Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[aa9511]

EXACTLY.

Actually they used the dogs in gloucester where i live when a farmers wife went missing. Eddie scented death behind the settee, and keela was brought in and they found a tiny trace of blood.

The guy was found guilty without a body but said he never killed his wife etc. Eventually he confessed and said he struck her, strangled her and put her body behind the settee until he could bury her.

I am sooooooooo tired of the dogs. The dogs are highly trained.

They cannot say whos scent they can smell just that its there.

Why did Eddie pick items of clothings scattered on the ground, even barked at a car belonging to the mccanns.....

The only other theory is someone has framed them by placing scent everywhere.....

Anyway the dogs are the sticking point but are hearsay as they cannot tell us who the scent belongs to.

The reason it keeps going back to the dogs is because that is a big thorn in the side of the intruder theory. There is no way, IMO, to get around the MDI theory with the cadaver dogs and what they found.

 

[Morag]

It's part of the source documents, sorry I assume everyone knows what the PJ's final report says. :scared:

From this report, sbm for brevity and relevance -


In this way, from pages 1989 and following, one can read the full report by MARK HARRISON, whose specialty is the search for missing people or homicide victims, including catastrophe scenarios. He provided the use of canines, specialized in the detection of vestiges of human blood and human cadaver odor.

This is an inspection technique commonly used in the United Kingdom, frequently with positive results, consisting of the utilization of two especially trained dogs.

One of the dogs is trained to detect cadaver odor and the other to detect vestiges of human blood, with existing knowledge that their prior usage had resulted in significant results, principally in the detection of vestiges, which had then been, later, confirmed in the laboratory.

After a positive joint meeting with the British police, it was decided to use this capability and a large number of objects and locations were examined, with these diligences being recorded in films which are included in the documentation (appendix III).

In some of these locations and objects, the animals exhibited the behaviour of identification and "signaling", including:

pages 37 and 38

1 - Apartment 5A, of the resort 'Ocean Club', place from where the child disappeared.

- cadaver odour dog:
*in the couple’s bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe;
*in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment;

- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog);

2 – Area of the backyard, close to the apartment 5A:

- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, commented by the dog handler the lightness of the scent detected;

6 – In the clothes and belongings of the Family MCCANN

- cadaver odour dog:
* in two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY
* in a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE
* in the plush toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (it was detected cadaver odour, when the plush was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)

7 – In the vehicle used by the MCCANN family


- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle;

- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle;
* signalled the interior of the vehicle’s boot;

8 – In the vehicle used by a friend of the family, who stayed in the same resort, matching some of the holiday days.
* NOTHING was detected by either dog;


(in a total of ten vehicles, the cadaver odour dog and the blood odour dog only signaled the vehicle that belonged to the MCCANN family, which was rented on the 27th of May)

On the locations and the pieces that were marked and signaled by the blood dog, forensics tests were performed, especially at a reputed British laboratory (Forensic Science Service – check Appendixes I and VII – FSS Final Report) but also, some of them at the reputed National Institute of Forensics Medicine (check Appendix I), whose final results did not corroborate the canine markings, which is to say, cellular material was collected that was not identified as pertaining to anyone specific, and it was not even possible to determine the quality of that material (v.g. whether it could be blood or another type of bodily fluid).

But during a first scientific approach (pages 2617 and following), the possibility of a match between the DNA profile of MADELEINE and some of the collected residues (among which those that existed in the Renault Scenic that had been rented by the McCANN couple were abundant) was raised; a match which, as can be verified in the aforementioned final report from the FSS, failed to be verified, after the execution of long and complex testing.

Based on the action of the canine team and the aforementioned initial scientific approach, which revealed the possibility of the existence of a cadaver inside the apartment and in the vehicle that was used by the MCCANN family, and in order to allow for GERALD McCANN and KATE HEALY to see their position within the process safeguarded, they were made arguidos, in face of the mere possibility of their involvement with the possible cadaver. During the questioning as arguidos, they denied any responsibility in the disappearance of their daughter.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html

So, the bodily fluid was not blood but IIRC Amaral thought it was decomposition fluids, the sample in the Renault anyway.

ETA: I sincerely hope that advances in DNA will make this test more definitive in future, regarding whose it is and how it got there.

Bolded and enlarged font by me.
What's up with number 8?
I thought there were no cars hired by any of the Tapas group during the holiday week?

 

[goldengirl57]

Ahhh Andy

I'll just pop on morning tv before the investigation has even started, and tell everyone what the conclusion is going to be.

:lol:

What amazes me is joe public still believes AR is talking to them. I believe AR is talking directly to the perp.

I LIVE in the UK.

Not once have i heard DC REDWOOD say anything about their enquiry.

At the moment they have trawled through ALL the PJ files for 2 years and have just decided to check on certain things which could lead to some where.

They havent done any real investigative work.

For me ok I have had several MRI scans. The reason for this is to see if I had something else then Multiple Sclerosis, so the scan was used to eliminate every other source that could be causing my problems. It was done as a process of elimination.

This is what the Yard is doing now. They are eliminating ALL other possible sources or scenarios from information that is already in place.

To do so they are ASKING the public to help them with E Fits which again have already been used.

They are investigating burglary's and other things to ELIMINATE them.

We have NO idea what they have in mind. They need to look at abduction by person unknown....doesnt mean the trail will not lead back to Tapas 7 not at all or Murat or any other of the players.

What galls me is the valuable resources that are being used we have our own unsolved crimes in this country lots of cold cases, they should be sorting them out first.

The only one good thing over this is, at least SY will be able to get the mobile phone information that the PJ desperatly asked for but never got.

Anyway its a waiting game....they have been looking through the files for TWO years.........

 

[goldengirl57]

Eddie only detects Cadaver in 5A which is the McCann's apartment but he is also used to check all the other apartments of the Tapas group with no results as well as the other apartment where the McCann's are staying after the event.
People are suggesting that Eddie found blood and not a Cadaver in 5A. Are these people suggesting that no one ever bled in any of the other apartments over all those years of use?
Eddie, if he gets confused by blood would have found blood in all those apartments from previous innocent incidents yet he didn't.
Eddie FOUND DEATH not blood.

I thought on the 2nd August the dog was taken to the villa of the McCanns and shown certain items and reacted to them, red top i think, toy, and other bits, and then was taken to a car park where other cars were parked and pointed to the cans Renault car so it wasnt only the apartment he was used.

He also i believed indicated outside an apartment ABOVE the McCanns..which i have always found of interest.

 

[hoshizora]

I was wondering if someone could answer my question, as I might be missing something.

If the Smiths believe the man they saw was Gerry Mccann and he was carrying a dead Madeleine, why didn't the dogs alert on his clothes?

I do believe the dogs when they found the scent of death and blood in the spots where death was detected, as I find that there is more evidence pointing to Maddie having died in the apartment then there is of an abductor and I cannot ignore that. But this is something I have wondered about.

As I mentioned before in another thread, I do hope SY are considering that she died in the apartment and are just trying to rule out every theory.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The important part is that they swabbed all over, and the only the areas the dogs alerted to showed a DNA result.

Instead of saying "the cups half empty" ie, we got DNA but it's useless, you could look at it "half full", sleuthing wise, as needing an explanation for occurring in these unusual and isolated places in the first place.

They swabbed a million places and DNA consistent with Madeleine's was located in both the cadaver and the blood alert sites only. This cannot be viewed as a dog "fail" nor a DNA fail either.

They shouldn't have found DNA at the alert sites at all.

It is after the dogs and the initial FSS results that the McCann were officially made Arguidos.

So your saying that they swabbed all over and they only got DNA that was "consistent" with Madeleine's where the HRD dogs alerted? Or are you saying that they only swabbed for DNA where the dogs alerted?

I don't feel that "consistent" means a match. And if LE found some DNA that was "consistent" with Madeline at an alert site where she would be expected to be I don't see that as being profound at all.

I would expect that Madeleine's DNA should have been found anywhere she was known to be and anywhere it's reasonable for a transfer to take place. MOO.

 

[goldengirl57]

I was wondering if someone could answer my question, as I might be missing something.

If the Smiths believe the man they saw was Gerry Mccann and he was carrying a dead Madeleine, why didn't the dogs alert on his clothes?

I do believe the dogs when they found the scent of death and blood in the spots where death was detected, as I find that there is more evidence pointing to Maddie having died in the apartment then there is of an abductor and I cannot ignore that. But this is something I have wondered about.

As I mentioned before in another thread, I do hope SY are considering that she died in the apartment and are just trying to rule out every theory.

Very good point, although when they saw the man carrying the child they didnt take much notice it was just normal to see kids being carried home from baby sitters and creche.

He only thought it could be McCann because he saw him coming down the steps on a plane and the way he was carrying the child made him sit up and think about the sighting.

I think the Efit which they supplied back in 2008 was transferred from their brain they had GM in their mind and it came out that way.

There is NO WAY after 6 years could i actually say what a person looked like, BUT if i still had this photo constantly in my head then it would be easy to give an Efit looking like GM if any of that makes any sense.

So like JT sighting, I dont believe this sighting or that it was GM.

As to the dogs alerting they did alert to wardrobe, clothing in their new villa, cat toy, maddys clothing and Kates, and the Renault and the key fob area....GM could have easily have picked up the cat and her clothing to transfer scent, the key fob and the renault boot....

Anyway very good point.

Its really sad that for 6 years everyone believed the tanner sighting, it was pushed by the McCanns PR, everyone. The EFIT was pushed even on crimewatch programmes her EFIT, yet he never existed...obsfucation and lies.....

So wild goose chase really.

I do not believe the creche dad did not come forward or was not eliminated, that is why the PJ eventually decided to stop the process as there was no where else to go. The Smith sighting was dismissed and zapped because Mr Smith said he thought it was less then 20percent likely it WASNT Gerry McCann...ZAPPED, Carter Rucked never to be seen again lol....from 2008.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I think that whenever there is a positive alert by a scent detection dog that is not verified by other evidence, it is possible that the alert is a false positive. Cueing by the dog handler can be a possible explanation.

It may be more parsimonious to suggest that dogs respond not only to scent, but to additional cues issued by handlers as well. This is especially plausible since, in training, alerts are originally elicited through overt handler cueing. Cueing in initial training may include overt cues, verbal commands and physical prompting. Cues may also include more subtle unintentional cues given by handlers such as differences in handler proximity to the dog according to scent location, gaze and gesture cues, and postural cues.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-010-0373-2/fulltext.html

 

[BOESP]

I think some, apparently, have confused evidence gathering with a prosecution in a court of law. It is up to investigators to gather as much evidence as possible based on accepted police procedural. That evidence will be evaluated by the prosecution and presented in court. At that point the defense can argue the fine points. It is futile to keep kicking the shins of the people gathering the evidence and implying there is some conspiracy to get the McCanns by hook or crook.

 

[gord]

So your saying that they swabbed all over and they only got DNA that was "consistent" with Madeleine's where the HRD dogs alerted? Or are you saying that they only swabbed for DNA where the dogs alerted?

I don't feel that "consistent" means a match. And if LE found some DNA that was "consistent" with Madeline at an alert site where she would be expected to be I don't see that as being profound at all.

I would expect that Madeleine's DNA should have been found anywhere she was known to be and anywhere it's reasonable for a transfer to take place. MOO.

The trace DNA found in the hire car was consistent with up to 5 people including both siblings and parents - considering madeleine would get 50% of her DNA from mum and 50% from Dad - then it tells us very little apart from someone from the McCann line used the car which is they did .

The trace DNA found in the flat was so weak that they couldn't even tell what type of fluid let alone who it came from.

 

[Donjeta]

SURELY unless he was on planet mars he would have heard about the sighting at the time and told the police it was him.........oh he probably did lol, because i did hear from a friend in portugal that the tanner sighting was dismissed so i am assuming the police knew who it was all along. I believe actually amaral does say it was dismissed.

No it makes no sense....

I'm sure he heard about the sighting and I think that AR implied that he did.

But I'm not so sure that everybody would have been so keen to get mixed up in a notorious crime case and tell the police "hey, your main suspect, actually it's me".

It happens that important witnesses keep their quiet. People might think that their testimony doesn't matter because they're not involved or be afraid that they won't be believed and that they will become suspects, at least in the minds of the general public if not the police, and they don't want the notoriety and don't want to be bothered with depositions and testifying in court and figure that it's just easier overall to shut up and mind your own business.

MOO.

 

[gord]

Bolded and enlarged font by me.
What's up with number 8?
I thought there were no cars hired by any of the Tapas group during the holiday week?

they didn't the dogs didn't arrive until August - nearly three months later

by this time they had hired a car and also some friends who had come out to support also had a vehicle

 

[Morag]

they didn't the dogs didn't arrive until August - nearly three months later

by this time they had hired a car and also some friends who had come out to support also had a vehicle

Yes, I know that they hired a car, and I knew that friends and family had also, over the course of the summer... But the phrase that puzzled me was:"...matching some of the holiday days". I took that to be an overlap with the actual holiday week (beginning April 29-30). I didn't consider any days after May 5 or so could be considered holiday days.

 

[gord]

Yes, I know that they hired a car, and I knew that friends and family had also, over the course of the summer... But the phrase that puzzled me was:"...matching some of the holiday days". I took that to be an overlap with the actual holiday week (beginning April 29-30). I didn't consider any days after May 5 or so could be considered holiday days.

yes see what you mean - don't know . If they had a friend of the family who was there at the time it is a new one to me - maybe a translation thing ?

certainly haven't any statements from said friend

 

[Jackalyn]

My understanding is that the dogs and car were all disproven. Kate, being a G.P might well have come into contact with death as a G.P here has to visit if a death occurs at home. I think they are supposed to register the cause of death. I would imagine she could have proved what went on before the holiday in her practice from practice records, but I have never heard if that was looked at. The transfer of any 'smell of death' could be from her being at work and then collecting and looking after Madeleine on a day when she was the G.P called to a home with a home bereavement. I think there is also an inquest when that happens, so proof of Kate's contact has to be evident? I Madeleine was at a childminder or nursery, proof of where she was and Kate's subsequent movements would be there as all of them have, by law, to keep records and parents usually sign they took their child.

If there had been a way to prove the Mccanns did anything to Maddie the PJ would have been all over it as they clearly wanted them to be guilty.

On another note, if a window was open and you had two babies in a room, even if you knew there had been a break in, if you believed your other child had been abducted, would you not, perhaps automatically, close that window. Would that explain why it is not open? Would that explain why the window was closed from the inside? I think, if those babies appeared to be asleep, I would also have left them, but closed a window thinking of the draft. (So what was the weather like that night?) Might I do this in a daze, not thinking of the consequences of doing so?

 

[Jackalyn]

This may look like I switched camps and think the Mccann's guilty. I haven't. But there is one thing I do have at the back of my own thinking. It is what I know from having had a relative work for MI6, and that where I live is a recruiting ground, (Top University town.) When people are approached to work for them they ask: "are you prepared to lie for your country for the good of the country," -or something like that. Do not ask me how I know!

 

[Pisces Cloud]

EXACTLY.

Actually they used the dogs in gloucester where i live when a farmers wife went missing. Eddie scented death behind the settee, and keela was brought in and they found a tiny trace of blood.

The guy was found guilty without a body but said he never killed his wife etc. Eventually he confessed and said he struck her, strangled her and put her body behind the settee until he could bury her.

I am sooooooooo tired of the dogs. The dogs are highly trained.

They cannot say whos scent they can smell just that its there.

Why did Eddie pick items of clothings scattered on the ground, even barked at a car belonging to the mccanns.....

The only other theory is someone has framed them by placing scent everywhere.....

Anyway the dogs are the sticking point but are hearsay as they cannot tell us who the scent belongs to.

I would imagine that the longer a body has been there and a lot easier it will be for the dogs. There's bound to be a margin of error with regards to the length of time. I can't help but think that if Madeleine did die in her apartment then it would have been miraculous if the dogs detected it 100%.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think I'll take a break until we have something new to chew over, which I'm sure will happen soon. lease:

Until then its just going over the same old criticism of the dogs, the pj, the forensics, which I'm finding increasingly inaccurate as new facts emerge.

The British are essentially recreating Amarals investigation. It remains to be seen if they can get the cooperation of the main players where the PJ failed.

:seeya:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I would imagine that the longer a body is there and a lot easier it will be for the dogs. There's bound to be a margin of error with regards to the length of time. I can't help but think that if Madeleine did die in her apartment then it would have been miraculous if the dogs detected it 100%.

Excellent point about the cadaver scent not being on Gerry.

Did Gerry change that night? All these men look like they dress the same, all wearing chino pants and checked short sleeved shirts. I suppose replacement clothing could easily be found. Kate, not so much, she was tiny. She could possibly have worn Madeleine's clothing!

The PJ believe it was madeleine's decomposition which left the Renault alert so she was handled when very, very dead. I imagine more scent molecules are left depending on how far the decomp has gone. In M's case the suggestion is 20 days.

 

[Morag]

yes see what you mean - don't know . If they had a friend of the family who was there at the time it is a new one to me - maybe a translation thing ?

certainly haven't any statements from said friend

Here's an article about the people whose stay "matched some of the holiday days." Oddly, I wasn't able to pull this story from the DM. The original link failed, and I had to search a bit for it. This car might have been available for the O'Briens or the McCanns at some point.


http://www.pressmon.com/cgi-bin/press_view.cgi?id=142463

MADELEINE: BRITISH FAMILY DENY ‘RIDICULOUS‘ LINKS TO DISAPPEARANCE
The Daily Mail, 13/08/2007


Charlotte Gorrod: Branded suggestions her family may have been involved in Madeleine‘s disappearance ‘ridiculous‘ A British family who have been linked by police in Portugal to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann today denied any involvement in the case.

James Gorrod, 34, and his blonde–haired wife Charlotte, 32, branded any suggestions of their involvement "ridiculous".

The couple were holidaying in the same Portuguese resort at around the same time as the McCanns.

Coincidentally the Gorrods are friends of Dr Russell O‘Brien and his partner Jane Tanner – who are close friends of the McCanns – and met the O‘Brien famly at the resort.

Mr Gorrod was drawn into the inquiry after Portuguese police discovered he had hired a car at Faro airport and asked for a child‘s seat.

His wife Charlotte today described any suggested links to the disappearance of four–year–old Madeleine as "ridiculous".

She said she was baffled that Portuguese police has not spoke to them while they were on holiday even though they offered to help.

The couple live in a three–bedroom semi–detached house in Egham Avenue, Exeter, which is just two streets away from the home of hospital consultant Dr O‘Brien and his partner Jane.

James Gorrod: Hired car and baby seat The Gorrod family explained that they needed the car seat for their two year old son William and had had to arrange their own transport transfer from the airport.

Mrs Gorrod said: "This is all absolutely ridiculous. "We know Dr O‘Brien and Jane Tanner because we both have children of about the same age and we were staying in the same resort.

"At the time the Portuguese police asked the O‘Briens if they knew anybody who had access to a car and they gave our names.

"We were happy to talk to the police but they did not approach us. We know what is being said now and it is ridiculous.

"The car has been checked out and there is no problem. "It is surprising it has come up now and very upsetting for me because I have just come out of hospital after giving birth to my second child.

"We have been told that the family and friends of the McCanns are not under suspicion.

"My husband has spoken to the police and given them all the details of the car.

"We just want to help really and we could do without all this hassle. Scroll down for more... "My husband was on holiday with myself and our son who is aged two. And that is why we needed a baby seat.

"It was our last chance to have a holiday before I got too pregnant to fly.

"The reason we needed to hire a car was because we were not on the Mark Warner holiday and so we didn‘t have an airport transfer for the two hour trip from Faro." The parents of Madeleine McCann have finally acknowledged the terrible possibility that their daughter has been killed.

Kate McCann admitted yesterday she would rather know that her daughter was dead than never discover what happened to her.