MISTRIAL MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #19

[Angelwatch]

Don't forget there were other "officers" at 34 Fairview who helped in the search but no one on the SERT knew who they were. The leading member of the SERT mentioned this in his testimony. So we have random people helping out at the crime scene. Who were they? Why were they there? How long were they there? When did they arrive? And more importantly Who sent them there to "help"????

This is a HUGE procedural mistake. There is supposed to be very detailed log of who enters and who leaves a murder scene and the exact times those people entered/left the scene. SOP is to have one officer in charge of that log and the reasons are pretty obvious. This is to prevent contaminating the scene with their DNA, fingerprints, footprints, blood, cigarette butts etc, etc. It also prevents these people from planting evidence! But since this was not done we don't know anything about those other people who were there "helping" the SERT. In my opinion all the tail light pieces and anything else gathered from the front yard from that afternoon search should be thrown out because the crime scene was never secured. It would have been tossed out of any other court.

Another one of those darned coincidences were just supposed to ignore huh?

The crime scene wasn't preserved. No photos were taken. No measurements were taken. Karen's car wasn't photographed prior to being impounded. Taillight evidence was discovered only after her car was taken into custody. Video evidence is missing time. His sweatshirt, which showed blood on the front, wasn't properly stored as evidence. This case should have been dismissed. The investigation was shoddy and the lead investigator was biased.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Watch the video JOK car moved when she hit it

I watched it. Her bumper tapped his vehicle.

 

[Wishbone]

I just listened to the cross of Lt O'Hara and I think you are overstating it a bit. He said he did not personally know all of the officers present. Given how many people were there, that is hardly surprising. There is no evidence unknown/random "officers' were present. If you were going to stage the scene, going there when there were 10+ officers from various branches would be a bit of an odd choice!

As I watched the video I heard the LT say he did not recognize or know 3 men which one or more may have been dressed in plain clothes, no uniform. Sounds like random people to me since there is no log or other documentation having been submitted naming who was present IIUC.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No, we watched the trial. It's the one way you can actually get unbiased information. JMO

Too many people have been watching too many podcasts IMO Like TB

This documentary, featured KAREN READ answering questions.
It was, in Karen’s words, “my testimony.”

 

[kuromiiiilove]

I watched it. Her bumper tapped his vehicle.

<modsnip: Removed snark.> Since the actual experts haven’t reached a definitive conclusion on this, can I ask what specific analysis are you basing that on?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Because I’m sure a special someone will ask for a source:
What to know about the Karen Read murder case and her first murder trial

“She backed into O’Keefe’s car, Yannetti said, in an event that was captured on security camera. He added that authorities did not find the broken pieces of taillight during an initial search of Albert’s yard. They only began finding them later in the day, after Read’s car had been seized, Yannetti said.”

I can’t find the footage right now, but did see it in the most recent Dateline episode on the case. The security footage is from JOK’s home. JOK’s car is in the driveway, and KR clearly bumps him with her back taillight as she leaves. The footage was also shown in the first trial.

There is zero evidence presented her vehicles taillight made contact with John’ vehicle.

It didn’t IMO
Her bumper made contact. That’s what they’re for.

I was shocked Lolly let that slide - it will be addressed this time, IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

I’m not suggesting SERT is lying, I’m questioning the integrity of the evidence given the circumstances. It’s not about accusing SERT. It’s about acknowledging the potential for mishandling or tampering. IMO, this is one of the many points of the investigation that introduces too much reasonable doubt for me to feel that KR should be convicted.

It changed zero facts in the case

IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

<modsnip: Removed snark> Since the actual experts haven’t reached a definitive conclusion on this, can I ask what specific analysis are you basing that on?

You don’t need to be an expert to compare the back ends of vehicle’s height and understand why bumpers exist

IMO

 

[Derph]

I just listened to the cross of Lt O'Hara and I think you are overstating it a bit. He said he did not personally know all of the officers present. Given how many people were there, that is hardly surprising. There is no evidence unknown/random "officers' were present. If you were going to stage the scene, going there when there were 10+ officers from various branches would be a bit of an odd choice!

Yeah I am absolutely NOT overstating that FACT at all. There were no records kept of who went in and out of that crime scene for not minutes, but hours. You can not have just anyone walking in and out of the crime scene without logging that information. That is like Day 1 of Intro to Detective Work Class. Someone's life is on the line here. There are reasons for this protocol of crime scene security. Why? Because it opens the door to speculation and at a minimum doubt. And that torpedoes the entire case and prevents justice from being done. It's stain on the life of JOK that his fellow officers didn't think enough of him to even bother to use the most elementary procedures in investigation. They did the bare minimum. It disgusts me.

I'm constantly amazed at what people are willing to completely ignore and write off as no big deal. If this was just 1 thing you may have a somewhat unstable leg to stand but that's not what we have here. We have at least 40-50 things or more that weren't done properly or that show shady, underhanded behavior by the people that investigated this case.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I just need to get this off my chest.

In the U.S. legal system, a conviction requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Karen Read, as a U.S. citizen, is entitled to the full protection of her constitutional rights. It is not the defense’s responsibility, nor anyone here’s, to prove collusion or misconduct by Canton PD. What should be clear, however, is the sheer number of questionable relationships, chain of custody issues, missing video footage, and witness discrepancies that have surfaced. These all contribute to a reasonable doubt that cannot be overlooked.

All MOO.

Beyond a Reasonable doesn’t mean you leave your common sense & life experiences at the door as a juror
Beyond a Reasonable Doubt doesn’t mean Beyond All Doubt.
If beyond all doubt was the standard, prisons would be empty
IMO

The deviation from standard or optimum evidence collection standards didn’t change the outcome of the facts.
law-enforcement and emergency medical responded to a call for an unconscious person found in the snow.
At the time the SERT team gathered to collect evidence it was a full-blown blizzard. IIRC
They did the best they could under the circumstances and 20” of snow

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

Too many people have been watching too many podcasts IMO Like TB

This documentary, featured KAREN READ answering questions.
It was, in Karen’s words, “my testimony.”

My point remains. Don’t really understand what this has to do with what I said.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

Yeah I am absolutely NOT overstating that FACT at all. There were no records kept of who went in and out of that crime scene for not minutes, but hours. You can not have just anyone walking in and out of the crime scene without logging that information. That is like Day 1 of Intro to Detective Work Class. Someone's life is on the line here. There are reasons for this protocol of crime scene security. Why? Because it opens the door to speculation and at a minimum doubt. And that torpedoes the entire case and prevents justice from being done. It's stain on the life of JOK that his fellow officers didn't think enough of him to even bother to use the most elementary procedures in investigation. They did the bare minimum. It disgusts me.

I'm constantly amazed at what people are willing to completely ignore and write off as no big deal. If this was just 1 thing you may have a somewhat unstable leg to stand but that's not what we have here. We have at least 40-50 things or more that weren't done properly or that show shady, underhanded behavior by the people that investigated this case.

Come on. It was snowing so it’s ridiculous to expect police to effectively investigate something!

 

[kuromiiiilove]

You don’t need to be an expert to compare the back ends of vehicle’s height and understand why bumpers exist

IMO

If it were that simple, accident reconstruction wouldn’t be a profession.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Quoted for the truth.
In most cases documentory makers have their own opinions or agendas. Referring to actual trial court recordings is a far better source of information.

The jury are certainly not allowed to refer to documentaries and opinion peices.

This forum isn’t a jury deliberations room.

Karen’s interview , Karen’s answers

Is Karen bias? You bet. If that’s what you were referring to.

Karen states, in the doc, she viewed it as “her opportunity to testify”

Without the benefit of cross examination of course.

IMO She hoped to influence the jury pool.

 

[mrjitty]

As I watched the video I heard the LT say he did not recognize or know 3 men which one or more may have been dressed in plain clothes, no uniform. Sounds like random people to me since there is no log or other documentation having been submitted naming who was present IIUC.

That isn’t made out by the testimony though. Lt Tully was also there for example. i assume he knew the officers. i think we have to be careful making the claim that unknown people were there just because one guy didn’t know everyone there. Why would SERT guy know everyone from other teams?

This seems more speculative than a fact that was established.

IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

If it were that simple, accident reconstruction wouldn’t be a profession.

It really is that simple though.

A bumper tapping another vehicle isn’t exactly rocket science.

 

[Derph]

Come on. It was snowing so it’s ridiculous to expect police to effectively investigate something!

I know right!! Some are saying that the use of the leaf blower wasn't to uncover any evidence, but to COVER UP evidence. Such a miracle how all the pieces were found not on the road where the supposed incident happened but in the yard where they were conveniently blown to.

That isn’t made out by the testimony though. Lt Tully was also there for example. i assume he knew the officers. i think we have to be careful making the claim that unknown people were there just because one guy didn’t know everyone there. Why would SERT guy know everyone from other teams?

This seems more speculative than a fact that was established.

IMO

That's not the point at all. The point is there is no way of knowing who was there or when they were because there were no logs which goes against the basic principles of crime scene investigation. And your saying on one hand that you assume something and on the other hand that we're speculating! You are contradicting yourself.

 

[mrjitty]

Yeah I am absolutely NOT overstating that FACT at all. There were no records kept of who went in and out of that crime scene for not minutes, but hours. You can not have just anyone walking in and out of the crime scene without logging that information. That is like Day 1 of Intro to Detective Work Class. Someone's life is on the line here. There are reasons for this protocol of crime scene security. Why? Because it opens the door to speculation and at a minimum doubt. And that torpedoes the entire case and prevents justice from being done. It's stain on the life of JOK that his fellow officers didn't think enough of him to even bother to use the most elementary procedures in investigation. They did the bare minimum. It disgusts me.

I'm constantly amazed at what people are willing to completely ignore and write off as no big deal. If this was just 1 thing you may have a somewhat unstable leg to stand but that's not what we have here. We have at least 40-50 things or more that weren't done properly or that show shady, underhanded behavior by the people that investigated this case.

Well again i listened to his testimony and stand by my comment that it doesn’t establish unknown people were there. Just people he didn’t know. I bet Lt Tully didn’t know all the SERT people by the same token.

moo.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I understand your point, but the fact that the evidence was recovered from snow doesn’t eliminate the possibility of it being planted, especially given the timeline and weather conditions. The issue isn’t necessarily about the shovel or the recovery method, but rather the lack of clear documentation and proper chain of custody throughout the entire process. Even if the pieces were found in the snow, the amount of time that passed, the failure to preserve proper records, and the general mishandling of evidence leave enough room for reasonable doubt about how they were recovered and handled.

MOO.

IMO
it doesnt.
Seems like grasping at straws at this point.

A jury or anyone else looking at the evidence would have to twist themselves into a pretzel, and be drunk to even consider everything found was planted.
It’s laughable.

All in my opinion.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm leaning toward Colin jumping in and doing the worst damage. They are trying so hard to protect him that it makes me think he delivered the fatal blow.

This is unacceptable IMO