MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #20 Retrial

[keek]

Personally imo when they put him in the yard they didn’t plan to necessarily frame KR. Perhaps just thought like a hit and run or something would be blamed. I mean if you belief her tail light didn’t get damaged until she was leaving JOKs house that morning, they couldn’t have known that. KR kind of inserted herself by raising the alarm looking for him that morning. She became the easy target to blame and it was JMc that realized this that early morning. All imo.

Yes.

 

[Tortoise]

Except JOK could have been kept sitting up (maybe in the side yard) until after JM made that search at 2:27AM, and after Loughran went by at 2:45AM, and then dumped onto the front yard later.
MOO

Except John's phone didn't move after 12.25am IIRC.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Except John's phone didn't move after 12.25am IIRC.

You are correct that the last recorded health data was 12:24 am - the 36 steps that was potentially him being dropped off. New phone data that was discussed in thread #19 also shows that his phone was manually locked with the side lock button at 12:32 am. His phone then showed no movement until 6am or so.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Except John's phone didn't move after 12.25am IIRC.

Except it was active for 8 seconds closer to 12:30am IIRC.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Except it was active for 8 seconds closer to 12:30am IIRC.

Yes, no Apple Health activity was tracked at that time, but there was an 8 second call around 12:28, from John to Jen McCabe. She confirmed in her testimony they spoke and he was not in distress, but also said the call was ‘brief and odd’.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

When Jen McCabe and Kerry Roberts were in the front seat, I could see them focusing mostly on the snow hitting the windshield, while Karen Read may have had a better (longer/wider) view of distance from her angle in the rear seat.

I can see and agree with this perspective. I can also see someone who is anxious or looking for someone being hyper-vigilant and noticing things others don’t, even when they are in hysterics, because their brain is on high alert.

My earlier comment was in reference to Julie Nagel though and how she was able to see a 5 to six foot dark object on the lawn from the passenger seat behind the driver and over her friend’s Sarah’s soldier. She mentions that it was snowing heavier by the time they left the house so her visibility of the outside was really poor and yet she gave the impression that the object saw may have in fact been JOK. It seems to strengthen CW’s timeline and case, but if her testimony is true then it gives me the impression that JOK’s body had to stand out enough for someone even in Julie’s position, in the back on the opposite side of the car, could notice him even in the snow and the dark. However, if that is the case why didn’t anybody else notice him? Not blaming them or pointing fingers but it does make me wonder or curious because a five to six foot object against the snow would seemingly stand out, especially if it is something that your brain picks up on because it doesn’t belong or you haven’t seen it there before. And true, passengers do have different vantage points and the luxury of getting immersed in the things or environment outside that capture my attention and noticing things others do not. However, I also noticed that when I do drive, especially during a snowstorm or dark road or in a seemingly area, like park or woods, I, like many drivers, tend to become more vigilant as I scan the the the areas ahead of me and notice things that others in the car don’t, like a dead or approaching deer on the road, broken glass or parts of vehicles, pets that got loose and running parallel to me on the street and little kids dashing between cars and on of and off the sidewalk as they throw snowballs at each other. I was just thinking along those lines when thinking about the guests that night leaving the house and drivers and maybe even the front passengers too feeling the same need too to be more vigilant and alert of the roads and areas ahead of and around them and thereby perhaps increasing the chance of them noticing JOK because they were already looking around for any hazards. JMO and again not assigning blame or pointing fingers for not seeing him but I was curious or wondering about it more.

IMO/JMO

 

[arielilane]

Nicole Brown Simpson was stabbed seven times in the neck, a gash across her throat, and she was nearly decapitated.
Ron Goldman received more than 15 stab wounds, which included fatal wounds to his neck, chest and abdomen.

Yet, Karen Read says she would have cheered his acquittal - knowing he was a double murderer!

Karen Read says she would have cheered O.J. Simpson's acquittal and more Vanity Fair interview takeaways

In a new Vanity Fair article released Thursday, Karen Read again reveals how she feels about her case, the investigation, and police in general.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Linda7NJ]

Nicole Brown Simpson was stabbed seven times in the neck, a gash across her throat, and she was nearly decapitated.
Ron Goldman received more than 15 stab wounds, which included fatal wounds to his neck, chest and abdomen.

Yet, Karen Read says she would have cheered his acquittal - knowing he was a double murderer!

Karen Read says she would have cheered O.J. Simpson's acquittal and more Vanity Fair interview takeaways

In a new Vanity Fair article released Thursday, Karen Read again reveals how she feels about her case, the investigation, and police in general.

www.cbsnews.com

Sickening.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, no Apple Health activity was tracked at that time, but there was an 8 second call around 12:28, from John to Jen McCabe. She confirmed in her testimony they spoke and he was not in distress, but also said the call was ‘brief and odd’.

I don't know where this is coming from, and I don't believe it's correct. Please provide a link to that testimony.

This was Jen McCabe's testimony - @1:23:00

AL [Q]: At any point in time when you texted John O'Keefe after you arrived at Fairview did John O'Keefe respond?

JMc [A]: No.

AL [Q]: At any point in time after you arrived at Fairview after you hung up from the 12.18am call in which you were describing where 34 Fairview was in reference to Bella's house did you ever hear from John O'Keefe ever again?

JMc [A]: No.

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[Forest_Wood]

I don't know where this is coming from, and I don't believe it's correct. Please provide a link to that testimony.

This was Jen McCabe's testimony - @1:23:00

AL [Q]: At any point in time when you texted John O'Keefe after you arrived at Fairview did John O'Keefe respond?

JMc [A]: No.

AL [Q]: At any point in time after you arrived at Fairview after you hung up from the 12.18am call in which you were describing where 34 Fairview was in reference to Bella's house did you ever hear from John O'Keefe ever again?

JMc [A]: No.

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I believe it came from JOK's cell phone data analysis.

 

[twhel]

I agree. From my side, I pay no attention to claims about timing from the witnesses, beyond broad strokes that can be corroborated.


As a Pistorius trial veteran who wasted years of my life trying to reconcile 15 mins of events from multiple eye witness testimonies - I completely get this. Mobile phone events at least give you one central clock, but it turns out witnesses can be highly unreliable even on the order of events.



Yes great point. In my view these witnesses tend to do a good job but I think there is a danger of over-reliance on their time estimates. Like I give way more weight to the fact that they saw the Lexus with the defendant inside, than when it was.

One of the things I am interested in for trial is how these times are logged. e.g the router is a different clock to the calls. And are they using the router record or the phone record? And if the phone - how is it logged?

My burning question is if the defendant connects at 12.36 - even if still a bit down the street, what is she doing for the 6 mins until 12.42 when we know she is definitely home?

MOO

mrjitty, I will begin and close with my thanks for your welcoming and perceptive responses to my posts. They've been much appreciated.

Also want to say that I have followed your many, and well nuanced, posts on the double jeopardy issue. I've reviewed the brief submitted by KR's appellate lawyers to the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court and there's a passage in the brief (at p. 47) that expresses the legal corner which (you have rightly pointed out) the defense has painted itself into:

"In this circumstance, where the jury reaches a deadlock without specifying the count(s) on which it has reached an impasse, it is a straightforward (and, the defense contends, constitutionally required) follow-up to ask whether the deadlock relates to some as opposed to all counts."

https://www.bostonherald.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/karen-read-sjc-brief.pdf

This is quite the legal "Hail Mary" because, as you've pointed out, such a procedure could often work to the detriment of criminal defendants and has, on that basis, been cautioned against by the pertinent case law. In its amicus brief, the ACLU does not reach for that argument and, thus, does not offer a rule that would explain why Judge Cannone should have acted differently from the way she did.

As for the upcoming re-trial, it has occurred to me that my engagement with the board has gotten me to the point where, to my own satisfaction, I know not only what "must" have happened outside 34 Fairview but what "did" happen, as far as that is going to be known. The prospect of the entire story being replayed for the benefit of the second jury is, from that perspective, not of great interest.

The testimony of the CW's new crash reconstruction witness will be something new, and I expect I will monitor that, without expecting any major revelations. On the subject of crash reconstruction, and ARCCA, one item that we don't have available to us (as far as I know) is the original written report that ARCCA submitted. If that report were available for examination and dissection, I believe the limitations of the experiments carried out by ARCCA, and of the conclusions that can reasonably be drawn from those experiments, would be more apparent.

My thanks again to you, and to all of have acknowledged my posts, and I will (probably) weigh in again, somewhere down the road.

 

[arielilane]

Karen Read and nine vodka sodas later… Here’s a woman who turned a town upside down because she didnt want to accept accountability for her actions. She, her defense team and her devoted mouthpiece TB and several dedicated YouTubers and the pink circus cult [PCC] excuse everything that KR says and does, all admissions. She’s their bankroll. Duped to think she was framed, conspiracy, be part of this group, make a friend, be a friend, togetherness.

Throwing mud at everything to see what sticks will only go so far.

Keep talking KR. Attorney Brennan is going to have a field day with you.

She is neither smart nor a warrior as PCC claim, she is dumber than a box of rocks. Bravery is owning up to what you did and not blaming innocent people, especially a minor (CA) for your own actions. Ruining lives so that you can live like you're a celebrity and smiling for the cameras makes you look dumb too. In her mind she thinks she is rich and famous, rich from others’ hard earned money. Keep sending money… she needs it. Another suit, botox, filler, hair extensions, all needed for her court appearances.

The pink kool-aid goes down quite easily for the KR PCC. Many admissions later and the KR PCC is strong, but the defense doesnt look as strong as the first go round.

Cant wait to see what the CW have in store for Ms. KR aka wannabe OJ outcome - bet the vehicle data will be quite damning.

Never a heartfelt word for the loss of Officer John O’Keefe or for his family. Never any kindness to others, only worried about self. It’s hard to be a narcissist. No empathy, no thoughts about anyone but your own self importance. Blames everyone else. One would have to feel sorry for her, maybe. She’s not right. Was MP onto something, she is a whack job?

Matter of opinion



Karen Read supporters rally around Massachusetts days before jury selection for second trial begins


Justice for John O'Keefe

 

[rescuemom]

Except it was active for 8 seconds closer to 12:30am IIRC.

Yes and closer to 80 steps either up and down steps

 

[rescuemom]

I can see and agree with this perspective. I can also see someone who is anxious or looking for someone being hyper-vigilant and noticing things others don’t, even when they are in hysterics, because their brain is on high alert.

My earlier comment was in reference to Julie Nagel though and how she was able to see a 5 to six foot dark object on the lawn from the passenger seat behind the driver and over her friend’s Sarah’s soldier. She mentions that it was snowing heavier by the time they left the house so her visibility of the outside was really poor and yet she gave the impression that the object saw may have in fact been JOK. It seems to strengthen CW’s timeline and case, but if her testimony is true then it gives me the impression that JOK’s body had to stand out enough for someone even in Julie’s position, in the back on the opposite side of the car, could notice him even in the snow and the dark. However, if that is the case why didn’t anybody else notice him? Not blaming them or pointing fingers but it does make me wonder or curious because a five to six foot object against the snow would seemingly stand out, especially if it is something that your brain picks up on because it doesn’t belong or you haven’t seen it there before. And true, passengers do have different vantage points and the luxury of getting immersed in the things or environment outside that capture my attention and noticing things others do not. However, I also noticed that when I do drive, especially during a snowstorm or dark road or in a seemingly area, like park or woods, I, like many drivers, tend to become more vigilant as I scan the the the areas ahead of me and notice things that others in the car don’t, like a dead or approaching deer on the road, broken glass or parts of vehicles, pets that got loose and running parallel to me on the street and little kids dashing between cars and on of and off the sidewalk as they throw snowballs at each other. I was just thinking along those lines when thinking about the guests that night leaving the house and drivers and maybe even the front passengers too feeling the same need too to be more vigilant and alert of the roads and areas ahead of and around them and thereby perhaps increasing the chance of them noticing JOK because they were already looking around for any hazards. JMO and again not assigning blame or pointing fingers for not seeing him but I was curious or wondering about it more.

IMO/JMO

to Julie Nagel though and how she was able to see a 5 to six foot dark object on the lawn from the passenger seat behind the driver and over her friend’s Sarah’s soldier.

hmmmm....don't remember her saying that

 

[Seattle1]

to Julie Nagel though and how she was able to see a 5 to six foot dark object on the lawn from the passenger seat behind the driver and over her friend’s Sarah’s soldier.

hmmmm....don't remember her saying that

Witness in Karen Read murder trial testifies to seeing something in snow

A witness in the Karen Read murder trial said Tuesday that she spotted something in the snow near the crime scene.

turnto10.com

DEDHAM, Mass. (WJAR) — A witness in the Karen Read murder trial said Tuesday that she spotted something in the snow near the crime scene.

But she also told the jury she'd been drinking at the time.

"I noticed something out of the ordinary, like a black blob in the ground by the flagpole,” Julie Nagel testified.... "I'd probably say, like, 5 or 6 feet," she said.

 

[arielilane]

She knows the evidence is not looking good against her, its actually overwhelming- so next retooling is jury nullification, the jurors think okay maybe she did this crime, but the message here is the police corruption and poor police work.

She probably no longer believes in the ridiculous conspiracy theory anymore.

Matter of opinion

Karen Read says she would have cheered O.J. Simpson's acquittal and more Vanity Fair interview takeaways

In a new Vanity Fair article released Thursday, Karen Read again reveals how she feels about her case, the investigation, and police in general.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Forest_Wood]

Karen Read and nine vodka sodas later… Here’s a woman who turned a town upside down because she didnt want to accept accountability for her actions. She, her defense team and her devoted mouthpiece TB and several dedicated YouTubers and the pink circus cult [PCC] excuse everything that KR says and does, all admissions. She’s their bankroll. Duped to think she was framed, conspiracy, be part of this group, make a friend, be a friend, togetherness.

Throwing mud at everything to see what sticks will only go so far.

Keep talking KR. Attorney Brennan is going to have a field day with you.

She is neither smart nor a warrior as PCC claim, she is dumber than a box of rocks. Bravery is owning up to what you did and not blaming innocent people, especially a minor (CA) for your own actions. Ruining lives so that you can live like you're a celebrity and smiling for the cameras makes you look dumb too. In her mind she thinks she is rich and famous, rich from others’ hard earned money. Keep sending money… she needs it. Another suit, botox, filler, hair extensions, all needed for her court appearances.

The pink kool-aid goes down quite easily for the KR PCC. Many admissions later and the KR PCC is strong, but the defense doesnt look as strong as the first go round.

Cant wait to see what the CW have in store for Ms. KR aka wannabe OJ outcome - bet the vehicle data will be quite damning.

Never a heartfelt word for the loss of Officer John O’Keefe or for his family. Never any kindness to others, only worried about self. It’s hard to be a narcissist. No empathy, no thoughts about anyone but your own self importance. Blames everyone else. One would have to feel sorry for her, maybe. She’s not right. Was MP onto something, she is a whack job?

Matter of opinion



Karen Read supporters rally around Massachusetts days before jury selection for second trial begins


Justice for John O'Keefe

All of those clowns had many, many drinks that day and night, not just Karen Read.
Why do you suppose those cops and their wives even allowed her to drive drunk that night?
It's clear that not one of them cared about drinking and driving, well, until tragedy struck that is.
KR did speak highly of John O'Keefe on several occasions along with the children too.
In what world do you live where defendants "own up to what you did"? She has every right to plead not guilty and have the charges proven. She has every right to have people support her. She has every right to an adequate defense that focuses on discrepancies.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Anyone who would side with MP's conduct in this case might be considered an actual whack job. He was a twisted cop with astounding behavior!
Matter of opinion

 

[Forest_Wood]

I can see and agree with this perspective. I can also see someone who is anxious or looking for someone being hyper-vigilant and noticing things others don’t, even when they are in hysterics, because their brain is on high alert.

My earlier comment was in reference to Julie Nagel though and how she was able to see a 5 to six foot dark object on the lawn from the passenger seat behind the driver and over her friend’s Sarah’s soldier. She mentions that it was snowing heavier by the time they left the house so her visibility of the outside was really poor and yet she gave the impression that the object saw may have in fact been JOK. It seems to strengthen CW’s timeline and case, but if her testimony is true then it gives me the impression that JOK’s body had to stand out enough for someone even in Julie’s position, in the back on the opposite side of the car, could notice him even in the snow and the dark. However, if that is the case why didn’t anybody else notice him? Not blaming them or pointing fingers but it does make me wonder or curious because a five to six foot object against the snow would seemingly stand out, especially if it is something that your brain picks up on because it doesn’t belong or you haven’t seen it there before. And true, passengers do have different vantage points and the luxury of getting immersed in the things or environment outside that capture my attention and noticing things others do not. However, I also noticed that when I do drive, especially during a snowstorm or dark road or in a seemingly area, like park or woods, I, like many drivers, tend to become more vigilant as I scan the the the areas ahead of me and notice things that others in the car don’t, like a dead or approaching deer on the road, broken glass or parts of vehicles, pets that got loose and running parallel to me on the street and little kids dashing between cars and on of and off the sidewalk as they throw snowballs at each other. I was just thinking along those lines when thinking about the guests that night leaving the house and drivers and maybe even the front passengers too feeling the same need too to be more vigilant and alert of the roads and areas ahead of and around them and thereby perhaps increasing the chance of them noticing JOK because they were already looking around for any hazards. JMO and again not assigning blame or pointing fingers for not seeing him but I was curious or wondering about it more.

IMO/JMO

The first she spoke of that was on the witness stand IIRC. Under cross examination, the defense asked her why she didn't go to the police about this in the following days after JOK's body was found where she said she saw a 5-6 ft black blob. It made no sense that she wouldn't have reported that, after all the interviews and the Grand Jury testimony, her best friend's father being a police officer, and so on.
MOO

 

[keek]

The first she spoke of that was on the witness stand IIRC. Under cross examination, the defense asked her why she didn't go to the police about this in the following days after JOK's body was found where she said she saw a 5-6 ft black blob. It made no sense that she wouldn't have reported that, after all the interviews and the Grand Jury testimony, her best friend's father being a police officer, and so on.
MOO

Said it weakly, I think she was told to to make a 'timeline that JO was out there when they left, others knowing and saying they saw KR's car there earlier. The car that all the Alberts had was seen though towards dawn right where JO was found. The witness who spoke of the dark blob could barely get a sentence together and out, did not seem at all with it or had strong thoughts. I believe at the time she was a nurse. IMO

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

The first she spoke of that was on the witness stand IIRC. Under cross examination, the defense asked her why she didn't go to the police about this in the following days after JOK's body was found where she said she saw a 5-6 ft black blob. It made no sense that she wouldn't have reported that, after all the interviews and the Grand Jury testimony, her best friend's father being a police officer, and so on.
MOO

I think she was told to to make a 'timeline that JO was out there when they left, others knowing and saying they saw KR's car there earlier.

I agree with the defense. I don’t think this part of JN’s testimony make sense. It mainly sticks out to me because of how often brought up and questioned on how was it possible that KR could find and see JOK so easily later that morning unless she knew where she hit him but then along that same line of thinking shouldn’t we in comparison wonder why how did someone in Julie Nagel’s position in the left passenger seat supposedly see JOK in the dark over friend’s shoulder when neither
her vehicle’s driver and none of other drivers or passengers that left previously could not? If the CW’s argument is that that JOK was just covered in snow and that is why no one saw him earlier doesn’t JN’s testimony seem to contradict that? IMO, CW’s argument has to be either that JOK was unfortunately covered with too much snow and it too dark to be noticeable to the other drivers and passengers that left the resident or a portion of his body was visible enough that even someone in JN’s position could see 5 to 6 feet of him, despite peering through the dark and the snow. It is hard to balance or rationalize the idea of somehow it could be both. The CW seemed to think this made this their case and timeline stronger but this new information added to my understanding about why the defense and other members of the public questioned the reliability or truthfulness of some of the CW’s witness, who play a big role in the crime scene, what we were told so far about had happened to JOK, the allege hit and run and the events that happened afterward and some of the holes or gaps and contradictions that occurred in the LE investigation and recreation of the crime scene and the subsequent court case.

I felt this way again in regards to JMc stating in her testimony she saw KR’s car pull up at 12:27 and then pull up towards the flagpole at 12:31 which contradicts digital or phone records that by at least 3-4 minutes when they show JOK’s phone records that show his arrival at 12:24, RN text message to his sister at 12:23 saying he was going to leave and RN’s own testimony that he came in behind KR’s SUV and saw it pull up a car and a half ahead of him so that his friend’s vehicle could park in front by the mailbox. In other words, by 12:27 KR vehicle’s was already near the flag pole, not in front of the home like JMc stated, whereas RN and his friends were parked in front of the house while talking to his sister. Also, by 12:31 shouldn’t KR’s vehicle have already been gone if she is to make back to JOK’s home, 6-7 minutes away, by 12:36 like her car records show? The defense pointed out in trial 1 that during a June 2023 proceeding JMc testified to having a clear view of KR’s SVU and that every time she had texted JOK and she had gotten up and was looking at the SVU through the storm door. However, she texted JOK at 12:27, 12:31, 12:40, 12:42 and 12:45 and after 12:45 meaning she looked outside at the car 6 times. If that was the case though then how could she have possibly seen KR’s vehicle at any of the times she texted at 12:40 and later when it was already gone and at JOK’s home by 12:36, according to KR’s vehicle’s connection records and and parked in the garage according to the voicemail at 12:42? KR would have had to leave the Albert’s house by 12:29 or 12:30 to make it there at that time. If she saw KR’s at 12:31 like she stated, then it had to be while it was driving away, not just pulled up to a spot further away, like she testified. As the defense pointed out she said noticed the car was gone only after 12:45 but if anything she should have noticed the car was nowhere to be seen by at least by the time she sent her texts at 12:40 or 12:42 considering that KR is already at JOK’s by 12:36 and at the same time JMc is texting JOK at 12:42, KR is leaving a voicemail on JOK’s voicemail in which the sounds of heels clacking of her heels against the garage floor could be overhead? If, like defense questioned, she had a good and clear view of the vehicle by the flagpole or a little further, even through the light dusting of snow, how did she miss JOK lying on the front lawn if KR had already allegedly hit him with her car?



And again, when Officer PG testified that based on his analysis JOK’s phone stopped moving at 12:25 and within 3 feet of where his JOK’s body was found. However, if PB was implying that based on the phone or GPS records that at 12:25 JOK was within feet from where his body was found wouldn’t this contradicts RN’s, JN’s and HM’s testimonies that not at any point while they were outside the Alberts home did they see JOK outside the Albert’s home or within the vicinity of KR’s car ahead of them? Furthermore, he also makes the statement that for JOK to travel from the GPS “blows out” as the signal weakens for 6 seconds and includes the house (12:25:30-12:25:36) to the spot where his body with his phone underneath him a second and half later JOK would have to have traveled at 32 mph. However, is PG also then implying with this statement that JOK was struck and incapacitated at 12:25? Doesn’t this also contradict both RN’s, JN’s and HM’s testimonies and JOK’s phone records showing he answered the phone and was on it for 8 seconds at 12:28? JOK couldn’t have answered the phone if tragically he was already incapacitated. How did the CW address or rectify any of that?

And again MMc both told MP during a police interview and later testified in Trial 1, that he did not see JOK in the passenger seat as he noticed KR’s black SUV in front of the house as he looked out through either the front door or window. Considering both that he testified to focusing on the car when it parked in front and since KR’s vehicle’s front windows are not tinted it seems likely that if JOK was in the vehicle he would have certainly seen him. Additionally, this part of his testimony is similar to RN’s and HM’s testimonies that they also saw KR sitting alone in her vehicle with the inside lights on as their vehicle passed her and that they never saw JOK, either standing outside or leaving the vehicle. Wouldn’t this further indicate JOK had gotten out of the vehicle at some point before MMc looked outside and even before RN’s car pulled up behind KR’s? IMO, it also aligns with a statement KR made he wanted to get out and make sure they were at the right house.


To be fair though maybe this is my biased because though because I think JOK and his family deserve justice and they deserved a much better investigators leading the investigation into his death. I also at this point do not believe as of now from what I learned and heard from watching Trial 1 that KR hit JOK with her car or that the case CW presented all together during the first trial was that well put together. But that is just my opinion.

JMT