MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #10

[Trailbum74]

BBM
I've taken to "doom-scrolling" twitter accounts following the trial and so far it's not looking good and I'm worried that I'm going eventually to lose sympathy for them, having respected the dignity they have shown in public to this point.

If KR is acquitted and they continue to believe she did it and pursue a civil case against her they will risk becoming part of the problem, rather than the solution to getting justice for JO'K.

MOO

Every day while watching the trial I look over at my partner and ask, “How can they not see the evidence?”

I understand some of the Okeefe’s may not care for her as an individual (particularly after the BH texts), but the overwhelming amount of information countering the CW’s theory should at least count for something. Right?

 

[acutename]

** Warning ** graphic photo **


@149Zone7

This is a photo of a dog bite. See the parallel bite marks? Experts are going to argue what caused the numerous parallel marks on John O’Keefe’s arm but the jury is going to have to believe flying pieces of tail light caused parallel marks in different directions without any blood or tissue being left on the plastic. Not one states witness has lead us to believe without a reasonable doubt a vehicle caused the injuries to the Officer O’Keefe.
View attachment 511601

I have (unfortunately) been bitten by a few dogs- a puncture and then as the mouth moves, a long scratch. There are not necessarily punctures above and below- dogs can play bite and never really "bite down" so there is just the upper surface marks. Or if the dog seriously bites, a whole canine dental impresson. And there can be toe nail scratches too. IMO. Cannot imagine that LE that works with dogs does not have lots of information on dog bites.

 

[bobbymkii]

Every day while watching the trial I look over at my partner and ask, “How can they not see the evidence?”

I understand some of the Okeefe’s may not care for her as an individual (particularly after the BH texts), but the overwhelming amount of information countering the CW’s theory should at least count for something. Right?

I can perfectly understand why it might take some considerable time for them to come to terms with it. I certainly wouldn't volunteer to be the person who has to convince them that it was a wild conspiracy by people in the law enforcement community which John dedicated his working life to, which actually ended his life in such a brutal and unjust manner. Not his girlfriend/partner/"babysitter with benefits" whom they don't seem to have had an awful lot of time for.

JMO

 

[TTF14]

** Warning ** graphic photo **


@149Zone7

This is a photo of a dog bite. See the parallel bite marks? Experts are going to argue what caused the numerous parallel marks on John O’Keefe’s arm but the jury is going to have to believe flying pieces of tail light caused parallel marks in different directions without any blood or tissue being left on the plastic. Not one states witness has lead us to believe without a reasonable doubt a vehicle caused the injuries to the Officer O’Keefe.
View attachment 511601

Ouch! I am hoping there are some jurors who have at least a little experience with dog bites, but even if not, it doesn't make any sense at all that a flying piece of taillight plastic would cause puncture wounds in a shirt, in the pattern we see on his arm. Those are from a dog. They would have been better off with Bob Motta's theory that maybe a wild animal came and did that after he was already there lying in the snow.

IMO MOO

 

[RickshawFan]

I agree, that is how I interpreted the marks and I suspect that Dr Russell had trouble seeing what she was pointing at on the court screen.

The middle wound by the elbow looks to me as if it has punctures top and bottom and the skin would have been pinched in between (marked in blue for reference)

The scratches left and right look very much like claw marks. I foster large dogs and I'm often sporting claw marks like those shown (fortunately no teeth marks as yet)

View attachment 511538

I agree. Those "scratches" are from a dog when you've got lazy and haven't cut his nails lately. My wood floors look like that, too.

 

[LvsAMystry]

The prosecution shouldn't definitively state what caused the injuries on JO's arm. They absolutely look like they could be dog bites, they also could be rolling around in glass, plastic, crawling through the bushes, dragged under a car, or any number of things and experts will never agree 100% what they are. We have no idea what he did after being hit by the car assuming you believe that is what happened. We have no idea if he died instantly or if those marks were on his arms before he exited KR's car (those could also be scratch marks from KR). To me, if there is no canine DNA on his shirt, then there was no dog bite. A dog bite through his shirt is much more aggressive than a cheek swab. Does anyone believe a dog dragged its teeth across his skin with his shirt in its mouth the whole time and there is no DNA left behind?

in theory or premise I agree, however it was also noted in testimony that they were not presented with the shirt in its entirety they were only given swabs or swatches and there’s no indication what portion from the shirt the sampling was taken from etc.

 

[ch_13]

The prosecution shouldn't definitively state what caused the injuries on JO's arm. They absolutely look like they could be dog bites, they also could be rolling around in glass, plastic, crawling through the bushes, dragged under a car, or any number of things and experts will never agree 100% what they are. We have no idea what he did after being hit by the car assuming you believe that is what happened. We have no idea if he died instantly or if those marks were on his arms before he exited KR's car (those could also be scratch marks from KR).

For the prosecution to kind of throw up their hands and say to the jury "We want you to find Karen Read guilty of murder in the second degree but we have no idea how this murder actually happened" is not a good look.

If they can't explain John's wounds they shouldn't have brought the case to trial.

To me, if there is no canine DNA on his shirt, then there was no dog bite. A dog bite through his shirt is much more aggressive than a cheek swab. Does anyone believe a dog dragged its teeth across his skin with his shirt in its mouth the whole time and there is no DNA left behind?

There are a lot of open questions about the shirt's chain of custody, so I wouldn't put too much credence in the lack of DNA on the shirt. Who knows what happened to it after it was cut off of him. And of course the ME never bothered to check John's wounds for DNA.

But one thing to me is clear: Those tiny holes in his shirt are punctures. They're not from slicing, cutting or abrading and were not caused by the taillight or the car or whatever the latest fanciful thing people have come up with to explain the wounds. Seriously, John was crawling through bushes? WTH?

 

[arielilane]

Ouch! I am hoping there are some jurors who have at least a little experience with dog bites, but even if not, it doesn't make any sense at all that a flying piece of taillight plastic would cause puncture wounds in a shirt, in the pattern we see on his arm. Those are from a dog. They would have been better off with Bob Motta's theory that maybe a wild animal came and did that after he was already there lying in the snow.

IMO MOO

Everything is going to have to make sense to the jurors. If it doesnt make sense, it's reasonable doubt.

I've thought about scavenger animals, too. iirc, there is a wooded area behind the Albert home?

moo

Also...
There have been black bear spotted in other counties less than an hour from Canton.

Police issue warning about black bear sightings in Haverhill

Police in Haverhill, Massachusetts, issued a warning Monday after a series of black bear sightings. In a Facebook post on Monday morning, police said that they had received multiple calls of a black bear seen in the area of Windsor Street, Mill Street and the Lake Saltonstall area. They said...

www.nbcboston.com

Black bear removed from downtown Worcester, ‘literally in our backyard'

A black bear was safely removed from the backyard of a home in downtown Worcester on Friday, authorities said. Eyewitness video showed a MassWildlife team carry the bear to a waiting pickup truck, where it was laid on ice, its head in a wrap. Someone, asked if the bear will be okay, can be heard...

www.nbcboston.com

 

[kittythehare]

Everything is going to have to make sense to the jurors. If it doesnt make sense, it's reasonable doubt.

I've thought about scavenger animals, too. iirc, there is a wooded area behind the Albert home?

moo

Also...
There have been black bear spotted in other counties less than an hour from Canton.

Police issue warning about black bear sightings in Haverhill

Police in Haverhill, Massachusetts, issued a warning Monday after a series of black bear sightings. In a Facebook post on Monday morning, police said that they had received multiple calls of a black bear seen in the area of Windsor Street, Mill Street and the Lake Saltonstall area. They said...

www.nbcboston.com

Black bear removed from downtown Worcester, ‘literally in our backyard'

A black bear was safely removed from the backyard of a home in downtown Worcester on Friday, authorities said. Eyewitness video showed a MassWildlife team carry the bear to a waiting pickup truck, where it was laid on ice, its head in a wrap. Someone, asked if the bear will be okay, can be heard...

www.nbcboston.com

A black bear with a hatchet, clobbered victim on back of head and then pawed him on one arm? That dog won't hunt.
A black bear would have taken him away or at least a large portion of him..
Bears have larger teeth than dogs and that would have been obvious from images..

I think a human did this.
I don't know why though.

It's been reported he looked up to the head of the house but that may not have been reciprocated.
I read that they did not attend his funeral.


Why not?

 

[pavlovsdaughter]

IMO there’s no way those scratches were caused by a human. Fingernails would break before gouging like that, and her hands would’ve been a mess the next day.

I’m def on team dog attack.

 

[Spectrix]

it doesn't make any sense at all that a flying piece of taillight plastic would cause puncture wounds in a shirt, in the pattern we see on his arm. Those are from a dog. They would have been better off with Bob Motta's theory that maybe a wild animal came and did that after he was already there lying in the snow.

They would have been better off alleging that KR viciously attacked and bit JOK herself than trying to suggest those marks came from a tail light.

 

[HarmonyE.]

The prosecution shouldn't definitively state what caused the injuries on JO's arm. They absolutely look like they could be dog bites, they also could be rolling around in glass, plastic, crawling through the bushes, dragged under a car, or any number of things and experts will never agree 100% what they are. We have no idea what he did after being hit by the car assuming you believe that is what happened. We have no idea if he died instantly or if those marks were on his arms before he exited KR's car (those could also be scratch marks from KR). To me, if there is no canine DNA on his shirt, then there was no dog bite. A dog bite through his shirt is much more aggressive than a cheek swab. Does anyone believe a dog dragged its teeth across his skin with his shirt in its mouth the whole time and there is no DNA left behind?

I've always thought they looked like claw mark/scratches. The DNA expert for the prosecution explained on cross that claws tend not to transfer DNA because they are made up of dead tissue. There are also major chain of custody issues with regard to John's clothing.

If the prosecution could have found an English speaking biomechanical expert anywhere on the planet that could explain exactly how John received those parallel lacerations rolling around in glass, plastic, or bushes, they would have put them on and skipped confused Trooper Joe. The state has unlimited resources.

 

[Spectrix]

I understand some of the Okeefe’s may not care for her as an individual (particularly after the BH texts), but the overwhelming amount of information countering the CW’s theory should at least count for something. Right?

Did this family have bad blood with KR before the incident?
I am watching the testimony of JOK's brother Paul O'Keefe (Day 1 of the trial)
He is recounting seeing KR in the hospital in the hours after the incident -

Paul O'Keefe: "We saw Karen Read being restrained by hospital employees, screaming over and over "IS HE ALIVE?! IS HE ALIVE ?! IS HE ALIVE?!

Prosecution: "At any point either before or after did you respond to any of that screaming that you heard from the defendant?"

Paul O'Keefe: "I actually blew her a kiss"

 

[kittythehare]

Did this family have bad blood with KR before the incident?
I am watching the testimony of JOK's brother Paul O'Keefe (Day 1 of the trial)
He is recounting seeing KR in the hospital in the hours after the incident -

Paul O'Keefe: "We saw Karen Read being restrained by hospital employees, screaming over and over "IS HE ALIVE?! IS HE ALIVE ?! IS HE ALIVE?!

Prosecution: "At any point either before or after did you respond to any of that screaming that you heard from the defendant?"

Paul O'Keefe: "I actually blew her a kiss"

I remember that.
She was also very close to his wife, they were good mates, now they sit in very close proximity to her, which seems wrong and they don't acknowledge each other at all..
That is another great loss to her, I think..

 

[keek]

As stated in Canton Confidential podcast no one is talking about JOK’s body was flipped over before LE arrived.

For anyone who might be interested:

911 call -- timestamp: 15:15

"We just flipped him over."

Day 8 | Who are the Albert family?

On Day 8, we heard more from Chris and Julie Albert - friends of John O'Keefe - about what happened the night he died and the Albert family's connections in Canton and law enforcement.

art19.com

Always think of that, and where is the follow up as I heard JMc say when asked what position he was in she looked like 'whaaa?' then just laying there on his back.. SO?

 

[kittythehare]

For the prosecution to kind of throw up their hands and say to the jury "We want you to find Karen Read guilty of murder in the second degree but we have no idea how this murder actually happened" is not a good look.

If they can't explain John's wounds they shouldn't have brought the case to trial.


There are a lot of open questions about the shirt's chain of custody, so I wouldn't put too much credence in the lack of DNA on the shirt. Who knows what happened to it after it was cut off of him. And of course the ME never bothered to check John's wounds for DNA.

But one thing to me is clear: Those tiny holes in his shirt are punctures. They're not from slicing, cutting or abrading and were not caused by the taillight or the car or whatever the latest fanciful thing people have come up with to explain the wounds. Seriously, John was crawling through bushes? WTH?

Oh they'll find 'well briefed' medical experts to say what they want them to say, this is their icing on the cake and why they left it until last but it can't wash unless we have an already highly prejudiced jury..

 

[kittythehare]

Always think of that, and where is the follow up as I heard JMc say when asked what position he was in she looked like 'whaaa?' then just laying there on his back.. SO?

Well the women who found his body attempted CPR , I imagine they turned him over as it would be impossible otherwise. Mystery solved.

 

[TTF14]

IMO there’s no way those scratches were caused by a human. Fingernails would break before gouging like that, and her hands would’ve been a mess the next day.

I’m def on team dog attack.

Semantics, but I'm on team dog "defend." I think Chloe stepped in to defend a perceived threat when she saw a fight happening.

JMO

 

[keek]

Well the women who found his body attempted CPR , I imagine they turned him over as it would be impossible otherwise. Mystery solved.

Yes, then when asked though how JO looked when she saw him, but we know her head was thinking all the time, is this a trick question. Just had said on his back, no mention of Kerri or KR turning him over/flip. Phone under him, he laying on that phone. They didn't think to toss that a distance like the glass cup, shoe and oh yes, the red plastic.

 

[kittythehare]

Semantics, but I'm on team dog "defend." I think Chloe stepped in to defend a perceived threat when she saw a fight happening.

JMO

Yeah. That's most likely.
The cuts were made while he was still alive by the looks of them.

I'm not sure what was his relationship with dogs generally.
That might be useful information.
To know how he might have instinctively reacted to the dog.

Be interesting too to know the sequence of the injuries that occurred.

The injury to his head must be the injury that killed him..


What the hell happened?

Was he in the rear yard when the dog was out and did he react badly to her? She wasn't good with strangers.

Was that what actually happened?

I think I'm assuming the dog attack preceded the head injury,

I'm also unclear as to the nature of that wound..