Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 8

[CaliKid]

Good Post Calikid....one other thing why would the P LE put the friends of the McCanns in the same room as Murat to find out who was telling the truth. That doesnt sound like the right policing protocol to me.

Thanks, Shazza. I read that it's just the way they do things in Portugal.

 

[Pinkhammer]

I saw the father being interviewed by Greta Von S. He is an insufferable name-dropper. All he talks about is himself and the famous people he has met. He barely ever mentions Madeleine's name, except as an afterthought.

Greta seemed very cool towards him...she has good instincts. I bet Greta doesn't even leave her cats alone while she's out at work or on the town. I could sense that she didn't cozy up to McCann at all, as she usually does to her guests who are true victims.

McCann's speech is very low-class. I wonder where he spent his childhood, and in what circumstances. He appears to be from the lower echelons, and his words are barely comprehensible. Definitely did not have a private boarding school education.

He rather relishes his newly-found celebrity status, eve though it is at the expense of the safety, and possibly the life, of his little girl.

An altogether unlikable chap.

 

[april4sky]

"violated community guidlines":waitasec:
Where did that come from?

From the link yesterday!!! Tried again today...Now it says page not found.

 

[Elphaba]

He has a Scottish accent... not sure of what dialect it is, though...

 

[april4sky]

If we only love those who are easy to love what good are we? Any parent who has had a child stolen deserves to have us work towards finding that child without "dissing" them all along the way, (if they did not do the crime against the child.)

I so agree docwho3 :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[CaliKid]

From the link yesterday!!! Tried again today...Now it says page not found.

I tried it again, and it works fine for me.

http://www.geocities.com/hallsofmirrors/SOL.html

 

[CaliKid]

If we only love those who are easy to love what good are we? Any parent who has had a child stolen deserves to have us work towards finding that child without "dissing" them all along the way, (if they did not do the crime against the child.)

But we come right back to who is at fault for leaving Madeleine in the first place.

 

[april4sky]

I tried it again, and it works fine for me.

http://www.geocities.com/hallsofmirrors/SOL.html

Thanks this one works, Previous one has a bracket at the end which must have caused the problem.

 

[Shazza]

But we come right back to who is at fault for leaving Madeleine in the first place.

I agree CaliKid, as I suggested in an earlier post, all the evidence that new posters want to see is in the closed threads of this case, please read all the previous 7 threads to get a better understanding of this case, some of the posters who have been posting right from the beginning cant remember where some of the posts that answer the questions the recent posters are asking.
So go back and read it all, I for one am sick of going over and over the same information everytime a new poster comes onto this thread.

 

[docwho3]

But we come right back to who is at fault for leaving Madeleine in the first place.

No, you only "come right back" to that because you choose to do so, not because that is in any way the logical path to take. Of course anyone may choose to be as single minded as they wish when stating an opinion. Once a certain amount of emotional momentum is built up it is very difficult to change even if someone was the type to attempt it. I disagree with much of the castigation of the parents I have seen but I defend your (the generic "your"- the general public) right to have your own thoughts and to stick to your own opinions just as I have my own thoughts and opinions. If this case is ever solved we may someday know the truth in its entirety which for the moment eludes us.

 

[docwho3]

I will try to respond to some intersting point you made:

. . .docwho3, if you go back to earlier threads about Madeleine, you'll find all sorts of sources, especially in the early days of her disappearance. Many of the news articles that pointed out the parents' inconsistencies are so old you may not be able to access them. . .

I have followed this case from the beginning and am aware of the news articles available but thank you for mentioning them so others may learn of them and go read for themselves.

. . . IMO, there are a few reasons why the parents seem suspicious, the greatest being that they insist it was a kidnapping. Like a child of almost four, who has awakened at least once that week, is incapable of going through an unlocked door and getting lost? . . .

Ok but it has been quite awhile and this is not a wilderness we speak of so if she has not been found by now is it really unreasonable for the parents to think she was kidnapped? I don't mean to be neeedlessly argumentative but I just don't yet understand how their believing their child was kidapped indicates guilt on their part in their daughters disappearance.

. . . But let's assume that Madeleine was abducted. You're Kate McCann, and at 10:00 you walk into your apartment to check on your three children. Oh my gosh! Your oldest daughter is gone! What is happening internally? Your "fight or flight" instinct sends adrenaline pumping through your system, your parental gut intuition to protect your children kicks in, and you need help. Thinking one of your kids has been taken by a stranger, would you leave the other two alone in the apartment? . . .

One of the things about panic is that it can be unpredictable. A lady recently told me that she was at her home in the countryside and some hunters were evidently shooting at anything that moved and shots started landing very close to her and she panicked and instead of hitting the dirt and staying down out of sight she went blindly running accross the field trying to get "away". She said to me that she knew better than to do that when she is calm but in the moment she reacted stupidly. I am not sure that we can draw any conclusions about the parents guilt based on what they did in a possible panic situation.

. . .One question that has been asked over and over is, when was Madeleine last seen by somebody other than her parents or their friends? We're assuming it would at least be late afternoon when she was picked up from the creche. The parents went out to dinner around 8:30. . .

Note: I added the bolding to "assuming".

So if one is theorizing the parents did this crime then we now have an "assumed" time to begin their window of opportunity to commit whatever crime took place. I wish we knew for certain when the last time the child was seen by non family. And by the way, I do not at all mind looking at theories about the parents committing the crime unless or until evidence rules them out and thats the same attitude I use for all potential suspects in a case.

. . .IF the McCanns are involved, I think the death was accidental. It's been suggested that, because people around the apartment were allegedly complaining about the children crying for their parents on the other nights they went out and left them alone, maybe one of them sedated Madeleine and overdosed her. This is an idea, not based on any evidence. . .

An interesting possibility. Now we need to also figure how they got rid of the body with so many witness around if the child is indeed dead by their hand. (I am not making fun of the theory. It might require some convoluted planning on the parents spart but it could have happened. In past cases I have seen parents use kidnapping stories to cover up the death of their own child at the parents hands and sometimes the actual facts turned out to be pretty complicated.)

. . .IF there was some sort of accident that resulted in Madeleine's death, her parents may have panicked, figuring they would be blamed somehow. If Madeleine overdosed on a sedative the parents would probably stand to lose their medical licenses. . .

Hmm doctors not knowing how to handle sedatives with a child. Somehow that does not sound quite right when it is said like that but I suppose a child might have an unforseen reaction to a med.

. . .The sticky part of this scenario is the amount of time they'd have to dispose of Madeleine's body and where to put it. It also calls into play a possible conspiracy theory where all the friends were in on it, but that sounds weird, though not totally unbelievable.
There have been unconfirmed reports that GM was seen dumping a large black bag in a trash bin behind a restaurant. . .

I repeat: (I am not making fun of the theory. It might require some convoluted planning on the parent spart but it could have happened. In past cases I have seen parent use kidnapping stories to cover up the death of their own child at the parents hands and sometimes the actual facts turned out to be pretty complicated.)

. . .If the parents are involved it could be as logical as checking the landfill or using specialized equipment to look for her body in the hills above town. Even if the McCanns didn't hurt Madeleine and she was killed by a pedophile/kidnapper, that's where I think she is.

You posed another interesting thought. L.E. aren't usually stupid so I wonder what made them consider other alternatives. Maybe the dumpster story was checked out and we just don't know but its one of tha many things in this case I wish we knew more about.

I still have no reason to assume the parents did the crime but it is interesting to look at the possibilities of all potential suspects, including mr murat and others.

 

[CaliKid]

Thank you for your questions. We can always use another sleuth.

Ok but it has been quite awhile and this is not a wilderness we speak of so if she has not been found by now is it really unreasonable for the parents to think she was kidnapped? I don't mean to be neeedlessly argumentative but I just don't yet understand how their believing their child was kidapped indicates guilt on their part in their daughters disappearance.

From the very first contact with LE, the McCanns insisted that Madeleine had been kidnapped.

Note: I added the bolding to "assuming".

The McCanns took the children to the creche every morning after breakfast and picked them up at lunchtime. The children spent two hours with the parents, eating lunch, and returned to the creche at 2 pm. Normally the parents picked them up between 4 and 5. The reason I said "assuming" is that, while we have no reason to believe their schedule that day was any different, it has never been established exactly what time the parents picked the kids up. Madeleine and the twins ate dinner and were usually in bed by 7:30 to 8:00.

So if one is theorizing the parents did this crime then we now have an "assumed" time to begin their window of opportunity to commit whatever crime took place. I wish we knew for certain when the last time the child was seen by non family. And by the way, I do not at all mind looking at theories about the parents committing the crime unless or until evidence rules them out and thats the same attitude I use for all potential suspects in a case.

I think this would depend on whether the McCanns prepared the children dinner or took them somewhere for it. If they ate in, that's a lot of time unaccounted for.

Hmm doctors not knowing how to handle sedatives with a child. Somehow that does not sound quite right when it is said like that but I suppose a child might have an unforseen reaction to a med.

Or they could've tried sedating Madeleine earlier in the week and it didn't work very well so they gave her more, ending up with too much. The only reason I say this is because sedation is based on weight, and on ICMEC page her weight is left blank. Maybe they didn't even know it.

 

[Salem]

I will try to respond to some intersting point you made:

Ok but it has been quite awhile and this is not a wilderness we speak of so if she has not been found by now is it really unreasonable for the parents to think she was kidnapped?

One of the things about panic is that it can be unpredictable. A lady recently told me that she was at her home in the countryside and some hunters were evidently shooting at anything that moved and shots started landing very close to her and she panicked and instead of hitting the dirt and staying down out of sight she went blindly running accross the field trying to get "away".

I wish we knew for certain when the last time the child was seen by non family.

In past cases I have seen parents use kidnapping stories to cover up the death of their own child at the parents hands and sometimes the actual facts turned out to be pretty complicated.

Maybe the dumpster story was checked out and we just don't know but its one of tha many things in this case I wish we knew more about.

I still have no reason to assume the parents did the crime but it is interesting to look at the possibilities of all potential suspects, including mr murat and others.

Docwho3 - I'm not Calikid - but I did want to post some thoughts. I have edited your return post to Calikid for the sake of space.

First - the search of the area. I would agree that it is not really a wilderness so something would have turned up by now. Also, recently, I read an old media link (sorry I'm not sure which one) that indicated that an extensive ground search and an extensive door to door search were conducted. However, it was very frustrating to read the media reports of the P-LE handling of the search in the area identified by the Dutch pyschic. P-LE did not want to search, after much pressure by the media, finally approximately a dozen of them searched a very large area for approximately 1.5 hours.

Then the reports of the towel..... whatever happened with that?

Does it make it reasonable to think she was abducted because she has not turned up somewhere? Not in my mind. Unless there is a reason why it is not possible that she walked out of the apartment by herself - then this should be the first line of inquiry. She could very well have gone to play in the ocean.....

Second - while I agree with your assessment of what might happen when you are in a panic, generally speaking, when a person finds themselves in such a position, it is not uncommon to: 1) check self for injury, potential harm and react accordingly; 2) once self is covered, do a mental check of where those of importance might be - run through your mind wife/husband/children/parents; 3) at this point - if you are safe, almost always you will check to be sure your "immediate" others are safe. As a parent, this is your first priority, it is second nature; 4) you do what is necessary to protect your "immediate" others.

I do not believe a parent, who just discovered her child missing, would abandon her 2 other children, even for a moment. There were so many options here.... picking up the phone, standing outside the door and screaming, taking the children with her. Having given this quite a bit of thought - picking up the phone might have seemed like a "nonoption" knowing the person on the other end would speak Portugese, not English - discard this immediately because you have no time not to be understood. Standing outside the door and screaming - definite option, after all the Tapas Bar was within sight of the apartment, but maybe being of a more reserved culture, this type of behavior would be unacceptable to a panic'ed mind. Picking up the remaining 2 children and running for cover - totally acceptable on all accounts, except one... leaving the apartment without knowing where the 3rd child was. To my mind - it would be extremely difficult to walk/run out of that apartment not knowing where the 3rd child was.... Having gone through the safety issues related to my "immediate" others - GM waiting for me, twin 1 in bed, twin 2 in bed, Madeleine missing....., double check, still missing, twins still there, okay... I need help.... she's not in the bathroom, she's not under the bed, I need help.... where is she, need GM, what do I do? what do I do? phone - they won't understand, call GM - he doesn't have his cell phone (I don't have my cell phone), call him from the door (then I'll make quite the scene), go get him.... go get him.... the twins, what about the twins????? what do I do??? I need GM, Madeleine is missing, I need help.... go get him.

Okay - that was quite interesting. I have just talked my self out of the argument I wanted to make. In her shoes, if I was panic'ed, my thought is I would go get my husband. No way around it. He takes care of us, he always knows what to do. I would go get my husband. Now being the very vocal person that I am, I woud have stood at the top of the stairs and screamed for him, but I can understand NOW why she might not have.

As for your other comments - I agree. I wish we had more information. Even though I have just worked my way to understanding how she might have gone back to the Bar, leaving the other two children in harm's way, this story still does not ring true.

The last thing I would like to point out is that Jane's description of the egghead was very detailed. There were several media reports that pointed out that as described by Jane, the man with the child had "longish" hair in the back, reaching the collar. Media also reported that Mr. Murat has never had such a haircut, always keeping his hair well above the collar.

Salem

 

[Shazza]

Originally Posted by docwho3
Hmm doctors not knowing how to handle sedatives with a child. Somehow that does not sound quite right when it is said like that but I suppose a child might have an unforseen reaction to a med.



The bolded section is what I have a problem with, you saying being doctors not knowing how to handle sedatives with a child, doesnt sit right with me either, but being doctors surely they understand the danger that they put their children in by leaving them alone at night in a strange country in a room with an unlocked door, and saying their children were checked every half hour. The staff at the restaurant said that none of those parents left the table whilst their for dinner. So who do we believe.

 

[docwho3]

Docwho3 - I'm not Calikid - but I did want to post some thoughts. I have edited your return post to Calikid for the sake of space. . .

I am glad you posted. We are here to do what little bit of good we can.

. . .First - the search of the area. I would agree that it is not really a wilderness so something would have turned up by now. Also, recently, I read an old media link (sorry I'm not sure which one) that indicated that an extensive ground search and an extensive door to door search were conducted. However, it was very frustrating to read the media reports of the P-LE handling of the search in the area identified by the Dutch pyschic. P-LE did not want to search, after much pressure by the media, finally approximately a dozen of them searched a very large area for approximately 1.5 hours. . .

I can well understand L.E. not wanting to take the word of a psychic. It may be frustrating for the public to think that L.E. does not jump up and spend money to send in searchers over every unsubstantiated thing that comes along but that is the way it is so I suppose we will have to live with the situation.

. . .Then the reports of the towel..... whatever happened with that? . . .

I will have to read up on that detail as it escapes my memory for now. Perhaps someone else can post a comment to recap and update us on the outcome of that, if the outcome is known. I will also try to find time to read up on it again myself.

. . .Does it make it reasonable to think she was abducted because she has not turned up somewhere? Not in my mind. . . .

Ok, for the sake of discussion I can go along with that thought to a point. So I guess I am wondering how the parents are guilty of murder because they assumed it was an abduction? If they had went along with the thought she just wandered away it might have made them look more innocent to some of the public and these are educated people who could well have tailored their comments to fit public expectations. The fact that they did not do so makes them seem less like a perp to me but it is not a reason in and of itself to declare them innocent or guilty of anything. We also do not know where the idea of a kidnapping came from. It may have issued from their lips but was the belief planted by L.E. or by murat or others nearby?

. . .Unless there is a reason why it is not possible that she walked out of the apartment by herself - then this should be the first line of inquiry. She could very well have gone to play in the ocean.....

And the body is where? It was searched for but missed and then eaten by fish? I suppose thats a possibility (with the stipulation that I have not been pouring over maps of the area to see how far away and what barriers existed, both physical and in the form of adults such as life guards etc., to have prevented a child making it to the sea unnattended.)

. . .generally speaking, when a person finds themselves in such a position, it is not uncommon to: 1) check self for injury, potential harm and react accordingly; 2) once self is covered, do a mental check of where those of importance might be - run through your mind . . .

You base this list on what stats from where and /or what extensive experience with those in a panic? Or is this just what you believe sounds reaonable based on what you think you would do in a panic situation? I don't mean to be rude or needlessly argumentative but I want to know source material before accepting some list of facts and that is why I asked.

. . .As for your other comments - I agree. I wish we had more information. Even though I have just worked my way to understanding how she might have gone back to the Bar, leaving the other two children in harm's way, this story still does not ring true. . .

I get it that you feel the story does not ring true to you and I accept that statement. You don't have to know why it seems off you just know it seems wrong to you somehow. Somewhere and somehow someone will need to connect the dots to show how and why the crime was committed and to show what crime was committed and then to connect it to the parents. But having a feeling that the story is not right is at least a starting point for more investigation.

. . .The last thing I would like to point out is that Jane's description of the egghead was very detailed. There were several media reports that pointed out that as described by Jane, the man with the child had "longish" hair in the back, reaching the collar. Media also reported that Mr. Murat has never had such a haircut, always keeping his hair well above the collar. . .

Allegedly these sightings were all checked out by L.E. If they have believe they know who was seen and have not tied these sightings to the case anymore then I do not know how to justify comparing those sightings to mr murat or to the alleged kidnapper.

At some point I may have a bit more to post about mr murat (nothing that is not already available online) but for now I don't want to add to the length of this post.

 

[Kizzbo]

Originally Posted by Shazza
Good Post Calikid....one other thing why would the P LE put the friends of the McCanns in the same room as Murat to find out who was telling the truth. That doesnt sound like the right policing protocol to me.

Thanks, Shazza. I read that it's just the way they do things in Portugal.

This Portuguese legal process is called "acareação"

Generally what is done is to gather all witnesses and suspects at the same table for a confrontation with different testimonies. When this happens, it means each witness gives different details. So, if they did this, we can deduce with 100% accuracy, there are different versions for what happened on that night.

Let's say, what might have happened is the witnesses said they saw Murat that night - they have to say it in front of him. Then, he can refute all those testimonies, by saying "how can you say that, if by that time, I was at the place X, with the person Y" [something like that].

After this "confrontation" everything is written down in the process.

We are given to understand from the latest reports that the 3 McCann friends went in to face Murat individually (rather than together). What really "struck me" about the confrontation is that Fiona Payne was left alone in the room with Murat and the police watched through a two-way mirror. Why? (Oh, I can theorise.....)

 

[docwho3]

. . .saying being doctors not knowing how to handle sedatives with a child, doesnt sit right with me either, but being doctors surely they understand the danger that they put their children in by leaving them alone at night in a strange country in a room with an unlocked door, and saying their children were checked every half hour. The staff at the restaurant said that none of those parents left the table whilst their for dinner. . . .

Note: I added the bolding on part of the quote of your post.

Actually I hope the parents made multiple trips and that staff are wrong otherwise one of my little theories about possible parental involvement in the disappearance of the child must be discarded. Not that I can't stand being wrong but I am as lazy as the next guy and scrapping one theory means I might have to work harder on others.

I do have a question for readers: Does anyone recall if it was released when this little dinner getaway of theparents was arranged? I mean was it a long standing plan or a last minute sort of affair?

 

[Shazza]

This Portuguese legal process is called "acareação"

Generally what is done is to gather all witnesses and suspects at the same table for a confrontation with different testimonies. When this happens, it means each witness gives different details. So, if they did this, we can deduce with 100% accuracy, there are different versions for what happened on that night.

Let's say, what might have happened is the witnesses said they saw Murat that night - they have to say it in front of him. Then, he can refute all those testimonies, by saying "how can you say that, if by that time, I was at the place X, with the person Y" [something like that].

After this "confrontation" everything is written down in the process.

We are given to understand from the latest reports that the 3 McCann friends went in to face Murat individually (rather than together). What really "struck me" about the confrontation is that Fiona Payne was left alone in the room with Murat and the police watched through a two-way mirror. Why? (Oh, I can theorise.....)

Hey Kizzbo, I too can theorise, but then I would probably be accused of not having the evidence to back it up. Thanks for your time in explaining why they did what they did with Murat and the other guys.

 

[Kizzbo]

He has a Scottish accent... not sure of what dialect it is, though...

It is Glaswegian (born in Glasgow)

 

[docwho3]

This Portuguese legal process is called . . .

Thank you for a very helpful post.