself...."

Question: Was she ill before the children were born ?
I believe this is important.

Did a doctor or nurse ever say that she shouldn't have any children due to her health ?
Trying to see if there were any red flags and if this could have been prevented.

M00.

We don't know if she was ill before the kids were born, but the majority of postpartum psychosis cases are actually women with diagnosed or undiagnosed bipolar disorder even prior to pregnancy. In some cases, schizophrenia that the woman didn't know about or was well-controlled, but then in postpartum, the hormonal shift causes severe decompensation.

And yes, she can please not guilty by reason of insanity. If a jury believes she was insane at the time of the murders, she may be sentenced to a psych ward rather than prison. From there, she can be discharged back to society once she's well. In the case of Andrea Yates, she chose not to be discharged.

 

[annemc2]

I actually think she got an exemplary example of intervention. I think she got better care than most do. Short of a miracle, I don't think this could have been avoided, honestly. Even if the father hadn't gone out to get take-out, he would have showered at some point, he would have slept at some point. Unfortunately, we cannot always predict the trajectory of this type of illness.

Absolutely. Knowing that her inpatient stay was likely long and that she was involved in the day program full time shows how intensively she was receiving care. It is not easy to get insurance to cover those days. I used to spend hours on the phone begging for one more day pleeease with the insurance companies. Or even begging for 24 hours inpatient with an actively suicidal person that was in the ER. It's awful. The only reason we know about this case is because it's an outlier. Mental health crises are happening all day every day everywhere in the US.

I can promise you that every single person involved in her care is looking back and agonizing over the smallest details. When a patient is determined to carry out a plan they can eventually follow through. This is something that mental health professionals have to confront throughout their careers. An oncologist loses a patient to cancer, the psychiatrist loses a patient through suicide. The clinician isn't able to control every single variable and the patient is entitled to the least restrictive environment.

 

[Telltale]

I worked in a womens criminal ward at a psychiatric hospital for a little while. A lot were in for killing their kids during PPS or some other psychotic episode. Usually due to honestly thinking it was the only way to save then.

What often happened was that they were forced to get better due to very strict medication routines etc. When they came back to their right mind... Well they came back to a world where they went crazy, murdered their beloved children and are now locked away for an indeterminate amount of time, hated and alone.

Imagine the sheer horror of that waking nightmare. A lot of them tried very hard to kill themselves once they regained sanity. More than a few succeeded. I honestly couldn't say I blamed them.

Edit:
What was super weird though was when a few of them hung out. Talk would inevitably turn to regular playground mum chatter about their kids... Except all the kids they were talking about where dead.... because the mums sitting having a comfy mummsy gossip had murdered them. I suppose getting to feel like a regular mum - or just chatting about your kids without judgment was comforting; but my God It was just the biggest elephant in the room.

 

[Zella]

I haven't noticed much condemnation, here or in general. (A lot of sorrow and that is all. )
Actually it looks like there is more forgiveness and support from the public than otherwise ?

I think part of that is there's more of an awareness of this condition (and mental health in general) than there was in the past. Obviously still a lot of misconceptions, but I do think we've come a long way in terms of public education about it compared to when the Andrea Yates case happened. (I was admittedly a tween when that happened, but I do remember it and the resulting furor. I read an inordinate amount of news and true crime that was, quite frankly, probably inappropriate for a kid of that age, but I still didn't realize until I was in my 20s that she had postpartum psychosis or the full story of what had happened.)

I also think part of it too is that the family was clearly make an effort in that she had been in in-patient therapy and was still under treatment at home and her husband had rearranged his work so he could be home. They were aware there was an issue and seem to have made a good-faith effort to address it, and I think many people are more inclined to be sympathetic in that case than when people willfully ignored concerning signs and didn't seek treatment.

I agree with whomever earlier categorized it as her being failed, alongside her children. I'd also add her poor husband to the list of people who were failed in this case. MOO

 

[rabidstoat]

Absolutely. Knowing that her inpatient stay was likely long and that she was involved in the day program full time shows how intensively she was receiving care. It is not easy to get insurance to cover those days. I used to spend hours on the phone begging for one more day pleeease with the insurance companies. Or even begging for 24 hours inpatient with an actively suicidal person that was in the ER. It's awful. The only reason we know about this case is because it's an outlier. Mental health crises are happening all day every day everywhere in the US.

I'm still confused on what has and has not been verified. But if she was in inpatient care and then transitioned to outpatient care, my question is: was this purely a medical decision or did insurance come into play? Maybe doctors thought she needed more in-person treatment but she was limited to X days of coverage per year for inpatient mental health treatment on her insurance?

I'm not sure if that insurance limitations would influence doctors to transition her since the stay would no longer be covered, or if the doctors would still say she needed to stay in and if they truly believed that and she would just rack up medical debt.

 

[whitelilac]

I think we have to keep in mind that none of us who have had children, or are planning to, are immune to this devastating disorder.

Post partum anxiety or depression may result from psychological or circumstantial causes or conditions, but PP psychosis is a whole different kettle of fish. It is organic, biological, an entirely different malady. It can hit ANYONE, out of the blue.

Because the words post partum precede the three different conditions does not mean they are intrinsically related, other than they happen shortly, or within a year, after the birth of a child.

imo

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think part of that is there's more of an awareness of this condition (and mental health in general) than there was in the past. Obviously still a lot of misconceptions, but I do think we've come a long way in terms of public education about it compared to when the Andrea Yates case happened. (I was admittedly a tween when that happened, but I do remember it and the resulting furor. I read an inordinate amount of news and true crime that was, quite frankly, probably inappropriate for a kid of that age, but I still didn't realize until I was in my 20s that she had postpartum psychosis or the full story of what had happened.)

I also think part of it too is that the family was clearly make an effort in that she had been in in-patient therapy and was still under treatment at home and her husband had rearranged his work so he could be home. They were aware there was an issue and seem to have made a good-faith effort to address it, and I think many people are more inclined to be sympathetic in that case than when people willfully ignored concerning signs and didn't seek treatment.

I agree with whomever earlier categorized it as her being failed, alongside her children. I'd also add her poor husband to the list of people who were failed in this case. MOO

Failed how though? What more would you want to have happened while still maintaining laws that protect all of our civil rights?

 

[Zella]

What more would you want to have happened

Ideally her not killing her 3 kids? I don't think it's a stretch to wonder if she was released too soon. Clearly something failed because I don't think her healthcare providers intended for that to happen when she went home or would consider that a successful treatment outcome.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I'm still confused on what has and has not been verified. But if she was in inpatient care and then transitioned to outpatient care, my question is: was this purely a medical decision or did insurance come into play? Maybe doctors thought she needed more in-person treatment but she was limited to X days of coverage per year for inpatient mental health treatment on her insurance?

I'm not sure if that insurance limitations would influence doctors to transition her since the stay would no longer be covered, or if the doctors would still say she needed to stay in and if they truly believed that and she would just rack up medical debt.

We don't know, but I can tell you this. I don't know of any insurance company that doesn't cover PPP for a woman still ill. None. And that's saying something because I detest insurance companies for telling us how to practice medicine. But even they realize how serious an illness it is.

It's been my experience that doctors are generally not influenced by insurance companies in severe illness like this, because when she is discharged and kills someone, it isn't the insurance company that's on the hook for malpractice.

That said, it also depends on where she was hospitalized. In my experience, larger healthcare systems (like the one she was working for) will eat the cost if insurance stops paying and the patient is legitimately still meeting inpatient level of care criteria. The smaller healthcare systems can't and the for-profit healthcare systems usually won't bother (don't get me started).

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Ideally her not killing her 3 kids? I don't think it's a stretch to wonder if she was released too soon. Clearly something failed because I don't think her healthcare providers intended for that to happen when she went home.

Let me ask you this question then -- let's say she was in a psych ward for 25 years and after discharge, she killed someone. Would you still think it wasn't long enough? If so, let's talk about it in the context of another illness. Let's say someone has cancer and after 10 rounds of chemo, the cancer still grows. After 20 rounds, nothing. After surgery and radiation, still growing. At some point, I think we'd all agree that the oncologist needs to tell the patient that there's nothing more left to be done. I don't think any of us would think the oncologist failed the patient? So why can't we accept the same for some mental illnesses? What if she wasn't discharged too soon? What if she was discharged when she well and she rapidly relapsed? That isn't a failure, IMO. Sometimes, even mental illnesses can have a "terminal" prognosis, just like cancer.

 

[Zella]

Let me ask you this question then -- let's say she was in a psych ward for 25 years and after discharge, she killed someone. Would you still think it wasn't long enough? If so, let's talk about it in the context of another illness. Let's say someone has cancer and after 10 rounds of chemo, the cancer still grows. After 20 rounds, nothing. After surgery and radiation, still growing. At some point, I think we'd all agree that the oncologist needs to tell the patient that there's nothing more left to be done. I don't think any of us would think the oncologist failed the patient? So why can't we accept the same for some mental illnesses? What if she wasn't discharged too soon? What if she was discharged when she well and she rapidly relapsed? That isn't a failure, IMO. Sometimes, even mental illnesses can have a "terminal" prognosis, just like cancer.

I don't really think this is comparable to cancer. And yes if she'd been released after 25 years and still killed someone due to what she'd been hospitalized for, I think that's a pretty good indication she probably shouldn't have been released.

 

[azure]

I find myself very conflicted about this case. On one hand, I am pleased that empathy is being offered to a perpetrator who was clearly in the throes of mental illness. I'm grateful that PPP is being thoughtfully destigmatized by many professionals and people who have gone through it themselves.

On the other hand, I'm left wondering who 'deserves' a near-unanimous display of empathy and support after murdering three children. Would a murderer who isn't a perfect example of what present-day American society typifies as ideal receive less empathy? Would there be universal support for a murderer who was nonwhite, who was poor, who was a single mother with no husband stridently defending her in the press, who, instead of working in a caregiving job, was perhaps a sex worker? What about an illegal immigrant? You may say it's a moot point because that isn't the case being discussed, or that I can't predict how people would react in another scenario. But I've rarely seen any empathy for women who kill and discard their infants, who lay unidentified for years. When the infants are identified and the mothers arrested, there is celebration, not mourning. But who knows if in addition to PPP, those mothers weren't experiencing homelessness, abuse, or many other traumas.

I hope that the empathy offered to this woman is carefully considered, and that everyone so readily offering it explores their beliefs on when matricide is a 'tragedy' and when it's a crime.

 

[airportwoman]

I think part of that is there's more of an awareness of this condition (and mental health in general) than there was in the past. Obviously still a lot of misconceptions, but I do think we've come a long way in terms of public education about it compared to when the Andrea Yates case happened. (I was admittedly a tween when that happened, but I do remember it and the resulting furor. I read an inordinate amount of news and true crime that was, quite frankly, probably inappropriate for a kid of that age, but I still didn't realize until I was in my 20s that she had postpartum psychosis or the full story of what had happened.)

I also think part of it too is that the family was clearly make an effort in that she had been in in-patient therapy and was still under treatment at home and her husband had rearranged his work so he could be home. They were aware there was an issue and seem to have made a good-faith effort to address it, and I think many people are more inclined to be sympathetic in that case than when people willfully ignored concerning signs and didn't seek treatment.

I agree with whomever earlier categorized it as her being failed, alongside her children. I'd also add her poor husband to the list of people who were failed in this case. MOO

ITA 100%. Postpartum depression is not abnormal, because their hormones are all over the place, but anything where a woman is at danger of harming herself and/or her baby is not. And truthfully, until recent decades, not a lot could be done about it. (I'm a pharmacist and used to work in a hospital that had an inpatient psychiatric unit, and we did get occasional women with PPD, and one of my co-workers admitted that she'd been hospitalized with it after having her first child).

 

[Ilex]

I'm pretty sure another article said she was already inpatient. I'll say MOO about that since I can't remember for sure it was stated, but I believe someone linked the article already that said she was inpatient, then discharged to a 5-day a week partial hospital program. Also, McLean is part of Mass General, where she worked.

Oh, I only saw the 5 day a week outpatient program. I'm sure she was carefully evaluated before discharge. Sometimes looking at a situation you can see the red flags or the missed clues, but this one seems like there was nothing more that could have been done.
ETA-I've gone looking and haven't seen any indication she received any inpatient care anywhere. It seems she had taken time off work and was only receiving outpatient care. Again, I'm sure she was carefully evaluated before any decisions for care were made.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I don't really think this is comparable to cancer. And yes if she'd been released after 25 years and still killed someone due to what she'd been hospitalized for, I think that's a pretty good indication she probably shouldn't have been released.

But see, that's the problem IMO. You cannot keep mentally ill people locked away forever because they "might" kill someone anymore than you can keep anyone else locked up because they "might" kill someone. It's not right. No one can predict whether or not someone will kill. All you can do is evaluate based on risk level and if risk level is low, you discharge. But risk level being low doesn't mean non-existent...for anyone, including those without mental illness.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

ITA 100%. Postpartum depression is not abnormal, because their hormones are all over the place,

Of course it is. I'm not sure what you mean?

but anything where a woman is at danger of harming herself and/or her baby is not. And truthfully, until recent decades, not a lot could be done about it. (I'm a pharmacist and used to work in a hospital that had an inpatient psychiatric unit, and we did get occasional women with PPD, and one of my co-workers admitted that she'd been hospitalized with it after having her first child).

This woman reportedly had postpartum psychosis. It's different than PPD.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Oh, I only saw the 5 day a week outpatient program. I'm sure she was carefully evaluated before discharge. Sometimes looking at a situation you can see the red flags or the missed clues, but this one seems like there was nothing more that could have been done.
ETA-I've gone looking and haven't seen any indication she received any inpatient care anywhere. It seems she had taken time off work and was only receiving outpatient care. Again, I'm sure she was carefully evaluated before any decisions for care were made.

I won't swear to it either. If anyone has a MSM article that mentioned inpatient treatment, please let me know. One thing I will say is that generally with this illness, you do inpatient treatment first, then outpatient as a step down. Could she have only done outpatient? Maybe. I'd be surprised though, unless her working diagnosis was only PPD and not PPP.

 

[Telltale]

I find myself very conflicted about this case. On one hand, I am pleased that empathy is being offered to a perpetrator who was clearly in the throes of mental illness. I'm grateful that PPP is being thoughtfully destigmatized by many professionals and people who have gone through it themselves.

On the other hand, I'm left wondering who 'deserves' a near-unanimous display of empathy and support after murdering three children. Would a murderer who isn't a perfect example of what present-day American society typifies as ideal receive less empathy? Would there be universal support for a murderer who was nonwhite, who was poor, who was a single mother with no husband stridently defending her in the press, who, instead of working in a caregiving job, was perhaps a sex worker? What about an illegal immigrant? You may say it's a moot point because that isn't the case being discussed, or that I can't predict how people would react in another scenario. But I've rarely seen any empathy for women who kill and discard their infants, who lay unidentified for years. When the infants are identified and the mothers arrested, there is celebration, not mourning. But who knows if in addition to PPP, those mothers weren't experiencing homelessness, abuse, or many other traumas.

I hope that the empathy offered to this woman is carefully considered, and that everyone so readily offering it explores their beliefs on when matricide is a 'tragedy' and when it's a crime.

I have empathy for women who, due to a hormone imbalance that cannot predict or control, so completely detach from reality that murder their loved children. Their brain turned on them utterly. Often their terrible actions are still driven by love, it has just been twisted by a completely real (to them) but alien reality. Could you kill your child so could be safe in heaven of you knew, absolutely knew, they would be endlessly tortured by demons if you didn't?

I do not think anybody should temper empathy for this family that due to this woman being a white apple pie American mum, just because another hypothetical woman might be hypothetically offered less.

If a woman operating in this reality, who has any alternative options at all (and in the west there are almost always alternatives.) Kills her child abandons it to die, or stuffs it in a shoebox or otherwise pays for her own convenience and comfort with a babies life. Yeah I don't have all that much sympathy. No matter how much she's struggling, she could rouse herself enough to hand the baby to literally anyone.

 

[azure]

I have empathy for women who, due to a hormone imbalance that cannot predict or control, so completely detach from reality that murder their loved children. Their brain turned on them utterly. Often their terrible actions are still driven by love, it has just been twisted by a completely real (to them) but alien reality. Could you kill your child so could be safe in heaven of you knew, absolutely knew, they would be endlessly tortured by demons if you didn't?

I do not think anybody should temper empathy for this family that due to this woman being a white apple pie American mum, just because another hypothetical woman might be hypothetically offered less.

If a woman operating in this reality, who has any alternative options at all (and in the west there are almost always alternatives.) Kills her child abandons it to die, or stuffs it in a shoebox or otherwise pays for her own convenience and comfort with a babies life. Yeah I don't have all that much sympathy. No matter how much she's struggling, she could rouse herself enough to hand the baby to literally anyone.

So you have empathy for the mother who slowly strangles her children to death, but not the mother who abandons her child, assuming both are experiencing PPP? Interesting.

 

[Telltale]

So you have empathy for the mother who slowly strangles her children to death, but not the mother who abandons her child, assuming both are experiencing PPP? Interesting.

I have empathy depending on the reasons.

I would not call a mother in 1945 who kills their children before the gas chambers a murder or a monster. I would not call a mother who's brain has malfunctioned to the point her reality tells her she faces the same choice a murderer or a monster either.

My second scenario, as is stated above, was based on a mother who did not have PPS, but killed her child out of pressure from poverty, secrecy, religion, addiction etc. Those people have terrible burdens but they live in this reality. In this reality, at least in the west, there are many options that do not involve murdering your children. Therefore if you choose to murder your children, no I have no sympathy for you.