Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[SapphireSteel]

I personally think it's quite obvious that the police weren't up to standards, especially at the beginning. More and more is coming out now too concerning what they didn't do and should have done. I'm not saying the LE over here in the UK are perfect, because we know that they aren't but I do believe they are a lot more efficient and professional. I get the impression that it's those who want the McCanns to be guilty who can see no wrong with regards to the Portuguese investigation. Also, I thought the same with regards to the Ben Needham investigation, as that was quite shoddy as well. In that case they had complete tunnel vision and couldn't see beyond the Needham family being involved. That's no way to run an investigation into a missing child. I also think that valuable time was wasted on the day of both children's disappearance, which wouldn't have happened here, IMO.

Have you actually read the PJ files or even the Archive Summary?

Thousands and thousands of pages of diligences. If you haven't read them or even cast your eye over the summary, you cannot judge them poorly. It looks like an absolute shed load of work to me, despite zero cooperation from those who should have been cooperating from Day 1.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id199.html

The thing that stopped the PJ was the non cooperation of the McCanns who by then were the main suspects...indeed, they were suspect from the first hour.

How can this be the PJ's fault?

Why doesn't anyone criticise the "crack team of detectives" that the McCann spent millions of donated pounds on, yet who failed to even recognise the night crèche?

:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

There's plenty about Portugal I do not trust, after this case - they brought it on themselves, IMO.

I used to live right across the St Lawrence Seaway from Canada - who can afford to live in that frigid clime?

As for reading comprehension, it took two posts to...aw, never mind. Carry on.

The PJ brought Madeleine's disappearance on themselves?

The non-cooperation from the parents too? The international political pressure also?

What about the British police who were there at the beginning - they escape blame entirely do they?

:scared:

 

[SapphireSteel]

From the Huffpo article -

Kate and Gerry McCann hand-picked a team of former MI5 agents after becoming fed up with the pace and direction of the original Portuguese investigation.

The intelligence report was kept secret for five years as it was deemed "hyper-critical" of the McCanns and their friends, reports the Sunday Times.

(Plus the efit was clearly Gerry - ed)

The contents were only made public after Scotland Yard investigators requested a copy when conducting a fresh review of the case

E-fits of a man seen at the time of Madeleine's disappearance shown on a special edition of Crimewatch last week and presented as new evidence are in fact from the 2008 report.

Detectives also said the accepted version of events surrounding the disappearance the little girl in 2007 had "significantly changed".

One of the authors of the 2008 report said he was "utterly stunned" the evidence had been presented in such a way.

Henri Exton, MI5’s former undercover operations chief, who led the group, confirmed they had been silenced by the McCanns.

He said: "A letter came from their lawyers binding us to the confidentiality of the report."

LOL they even lawyered up against their own investigators.

Tell me - what innocent parent does this?

:sick:

I point you all to the clip of Dave Edgar, one of those "crack detectives" and the fact that he is clearly lying when he said they found "absolutely nothing" to implicate the McCanns.

They found a lot - just like the British police did, and the PJ.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Do they still have the fund going?

Of course.

"The Fund" was quickly made into a private company, which means they can keep the details to themselves, in regards to spending. And they have.

A lot of the money went to pay fancy lawyers, still is, and guess what, the remainder will be drained when the McCanns are FINALLY charged with everything they have done.

Let alone the money they spent on their "crack team of detectives" whos findings they immediately supressed.


:cow:

:seeya:

 

[SapphireSteel]

From the Huffpo article -

Kate and Gerry McCann hand-picked a team of former MI5 agents after becoming fed up with the pace and direction of the original Portuguese investigation.

The intelligence report was kept secret for five years as it was deemed "hyper-critical" of the McCanns and their friends, reports the Sunday Times.

(Plus the efit was clearly Gerry - ed)

The contents were only made public after Scotland Yard investigators requested a copy when conducting a fresh review of the case

E-fits of a man seen at the time of Madeleine's disappearance shown on a special edition of Crimewatch last week and presented as new evidence are in fact from the 2008 report.

Detectives also said the accepted version of events surrounding the disappearance the little girl in 2007 had "significantly changed".

One of the authors of the 2008 report said he was "utterly stunned" the evidence had been presented in such a way.

Henri Exton, MI5’s former undercover operations chief, who led the group, confirmed they had been silenced by the McCanns.

He said: "A letter came from their lawyers binding us to the confidentiality of the report."

LOL they even lawyered up against their own investigators.

Tell me - what innocent parent does this?

:sick:

I point you all to the clip of Dave Edgar, one of those "crack detectives" and the fact that he is clearly lying when he said they found "absolutely nothing" to implicate the McCanns.

They found a lot - just like the British police did, and the PJ.

The British rags are ignoring this article.

Why?

Would they ignore an article that slammed Amaral? Hardly...dozens have been printed.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Now we have the following -

The PJ developed evidence against the McCanns
The British Police developed evidence against the McCanns
Their own detectives developed evidence against the McCanns.

When oh when are the McCann supporters going to admit that there's evidence implicating them?

It has been found, published, found again, not published, found again -

Lawyers letters to silence their own investigators??????????????

:scared:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I am starting to suspect the 30 minute/30 second visit from Payne is when Madeleine died.

That lie was told for a reason.

 

[jigzy]

SapphireSteel, can I ask why? Also, have you ruled out death and cover up earlier in the week? Tia

 

[Hexe]

SapphireSteel, can I ask why? Also, have you ruled out death and cover up earlier in the week? Tia

Maddie couldn't die earlier in the week, as she was in the creche the day of the alleged kidapping. She was signed in and signed out, and I don't think that her caregiver in there could confuse her with some other girl. I don't also believe in a substitute theory, the creche staff would have get totally blind to not recognize that it wasn't the same girl they had under their care for the last few days.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Maddie couldn't die earlier in the week, as she was in the creche the day of the alleged kidapping. She was signed in and signed out, and I don't think that her caregiver in there could confuse her with some other girl. I don't also believe in a substitute theory, the creche staff would have get totally blind to not recognize that it wasn't the same girl they had under their care for the last few days.

I do think it is entirely possible that with all the up and down & coming and going to & from that night. The Tappas clan just went along with what Gerry said about times as he wrote them down.
It's entirely possible they simply replied on and trusted the McCanns, In the panic of the moment, I'd bet they all deferred to the McCanns timeline.

I'd love to know ... In retrospect, if they have any doubts.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Fierljepper]

My thought has always been, if Maddie interrupted a burglar, the apartment would have been burgaled.

They were not. Everything was just as they left it...except Madeleine.

Thanks SapphireSteel (nice Nick!), but that is a fallacy. If it rains the street gets wet, but if the street is wet you cannot conclude that it has rained.

In the scenario I describe, it was a burglar caught in the act by Maddie who thereby interrupted the burglary process and then the situation getting worsened by MO entering the building as well and the burglar trapped with Maddie in the parent's bedroom. Once MO left the apartment the first burglar's mind was no longer on burglary but on how this burglary and the hurt child could be linked (or how not taking the child with him would not give him sufficient time to get out, or even worse the burglar was somebody from the park that Maddie knew by face e.g. from the child care).

What I like about it is the absolute simplicity. Just one burglar, no collusion and a reason (although agree not very strong) to take Maddie (for a while).

Also not the hard evidence that burglaries, via the window, at dinner time actually were happening in block 5 in that period.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I do think it is entirely possible that with all the up and down & coming and going to & from that night. The Tappas clan just went along with what Gerry said about times as he wrote them down.
It's entirely possible they simply replied on and trusted the McCanns, In the panic of the moment, I'd bet they all deferred to the McCanns timeline.

I'd love to know ... In retrospect, if they have any doubts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

They all knew.

Payne spoke of their "pact" of silence.

Tanners lies have now been completely exposed.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thanks SapphireSteel (nice Nick!), but that is a fallacy. If it rains the street gets wet, but if the street is wet you cannot conclude that it has rained.

In the scenario I describe, it was a burglar caught in the act by Maddie who thereby interrupted the burglary process and then the situation getting worsened by MO entering the building as well and the burglar trapped with Maddie in the parent's bedroom. Once MO left the apartment the first burglar's mind was no longer on burglary but on how this burglary and the hurt child could be linked (or how not taking the child with him would not give him sufficient time to get out, or even worse the burglar was somebody from the park that Maddie knew by face e.g. from the child care).

What I like about it is the absolute simplicity. Just one burglar, no collusion and a reason (although agree not very strong) to take Maddie (for a while).

Unfortunately The Burglar Theory and The Abductor Theory do not explain the lies of the McCann.

Indeed nothing explains them suppressing the e-fit and suing the pants off everyone except GUILT.

:moo:

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel, can I ask why? Also, have you ruled out death and cover up earlier in the week? Tia

Yes I have completely ruled that out.

Madeleine was seen by crèche staff that day.

The "checking" was only started that day too.

The 30 minute/30 second visit by Payne was a lie, and indicates to me at least that that is when she died OR just after she died.

I am hoping and praying that my worst suspicions are not correct - that she died while being raped by Payne with her mother's permission.

:sick:

 

[Fierljepper]

Unfortunately The Burglar Theory and The Abductor Theory do not explain the lies of the McCann.

Indeed nothing explains them suppressing the e-fit and suing the pants off everyone except GUILT.

:moo:

That is the same fallacy I am afraid and not an argument against the scenario. You should take the burglar/abduction theory in isolation and take all the discrepancies in statements of the Tapas 9 etc. (of which literally none leads to any conclusive evidence) simply as magnified noise from sloppy individual memories (note that the brain is a notoriously deceptive part of the body and discrepancies in statements easily emerge in any criminal/high stress case). Starting the media frenzy so early is probably the biggest mistake the McCanns made. If I was in there shoes, I also would be 'suing the pants of everyone' by now!

 

[haden]

They all knew.

Payne spoke of their "pact" of silence.

Tanners lies have now been completely exposed.

How can you claim something like this with an absolute certainty. Like you were there.
You claim that 7 people would cover up a death of a child. And even though some of these people were not close friends at all..
For example in Matt Oldfield rogatory interview he mentions that he only sew McCanns few times before this event. They just had the same friends and this is how him and his wife were there..

So, it seems you think that people McCanns saw only few times in their life would cover up a death of their daughter.

Impossible!

I would more be inclined to believe that 'the friends' they don't know enough are somehow implicated in Madeleine's abduction and that parents did not take this into their account!

 

[SapphireSteel]

That is the same fallacy I am afraid and not an argument against the scenario. You should take the burglar/abduction theory in isolation and take all the discrepancies in statements of the Tapas 9 etc. (of which literally none leads to any conclusive evidence) simply as magnified noise from sloppy individual memories (note that the brain is a notoriously deceptive part of the body and discrepancies in statements easily emerge in any criminal/high stress case). Starting the media frenzy so early is probably the biggest mistake the McCanns made. If I was in there shoes, I also would be 'suing the pants of everyone' by now!

I have taken them into consideration and eliminated them. Just like the PJ.

Missing child investigations focus on ruling out family first. These two were never able to be ruled out in the first place, lied, schemed, and refused to cooperate.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a waste of time looking around for a horse.

What is your explanation for the McCanns supressing the efits by legal means?

There is absolutely no explanation for this whatsoever.

I wonder if Gerry's blog mentions issuing the legal letter against their own detectives....? Did Kate's diary mention that tiny detail?

 

[SapphireSteel]

How can you claim something like this with an absolute certainty. Like you were there.
You claim that 7 people would cover up a death of a child. And even though some of these people were not close friends at all..
For example in Matt Oldfield rogatory interview he mentions that he only sew McCanns few times before this event. They just had the same friends and this is how him and his wife were there..

So, it seems you think that people McCanns saw only few times in their life would cover up a death of their daughter.

Impossible!

I would more be inclined to believe that 'the friends' they don't know enough are somehow implicated in Madeleine's abduction and that parents did not take this into their account!

Pretty much the same way the pro McCanns have slandered the PJ and Amaral as incompetent fools over and over.

It's my opinion.

There are certain facts in this case, and the new investigation is leading one way only.

:moo:

 

[Hexe]

How can you claim something like this with an absolute certainty. Like you were there.
You claim that 7 people would cover up a death of a child. And even though some of these people were not close friends at all..
For example in Matt Oldfield rogatory interview he mentions that he only sew McCanns few times before this event. They just had the same friends and this is how him and his wife were there..

So, it seems you think that people McCanns saw only few times in their life would cover up a death of their daughter.

Impossible!

Entirely possible if the friends had their own sins and McCanns knew it. It's pretty easy for a doctor to lose his (or her) job and reputation.

 

[Fierljepper]

I have taken them into consideration and eliminated them. Just like the PJ.

Missing child investigations focus on ruling out family first. These two were never able to be ruled out in the first place, lied, schemed, and refused to cooperate.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a waste of time looking around for a horse.

What is your explanation for the McCanns supressing the efits by legal means?

There is absolutely no explanation for this whatsoever.

I wonder if Gerry's blog mentions issuing the legal letter against their own detectives....? Did Kate's diary mention that tiny detail?

That is indeed a good point and agree should be the start of any missing child investigation.

However collusion amongst Tapas 9 I don't buy (not without one breaking out in the end), but GM/MM together concocting something could be an option (because they are the parents). However with Tapas 9 collusion ruled out, their witness statements must be sincere. That implies GM/MM's reactions that night were perfectly normal, and it implies they were good parents for their children (pls don't start the 'but they left them alone in the apartment'...) and also when hell broke loose, they were really stressed sincerely panicking with the associated stress symptoms. It just doesn't add up. Either they all colluded and gave concocted positive messages about the McCanns or they were not colluding and actually made true and sincere statements about GM & MM. But you can't have it both and that's precisely what destroys most of these scenarios!