Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[Little Jedi]

If you donate your organs they can use it for anything.

Skin is an organ

Personally I'd be thrilled to be laid out on a body farm somewhere.

I don't think we have anything like the body farms in the U.S. here.

But yes I'm sure you're right about using donated organs for whatever they want.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

BBM. DNA from a source other than blood.

So your talking about touch DNA from skin cells? It could be expected to be almost anywhere a person was at. It's also pretty easy to transfer right?

 

[BOESP]

So your talking about touch DNA from skin cells? It could be expected to be almost anywhere a person was at. It's also pretty easy to transfer right?

BBM. No. Your question was, "What is non-blood DNA?" DNA can come from any bodily fluid, dentine, buggers (sorry), etc. That's what I was addressing.

Touch DNA is not the same and yes Touch DNA can transfer in a number of ways. Determining whether TDNA (Touch DNA) is inclusive, exclusive, or incidental requires much more information than just finding it. Touch DNA comes from skin cells.

Actually, I was answering for SapphireSteel because he/she had already logged off.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

BBM. No. Your question was, "What is non-blood DNA?" DNA can come from any bodily fluid, dentine, buggers (sorry), etc. That's what I was addressing.

Touch DNA is not the same and yes Touch DNA can transfer in a number of ways. Determining whether TDNA (Touch DNA) is inclusive, exclusive, or incidental requires much more information than just finding it. Touch DNA comes from skin cells.

Actually, I was answering for SapphireSteel because he/she had already logged off.

I guess it would have been easier if the original poster said what the source of the DNA was. The "it's not this" leaves it open to it being "who knows what it is."

Since you don't know what she meant I'll wait until she comes back and tells us.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It's part of the source documents, sorry I assume everyone knows what the PJ's final report says. :scared:

From this report, sbm for brevity and relevance -


In this way, from pages 1989 and following, one can read the full report by MARK HARRISON, whose specialty is the search for missing people or homicide victims, including catastrophe scenarios. He provided the use of canines, specialized in the detection of vestiges of human blood and human cadaver odor.

This is an inspection technique commonly used in the United Kingdom, frequently with positive results, consisting of the utilization of two especially trained dogs.

One of the dogs is trained to detect cadaver odor and the other to detect vestiges of human blood, with existing knowledge that their prior usage had resulted in significant results, principally in the detection of vestiges, which had then been, later, confirmed in the laboratory.

After a positive joint meeting with the British police, it was decided to use this capability and a large number of objects and locations were examined, with these diligences being recorded in films which are included in the documentation (appendix III).

In some of these locations and objects, the animals exhibited the behaviour of identification and "signaling", including:

pages 37 and 38

1 - Apartment 5A, of the resort 'Ocean Club', place from where the child disappeared.

- cadaver odour dog:
*in the couple’s bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe;
*in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment;

- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog);

2 – Area of the backyard, close to the apartment 5A:

- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, commented by the dog handler the lightness of the scent detected;

6 – In the clothes and belongings of the Family MCCANN

- cadaver odour dog:
* in two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY
* in a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE
* in the plush toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (it was detected cadaver odour, when the plush was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)

7 – In the vehicle used by the MCCANN family


- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle;

- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle;
* signalled the interior of the vehicle’s boot;

8 – In the vehicle used by a friend of the family, who stayed in the same resort, matching some of the holiday days.

(in a total of ten vehicles, the cadaver odour dog and the blood odour dog only signaled the vehicle that belonged to the MCCANN family, which was rented on the 27th of May)

On the locations and the pieces that were marked and signaled by the blood dog, forensics tests were performed, especially at a reputed British laboratory (Forensic Science Service – check Appendixes I and VII – FSS Final Report) but also, some of them at the reputed National Institute of Forensics Medicine (check Appendix I), whose final results did not corroborate the canine markings, which is to say, cellular material was collected that was not identified as pertaining to anyone specific, and it was not even possible to determine the quality of that material (v.g. whether it could be blood or another type of bodily fluid).

But during a first scientific approach (pages 2617 and following), the possibility of a match between the DNA profile of MADELEINE and some of the collected residues (among which those that existed in the Renault Scenic that had been rented by the McCANN couple were abundant) was raised; a match which, as can be verified in the aforementioned final report from the FSS, failed to be verified, after the execution of long and complex testing.

Based on the action of the canine team and the aforementioned initial scientific approach, which revealed the possibility of the existence of a cadaver inside the apartment and in the vehicle that was used by the MCCANN family, and in order to allow for GERALD McCANN and KATE HEALY to see their position within the process safeguarded, they were made arguidos, in face of the mere possibility of their involvement with the possible cadaver. During the questioning as arguidos, they denied any responsibility in the disappearance of their daughter.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html

So, the bodily fluid was not blood but IIRC Amaral thought it was decomposition fluids, the sample in the Renault anyway.

ETA: I sincerely hope that advances in DNA will make this test more definitive in future, regarding whose it is and how it got there.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

cellular material was collected that was not identified as pertaining to anyone specific, and it was not even possible to determine the quality of that material (v.g. whether it could be blood or another type of bodily fluid)

SBM

This is what I found most interesting from your post. They collected cellular material that was basically useless in the investigation. MOO.

 

[BOESP]

SBM

This is what I found most interesting from your post. They collected cellular material that was basically useless in the investigation. MOO.

This is what I found most interesting in SapphireSteel's post. The dogs hit on a cadaver scent but the science available at this time can not identify what fluid came from the cadaver nor which cadaver it came from.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The inexplicable part is that DNA was found at all, at all of the alert sites.

This tells me the dogs alerted correctly - the science has backed them up.

Why would a cadaver dog alert to cuddle cat? No one has a good explanation for that one. Cadaver alerts on cuddle cat indicates that Madeleine died in 5a, holding or somehow laying on cuddle cat.

Further, the PJ report specifically says the dogs are highly accurate.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This is what I found most interesting in SapphireSteel's post. The dogs hit on a cadaver scent but the science available at this time can not identify what fluid came from the cadaver nor which cadaver it came from.

Every year we hear of advances in DNA testing.



It's all so Shakespearean - out damned spot!

No matter how much scrubbing is done, the spot remains. It was true 600 years ago and it's true now.

Another Shakespeare quote which seems extremely pertinent -

Nay, indeed, if you had your eyes, you might fail of
the knowing me: it is a wise father that knows his
own child. Well, old man, I will tell you news of
your son: give me your blessing: truth will come
to light; murder cannot be hid long; a man's son
may, but at the length truth will out.

lease:

 

[aa9511]

The inexplicable part is that DNA was found at all, at all of the alert sites.

This tells me the dogs alerted correctly - the science has backed them up.

Why would a cadaver dog alert to cuddle cat? No one has a good explanation for that one. Cadaver alerts on cuddle cat indicates that Madeleine died in 5a, holding or somehow laying on cuddle cat.

Further, the PJ report specifically says the dogs are highly accurate.

bbm

So sad.

Kate says in her interviews how Madeleine's cuddle cat was "always with her." It would make sense that she was holding it or it was somehow on her when she died.

 

[aa9511]

Well someone's lying.

It's either AR, the McCanns, or the dogs and the entire PJ.

Pick a team - which one is most trustworthy?

I'm backing the dogs, they have no ulterior motive.

The dogs say M died in 5a.

:seeya:

And we have to remember that the MAJORITY of people believe the McCanns. I read some of the reviews of her book on Amazon....Lordy. They have bought their story hook, line, and sinker (not talking about anyone on here, just speaking of the "glowing" reviews she got on Amazon). There were only a small, small minority who gave her 1 or 2 stars and talked about any of the real facts in the case (in the reviews).

So AR has big incentive to try to keep the British public "happy" and not take them to a dark place.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SBM

This is what I found most interesting from your post. They collected cellular material that was basically useless in the investigation. MOO.

The important part is that they swabbed all over, and the only the areas the dogs alerted to showed a DNA result.

Instead of saying "the cups half empty" ie, we got DNA but it's useless, you could look at it "half full", sleuthing wise, as needing an explanation for occurring in these unusual and isolated places in the first place.

They swabbed a million places and DNA consistent with Madeleine's was located in both the cadaver and the blood alert sites only. This cannot be viewed as a dog "fail" nor a DNA fail either.

They shouldn't have found DNA at the alert sites at all.

It is after the dogs and the initial FSS results that the McCann were officially made Arguidos.

 

[goldengirl57]

This is not a myth according to MSM. There are several articles that were written at the time and it has been discussed in depth here, in Maddie's forum. Did MSM get it wrong? Well you have to decide that for yourself. But, it was well reported that the neighbor complained to staff and staff sent someone to the bar down the street to fetch the McCanns. Kate, herself, gives weight to the story when she tells about Maddie asking her why she (Kate) did not come when Maddie was crying for her.

I think there is an entire thread on this information.

Salem

THANK YOU SALEM, i thought i had written this correctly. :loveyou:

 

[SapphireSteel]

And we have to remember that the MAJORITY of people believe the McCanns. I read some of the reviews of her book on Amazon....Lordy. They have bought their story hook, line, and sinker (not talking about anyone on here, just speaking of the "glowing" reviews she got on Amazon). There were only a small, small minority who gave her 1 or 2 stars and talked about any of the real facts in the case (in the reviews).

So AR has big incentive to try to keep the British public "happy" and not take them to a dark place.

It's pernicious, a good example is that "article" from the Guardian posted earlier which spoke of "malevolent" anti McCann trolls.

The language is just so supportive of the McCanns and so irrationally hostile towards those of us with questions.

It permeates their society, even the BBC come down on the side of the poor unfortunate McCanns with their reporting.

"reporting" I use the word loosely, in the old days the reporters sleuthed the news, they created the news at times, now they just seem to print what their boss tells them to.

 

[goldengirl57]

Maybe he has younger children who use the same clothes now. Or he reads the news and figured out that he was the prime suspect in the abduction and thought that he'd better hold on to the evidence in case anyone ever comes asking.

SURELY unless he was on planet mars he would have heard about the sighting at the time and told the police it was him.........oh he probably did lol, because i did hear from a friend in portugal that the tanner sighting was dismissed so i am assuming the police knew who it was all along. I believe actually amaral does say it was dismissed.

No it makes no sense....

 

[SapphireSteel]

SURELY unless he was on planet mars he would have heard about the sighting at the time and told the police it was him.........oh he probably did lol, because i did hear from a friend in portugal that the tanner sighting was dismissed so i am assuming the police knew who it was all along. I believe actually amaral does say it was dismissed.

No it makes no sense....

I hope Amaral is enjoying being proven right.

As far as I can tell, SY are virtually following in his footsteps.

 

[aa9511]

Well someone's lying.

It's either AR, the McCanns, or the dogs and the entire PJ.

Pick a team - which one is most trustworthy?

I'm backing the dogs, they have no ulterior motive.

The dogs say M died in 5a.

:seeya:

And we have to remember that the MAJORITY of people believe the McCanns. I read some of the reviews of her book on Amazon....Lordy. They have bought their story hook, line, and sinker (not talking about anyone on here, just speaking of the "glowing" reviews she got on Amazon). There were only a small, small minority who gave her 1 or 2 stars and talked about any of the real facts in the case (in the reviews).

So AR has big incentive to try to keep the British public "happy" and not take them to a dark place.

 

[BOESP]

The inexplicable part is that DNA was found at all, at all of the alert sites.

This tells me the dogs alerted correctly - the science has backed them up.

Why would a cadaver dog alert to cuddle cat? No one has a good explanation for that one. Cadaver alerts on cuddle cat indicates that Madeleine died in 5a, holding or somehow laying on cuddle cat.

Further, the PJ report specifically says the dogs are highly accurate.

Imo, it is obtuse to not consider the cadaver scent alerted to by the dogs on cuddle cat. That scent seems compelling to me but then I have confidence in the dogs and their abilities to detect odors from dead bodies. Truly, how many dead bodies would have had contact with Madeleine's stuffed animal? :snooty:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Imo, it is obtuse to not consider the cadaver scent alerted to by the dogs on cuddle cat. That scent seems compelling to me but then I have confidence in the dogs and their abilities to detect odors from dead bodies. Truly, how many dead bodies would have had contact with Madeleine's stuffed animal? :snooty:

About as many as made it into the trunk of the Renault.

One, very small one.

:sick:

This case is so deeply disturbing in so many ways. It really is no wonder people struggle to accept certain scenarios...heck I even don't want to think what I'm seriously starting to think, but it's the only theory that makes everything else fall into place. I still haven't seriously contemplated the details though, its just too hideous.

 

[goldengirl57]

I've read this and there are problems with it.
Grime's explanation on how the dogs are trained and what they respond to is different to the August 2007 explanation. I have read much on these conflicting descriptions including a piece that explains that Grimes has been tutored in what to say in the future.
Descriptions prior to August 2007 suggest the two dogs are experts in their own fields respectively and that Eddie doesn't respond to blood and that Keela is the blood dog. Earlier explanations suggest Eddie only ever responds to certain chemicals released when a human body expires, i.e certain bodily fluids released postmortem.
When Eddie finds what he's looking for then Keela goes in and tries to find blood.
Grime's description is now that they are both blood dogs and both respond to blood. If that is the case then we only need one dog not two.
Why are the FBI interested in how Eddie was trained to find Cadaver if he is just a bog standard blood dog?
This is evidence that Grimes has been told to keep his trap shut in my opinion and I'm not the only one.

EXACTLY.

Actually they used the dogs in gloucester where i live when a farmers wife went missing. Eddie scented death behind the settee, and keela was brought in and they found a tiny trace of blood.

The guy was found guilty without a body but said he never killed his wife etc. Eventually he confessed and said he struck her, strangled her and put her body behind the settee until he could bury her.

I am sooooooooo tired of the dogs. The dogs are highly trained.

They cannot say whos scent they can smell just that its there.

Why did Eddie pick items of clothings scattered on the ground, even barked at a car belonging to the mccanns.....

The only other theory is someone has framed them by placing scent everywhere.....

Anyway the dogs are the sticking point but are hearsay as they cannot tell us who the scent belongs to.