MISTRIAL MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #19

[mrjitty]

You're right, an analysis or accident reconstruction may prove or disprove that theory.
It's not clear in the video exactly what hit what first, or what followed. Bumpers are designed to absorb impact, but tail lights are not.
Certainly the impact was enough for JOKs vehicle to visibly move. So it's a possible explanation for a cause of the damage.

I hope so!

You would think there would have to be damage to both bumpers before the light could break - its the whole point of them. But who knows the relative heights

 

[twhel]

Refer to my other post about the SERT report issues. The lack of proper documentation on when, where, and how the taillight pieces were found makes the chain of custody questionable.

As for your claim that there was ‘no possibility’ of pieces finding their way to the scene before the SERT search… how can you be so certain? The fact remains that SERT didn’t find anything until nearly 24 hours later, after the area had already been searched, and by that time, Karen Read’s SUV was no longer there. Without airtight documentation, there’s no way to rule out the possibility of evidence being mishandled, misplaced, or even planted.

And yes, the first jury was focused on the SERT search. Because it raised serious questions, not because it resolved them.

IMO

How can I be certain, on that point? As of time of the arrival of KR's towed vehicle at Canton PD, the SERT team was already on the scene of the alleged crime. It was snowing heavily. The items of evidence eventually recovered (five tail light pieces and JOK's sneaker) were dug out from the snow with a shovel and photographed in situ. The shovel itself was photographed. KR's defense has not even attempted to venture a scenario in which Proctor could have planted evidence under those circumstances.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

How can I be certain, on that point? As of time of the arrival of KR's towed vehicle at Canton PD, the SERT team was already on the scene of the alleged crime. It was snowing heavily. The items of evidence eventually recovered (five tail light pieces and JOK's sneaker) were dug out from the snow with a shovel and photographed in situ. The shovel itself was photographed. KR's defense has not even attempted to venture a scenario in which Proctor could have planted evidence under those circumstances.

I understand your point, but the fact that the evidence was recovered from snow doesn’t eliminate the possibility of it being planted, especially given the timeline and weather conditions. The issue isn’t necessarily about the shovel or the recovery method, but rather the lack of clear documentation and proper chain of custody throughout the entire process. Even if the pieces were found in the snow, the amount of time that passed, the failure to preserve proper records, and the general mishandling of evidence leave enough room for reasonable doubt about how they were recovered and handled.

MOO.

 

[Spectrix]

You would think there would have to be damage to both bumpers before the light could break - its the whole point of them. But who knows the relative heights

The point of them is to absorb impact.
That's a big difference between say a body panel and a bumper. Some body panels are metal or alloy crumple zones which absorb energy during a crash by crumpling.

Where as bumpers on modern cars are designed to absorb a small amount of force by flexing first. They may only crumple with a larger impact.

 

[Angelwatch]

Refer to my other post about the SERT report issues. The lack of proper documentation on when, where, and how the taillight pieces were found makes the chain of custody questionable.

As for your claim that there was ‘no possibility’ of pieces finding their way to the scene before the SERT search… how can you be so certain? The fact remains that SERT didn’t find anything until nearly 24 hours later, after the area had already been searched, and by that time, Karen Read’s SUV was no longer there. Without airtight documentation, there’s no way to rule out the possibility of evidence being mishandled, misplaced, or even planted.

And yes, the first jury was focused on the SERT search. Because it raised serious questions, not because it resolved them.

IMO

All of these shortcomings, added with failure to preserve the crime scene, creates reasonable doubt IMO.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

I just need to get this off my chest.

In the U.S. legal system, a conviction requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Karen Read, as a U.S. citizen, is entitled to the full protection of her constitutional rights. It is not the defense’s responsibility, nor anyone here’s, to prove collusion or misconduct by Canton PD. What should be clear, however, is the sheer number of questionable relationships, chain of custody issues, missing video footage, and witness discrepancies that have surfaced. These all contribute to a reasonable doubt that cannot be overlooked.

All MOO.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if the CW will have an analysis of the defendants collision with JOKs vehicle? like would the tail light have struck his bumper? or what is the logic of it?

wouldn’t the defendants bumper be the first impact point?

i don’t full accept this explanation

Yes they will. It was brought up in a recent hearing, with Brennan saying his expert will provide evidence about the nudge with John's car, with the snow movement seen on John's bumper.

timestamp from 3.29.17

 

[kuromiiiilove]

I understand that. I was simply commenting that I don't think COC is a big issue as regards SERTs evidence. It's surely not disputed what they found.

This sometimes happens where defence dispute COC, then the State will have to bring the witness to prove each step.

IMO

We will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, the entire process should be transparent and properly documented from start to finish. Without that, any claims about the evidence’s reliability are hard to accept. The chain of custody isn’t a minor issue. It directly impacts the trustworthiness of the evidence, and in a case like this, reasonable doubt is all it takes to question validity.

 

[mrjitty]

We will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, the entire process should be transparent and properly documented from start to finish. Without that, any claims about the evidence’s reliability are hard to accept. The chain of custody isn’t a minor issue. It directly impacts the trustworthiness of the evidence, and in a case like this, reasonable doubt is all it takes to question validity.

It depends on specifics. For instance if I find the debris and photograph it, but then don't fill out the COC correctly, it might allow the defence to argue that the exhibit in court is not accepted as the same thing that I found. Then i have to testify that it is. And like you say, the jury might not believe me due to surrounding circumstances.

But in this case, I don't think it is seriously contested that SERT did in fact find and photograph tail light pieces. To my mind, the defence is saying those were planted there before SERT arrived.

I agree lack of clarity about where they were found is an issue.

MOO

 

[Forest_Wood]

We will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, the entire process should be transparent and properly documented from start to finish. Without that, any claims about the evidence’s reliability are hard to accept. The chain of custody isn’t a minor issue. It directly impacts the trustworthiness of the evidence, and in a case like this, reasonable doubt is all it takes to question validity.

Absolutely should have been transparent! Thank you.
There is also the discrepancy in Proctor's timing of his possession of Karen's vehicle. He documented the wrong time in his documents, indicating he took possession of it 1.5 hours (IIRC) later than when he actually had it. Why????? Too many discrepancies to overlook in this case.
MOO

 

[mrjitty]

How can I be certain, on that point? As of time of the arrival of KR's towed vehicle at Canton PD, the SERT team was already on the scene of the alleged crime. It was snowing heavily. The items of evidence eventually recovered (five tail light pieces and JOK's sneaker) were dug out from the snow with a shovel and photographed in situ. The shovel itself was photographed. KR's defense has not even attempted to venture a scenario in which Proctor could have planted evidence under those circumstances.

For me the only scenario that can work is if they are not from the Lexus at the Sallyport but rather from JOK's driveway. The dashcam video shows the pieces are already out that morning, and if the D evidence is accepted, they must therefore have been in front of JOK's right bumper.

So someone would have had to take them from JOK's and plant them before SERT arrive.

 

[Lorenathered]

I just need to get this off my chest.

In the U.S. legal system, a conviction requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Karen Read, as a U.S. citizen, is entitled to the full protection of her constitutional rights. It is not the defense’s responsibility, nor anyone here’s, to prove collusion or misconduct by Canton PD. What should be clear, however, is the sheer number of questionable relationships, chain of custody issues, missing video footage, and witness discrepancies that have surfaced. These all contribute to a reasonable doubt that cannot be overlooked.

All MOO.

And lets add to that, that the Canton PD already has a history of covering up a murder - Sandra Birchmore anyone?? Given their already proven corruption, they should get even less of a benefit of the doubt IMO.

 

[Wishbone]

If I had to decide who was involved in John's death, I would choose Higgins 100% based on his pursuit of Karen Read, when he left the Alberts at the exact time John was arriving, and the delay of an hour for him to get to the CPD. For that matter, why did he return to the CPD in the first place in the middle of the night! Outrageous behavior after a day/night of drinking. For all we know, John and he had words outside after John left Karen's vehicle and before he entered the Albert home. Maybe Higgins had stepped out into the breezeway at the same time John was about to enter. We don't know. Maybe they stepped to the side of the house and got into a fight. We don't know. Maybe his body was kept in the back/side yard until Higgins figured out what to do during that missing hour. The fact that these clowns the Alberts had no security cameras is unbelievable to me. Karen had her head down at this point in her car, as all people these days do, looking at her phone, and the snow had started, so it's not like she was looking in that direction. I think BA got involved after the fact to protect his best buddy Higgins, hence all those butt calls at 2:30AM. There is more than one scenario that could have happened. There is plenty of reasonable doubt for a NG verdict IMO.
MOO

I'm leaning toward Colin jumping in and doing the worst damage. They are trying so hard to protect him that it makes me think he delivered the fatal blow.

 

[Spectrix]

I just need to get this off my chest.

In the U.S. legal system, a conviction requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Karen Read, as a U.S. citizen, is entitled to the full protection of her constitutional rights. It is not the defense’s responsibility, nor anyone here’s, to prove collusion or misconduct by Canton PD. What should be clear, however, is the sheer number of questionable relationships, chain of custody issues, missing video footage, and witness discrepancies that have surfaced. These all contribute to a reasonable doubt that cannot be overlooked.

All MOO.

The evidence in the first trial created hundreds of bits and pieces that added to reasonable doubt for me.

Not just the aspects like say, JOKs body having zero signs of having been hit by a 4000 pound SUV or KR's SUV having zero signs of hitting a body. Those are major, sure.
The investigation itself was a complete shambles. That on its own should be enough.

But then the flurry of butt dials, deleted texts, deleted searches, phones being disposed of. Missing video, inverted video, the list goes on.

It's why this case is just so captivating. There is SO much going on. There is SO much reasonable doubt

The fact that it hasn't been thrown out of court is completely bonkers to me.

 

[Forest_Wood]

I'm leaning toward Colin jumping in and doing the worst damage. They are trying so hard to protect him that it makes me think he delivered the fatal blow.

The court has ruled that Colin can't be named as a third party this time around. From the timeline I posted up above, it seems he left before John got there, although those knuckles of his with the bruises ...

 

[nodamselindistress]

As I recall from Trial 1, Jen's daughter came to pick Colin up at 34 Fairview and there was a whole discussion around actual timing of that and the Life360 App.

ETA: Just remembered she said they just "drove around" for quite awhile before she dropped him at his parents' condo.

 

[Forest_Wood]

As I recall from Trial 1, Jen's daughter came to pick Colin up at 34 Fairview and there was a whole discussion around actual timing of that and the Life360 App.

ETA: Just remembered she said they just "drove around" for quite awhile before she dropped him at his parents' condo.

Yes! And Jen McCabe had no idea her daughter had been with Colin that night. It was a total surprise to her to hear about that on the witness stand IIRC. Why the secrecy about the daughter picking him up.

 

[Derph]

Refer to my other post about the SERT report issues. The lack of proper documentation on when, where, and how the taillight pieces were found makes the chain of custody questionable.

As for your claim that there was ‘no possibility’ of pieces finding their way to the scene before the SERT search… how can you be so certain? The fact remains that SERT didn’t find anything until nearly 24 hours later, after the area had already been searched, and by that time, Karen Read’s SUV was no longer there. Without airtight documentation, there’s no way to rule out the possibility of evidence being mishandled, misplaced, or even planted.

And yes, the first jury was focused on the SERT search. Because it raised serious questions, not because it resolved them.

IMO

Don't forget there were other "officers" at 34 Fairview who helped in the search but no one on the SERT knew who they were. The leading member of the SERT mentioned this in his testimony. So we have random people helping out at the crime scene. Who were they? Why were they there? How long were they there? When did they arrive? And more importantly Who sent them there to "help"????

This is a HUGE procedural mistake. There is supposed to be very detailed log of who enters and who leaves a murder scene and the exact times those people entered/left the scene. SOP is to have one officer in charge of that log and the reasons are pretty obvious. This is to prevent contaminating the scene with their DNA, fingerprints, footprints, blood, cigarette butts etc, etc. It also prevents these people from planting evidence! But since this was not done we don't know anything about those other people who were there "helping" the SERT. In my opinion all the tail light pieces and anything else gathered from the front yard from that afternoon search should be thrown out because the crime scene was never secured. It would have been tossed out of any other court.

Another one of those darned coincidences were just supposed to ignore huh?

 

[rescuemom]

And her taillight never touched his car

It’s my opinion, this will be proven this time at trial.

Watch the video JOK car moved when she hit it

 

[mrjitty]

Don't forget there were other "officers" at 34 Fairview who helped in the search but no one on the SERT knew who they were. The leading member of the SERT mentioned this in his testimony. So we have random people helping out at the crime scene. Who were they? Why were they there? How long were they there? When did they arrive? And more importantly Who sent them there to "help"????

This is a HUGE procedural mistake. There is supposed to be very detailed log of who enters and who leaves a murder scene and the exact times those people entered/left the scene. SOP is to have one officer in charge of that log and the reasons are pretty obvious. This is to prevent contaminating the scene with their DNA, fingerprints, footprints, blood, cigarette butts etc, etc. It also prevents these people from planting evidence! But since this was not done we don't know anything about those other people who were there "helping" the SERT. In my opinion all the tail light pieces and anything else gathered from the front yard from that afternoon search should be thrown out because the crime scene was never secured. It would have been tossed out of any other court.

Another one of those darned coincidences were just supposed to ignore huh?

I just listened to the cross of Lt O'Hara and I think you are overstating it a bit. He said he did not personally know all of the officers present. Given how many people were there, that is hardly surprising. There is no evidence unknown/random "officers' were present. If you were going to stage the scene, going there when there were 10+ officers from various branches would be a bit of an odd choice!